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Burgie1996

Diana Stanley - cancel/ignore

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46 minutes ago, Astrophil84 said:

In my understanding, you have to discard Grotesque Statue before you can trigger Diana‘s reaction.

But you could trigger it after you spent the penultimate charge.

So what would the order of play be here? 

Which happens first? Discarding the statue? Or activating Diana’s ability?

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6 hours ago, Astrophil84 said:

In my understanding, you have to discard Grotesque Statue before you can trigger Diana‘s reaction.

Surely that doesn't matter, since you also discard events when you play them, but can still put them under Diana. That implies that her ability can pull cards out of the discard to put them under her.

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1 hour ago, rsdockery said:

Surely that doesn't matter, since you also discard events when you play them, but can still put them under Diana. That implies that her ability can pull cards out of the discard to put them under her.

The difference is, an event is placed on the discard pile after the effect resolved.

Quote

Any time a player plays an event card, its costs are paid, its effects are resolved (or canceled), and the card is placed in its owner’s discard pile after those effects resolve (or are canceled).

Therefore you can trigger Diana‘s reaction while the event card is still in play.

For the reaction on Grotesque Statue you have to spend a charge as an additional cost. If the Grotesque Statue has no charges, you discard it. So you have to discard it before the cancelling effect takes place. When Diana‘s reaction could trigger, the Grotesque Statue is already in the discard pile.

I may be wrong but that‘s how I understand the rules.

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I think we should be able to put the statue below Diana even if it is the last charge. If the discard is as soon as the last charge is used, then we couldn't use the effect on the last charge since the card is no longer in play. So I think the discard would have to happen after the effect resolves which in turn allows Diana to interrupt the process and put it under her.

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4 hours ago, DarkFate said:

I think we should be able to put the statue below Diana even if it is the last charge. If the discard is as soon as the last charge is used, then we couldn't use the effect on the last charge since the card is no longer in play. So I think the discard would have to happen after the effect resolves which in turn allows Diana to interrupt the process and put it under her.

A card doesn't have to stay in play throughout the resolution of its abilities. It just has to be there when you initiate the ability. For instance, Beat Cop (0) doesn't stop working just because you discarded it to pay for its ability. Same goes for Grotesque Statue's last charge.

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9 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

A card doesn't have to stay in play throughout the resolution of its abilities. It just has to be there when you initiate the ability. For instance, Beat Cop (0) doesn't stop working just because you discarded it to pay for its ability. Same goes for Grotesque Statue's last charge.

Or knife which is explicit that it is discarded before you attack.

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I think Grotesque Statue goes under Diana before it's discarded as it is the completion of ignoring the effect that triggers her ability. If you look at the definition of "After" in the RR, it makes this clear.

 

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Saying that, "When", tells us that Grotesque Statue is discarded before it's impact on the game state. So it is effectively discarded before the ignoring effect takes place....so I'd say you'd have to initiate Diana's ability before the final charge is used.

Ugh!! Sorry about that.

 

Edited by bern1106

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I am not so sure.

"After a card you own cancels or ignores a card effect or game effect, if there are fewer than 5 cards beneath Diana Stanley: Place that card facedown beneath her. Draw 1 card and gain 1 resource. (Limit once per phase.) "

So you just have to own the card, not control it.  You own cards in your discard.

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1 hour ago, Jobu said:

I am not so sure.

"After a card you own cancels or ignores a card effect or game effect, if there are fewer than 5 cards beneath Diana Stanley: Place that card facedown beneath her. Draw 1 card and gain 1 resource. (Limit once per phase.) "

So you just have to own the card, not control it.  You own cards in your discard.

But your discard is an out-of-play area, which means abilities can only interact with it if they specifically say they can.

I’ve gone back and forth on this since the question was posted, but I’m now leaning towards Grotesque Statue being in the discard pile as soon as the last charge is spent, which prevents Diana’s “after” reaction from interacting with it, since it is no longer in play.

The timing of “when” and “after” are clear, but “if” seems to get much less attention in the Rules Reference. I’m inclined to believe that “if” effects happen immediately at the instant they become true, but I could be wrong.

Edited by Assussanni

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3 hours ago, Jobu said:

I am not so sure.

"After a card you own cancels or ignores a card effect or game effect, if there are fewer than 5 cards beneath Diana Stanley: Place that card facedown beneath her. Draw 1 card and gain 1 resource. (Limit once per phase.) "

So you just have to own the card, not control it.  You own cards in your discard.

I agree with Assussanni.

I think the part „a card you own“ just excludes cards from your fellow investigators and encounter cards.

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As far as I read the rules, "Ownership and Control", you still own the card while it is in your discard pile.

A card’s owner is the player whose deck (or game area) held the card at the start of the game.

A player controls the cards located in his or her out-of-play game areas (such as the hand, deck, discard pile).

Thus even if the statue is in your discard pile it is still a card you own and the reaction to the effect could trigger.

Edited by Rutan

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Events do not enter play while being played (unless they are explicitly put into play by their own effects). That doesn't stop Diana's reaction from working on them (they're probably in the discard pile when the reaction is triggered). So I don't see why it couldn't pull an asset from the discard pile.

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47 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Events do not enter play while being played (unless they are explicitly put into play by their own effects). That doesn't stop Diana's reaction from working on them (they're probably in the discard pile when the reaction is triggered). So I don't see why it couldn't pull an asset from the discard pile.

I'd argue that Events and Skills are in play after they have been played or committed respectively until they are discarded, which for Events is "the card is placed in its owner's discard pile after [its] effects resolve" and Skills is during ST.8 "discard all cards that were committed to this skill test".

Therefore, I'd say Diana's ability can react to the cancelling/ignoring effect of an Event before it is placed in her discard pile.

Like I say, I'm not sure myself. I'll submit a Rules Query later and get back to you. While I'm at it I'll also ask about Defiance and Marksmanship's validity if they don't actually "trigger" if no-one has seen official answers for these yet.

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3 hours ago, Rutan said:

As far as I read the rules, "Ownership and Control", you still own the card while it is in your discard pile.

A card’s owner is the player whose deck (or game area) held the card at the start of the game.

A player controls the cards located in his or her out-of-play game areas (such as the hand, deck, discard pile).

Thus even if the statue is in your discard pile it is still a card you own and the reaction to the effect could trigger.

It's not a question of card ownership and control. (You do own and control the Grotesque Statue in the discard pile.)

The relevant paragraph of the Rules Reference is:

Quote

Card abilities only interact with other cards that are in play, unless the ability specifically references an interaction with cards in an out-of-play area.

I'd say Diana's reaction doesn't "specifically [reference] an interaction with cards in an out-of-play area."

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21 minutes ago, Astrophil84 said:

I'd say Diana's reaction doesn't "specifically [reference] an interaction with cards in an out-of-play area."
 

I'd say it does, because of the word "after." In the great majority of cases (certainly nearly all pertinent event cards), the card will be in the discard after the cancellation.

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