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Children of Bushidō

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And after read this, I want both Daisetsu and Sotori's cards :D, lol

Anyway, in a possible civil war scenario, who will stand for Sotori? So many people in my opinion...

For example, if Unicorn will follow Daisetsu, you can easily have Lion going on the other side (maybe also naming a new champion over Tutori?). Maybe also Phoenix will support Sotori, for stay on tradition (first heir).

Crab and Mantis could move for power or "money": Crab need more jade, Mantis could ask for be a great clan.

To be honest, except for Unicorn and Scorpion, who will, in my opinion, support Daisetsu; all other clans are on 50% and they will choose what they think is more profitable in their opinion (power and influence)

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The thing in this story is that it presents both heirs as unfit to rule. Sotorii for obvious reasons, Daisetsu for his lack of respect and understanding of traditions and Bushido. 

Yeah, his behavior called for a compensation. Nobody can expect to insult the crown prince and go away with that. Maybe a duel was a bit too far, but even then, Daisetsu failed to respect that way of solving things. The same he thinks torture is outrageous and unjust (really, that’s a thought that a monarch shouldn’t have. Some things just must be done for the greater good), he doesn’t respect Bushido enough to give a duel the consideration and importance it requires. Dairu is aware, and that’s why he answer to the duel, because he sees the insult to honor in the behavior of both princes. 

I don’t remember who said it, but somebody accused Daisetsu of “weak” in one fiction, and other said that Sotorii was “cruel”. That’s where the conflict will grow, not on how likable are each one.

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12 hours ago, Mangod said:

So, what do you think Part 2 of the story will be? Something that's affected by a story choice later on, or just a predetermined "Daisetsu takes Dairu's place, wins the duel, and the reason Sotorii can't wield the sword from Imperial Gifts is because Daisetsu hacked him in the wrist"?

Judging for the art in the fiction, I said that’s highly unlikely. Sotorii wins, and wounds Dairu?

4 hours ago, Victarion13 said:

And after read this, I want both Daisetsu and Sotori's cards :D, lol

Again, based on the art for the fiction, we’ll probably get them. So far nearly every art used in the fictions has been a card at the moment, or used for a card at a future point. So Sotorii’s card I think it’s a sure thing. 

It better be a very good card, or I’m not putting it near any of my decks. Heck, even if it’s an OP card, I’m not sure I’ll use it.

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11 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Daisetsu Fu Leng may be an a-hole but you can't go mouthing off to somebody and not expect to have to wave two feet of forged steel in each other's faces.

He actually did, and was just about to dismiss Sotorii and put him to his place when Dairu ruined the scene:

Quote

Daisetsu bit back the laugh and opened his mouth to perfunctorily dismiss Sotorii and return to his amusement with Dairu, but the Scorpion spoke first, standing as he did.

 

9 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

And yet, in Old5R Matsu Tsuko stands for actually possessed by Fu Leng Sotorii.

She was more like standing against Toturi, and, uh, as far as I know, the whole ordeal became a kind of a meme and did considerable damage to her character. 

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5 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

The thing in this story is that it presents both heirs as unfit to rule. Sotorii for obvious reasons, Daisetsu for his lack of respect and understanding of traditions and Bushido. 

Hantei Sotorii would be a bad Emperor, possibly one so bad as to rival Hantei XVI (but not likely to do so). Hantei Daisetsu, on the other hand, is shaping up to be the LAST Emperor, as all it would take is one solid disillusionment in Bushido, and he'll be on the path of tearing the whole system down.

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5 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Judging for the art in the fiction, I said that’s highly unlikely. Sotorii wins, and wounds Dairu?

I don't know, judging by the text;

Quote

“Yes,” Jodan said. “My sons, and their…duel.”

“My son was involved as well, your majesty. Dairu gave me his recounting of what happened—but you have not described what happened to me in more than a passing way.”

it sounds like it was Daisetsu and Sotorii who fought, with Dairu as the witness, not as an active participant.

5 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

[...] he doesn’t respect Bushido enough to give a duel the consideration and importance it requires.

On the other hand, calling for a duel over your younger brother telling you to buzz off certainly doesn't make it sound like Sotorii respects the seriousness of the situation, either.

I'm reminded of this story where an RPG group had a falling out over the Kakita of the group challening someone to a duel to the death over them not refusing a gift of tea twice before accepting, as is custom.

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13 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Not every character needs to be interesting, unique or a tragic soul. Sotorii seems to be set up as a catalyst rather than an antagonist. Sometimes you just need a simple evil character to make a mess of things so you can focus on the protagonists trying to fix things.

Bolded the part where you're actually wrong.

If a character is not interesting, then they have no business whatsoever being there- we are not reading War & Peace, we are reading extremely limited releases of fiction where word count is at a premium- we are juggling seven Great Clans, plus the Mantis subplot, plus Imperials, and we are not actually getting all that much to go on.

"Because I'm eeeeeeeeeeeevil" can work for someone who shows up once or twice. But for a character who is... kind of a load-bearing plot element, we need more.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

He actually did, and was just about to dismiss Sotorii and put him to his place when Dairu ruined the scene:

Exactly. He was just about to take a duel as a joke and laugh about it. He was not going to put Sotorii in his place, he was about to dishonor himself. Luckily, Dairu understood the seriousness of the situation, and acted accordingly. 

If he thought that the matter didn’t required a duel (which I think it didn’t, don’t get me wrong), he should’ve spoken to their lord (the Emperor) to ask permission to duel. If the lord(s) of the duelista think a duel is too much for a certain situation, they can dismiss it. 

36 minutes ago, Mangod said:

I don't know, judging by the text

I meant the part about Sotorii losing. Whoever he fought, it seems he won. 

38 minutes ago, Mangod said:

I'm reminded of this story where an RPG group had a falling out over the Kakita of the group challening someone to a duel to the death over them not refusing a gift of tea twice before accepting, as is custom.

As I said up there, as the challenged, I would had bring this duel into consideration of my lord. And seriously, the lord of the Kakita will probably negate the duel and punish the Kakita for calling a duel over such a triviality. That’s the way to go, not laughing at someone challenging you to a duel. 

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I'm calling it:  Sotorii is faking...........to some extent

He's just trying to see how far he can take the spoiled heir act and gauging how people respond to him.  Testing those around him to see if they will just follow blindly or if they will stand up to him.  To what end, I don't know.  At some point he'll to pull the curtain back and say "I was a nice guy all along I just needed to know for sure you would not follow a villain" or "I know who's with me and against me, time to start cleaning house"

He's probably a villain, but, I don't think he's actually the spoiled brat he has been portrayed so far.

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assuming they're not in CotE (doesn't seem to be room for them based on revealed cards) I'm betting on the princes featuring in the next cycle and tying into the theme (bushi/war theme, perhaps)? I really hope they include something in their textbox that doesn't allow you to have both princes in your deck. 

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26 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Exactly. He was just about to take a duel as a joke and laugh about it.

To be honest, it was a joke. I don't even think that Sotorii could legally challenge not!Daigotsu, as not!Daigotsu has not passed his gempukku yet. As not!Daigotsu said, the challenge was a farce. Now, Dairu's counter-challenge over the challenge was very much real and legitimate. 

16 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm calling it:  Sotorii is faking...........to some extent

My theory is that he is up to a MAJOR humbling. Like, Tsuko-realizes-she-was-wrong-all-along-and-Toturi-just-nods tier humbling. Then he has to piece himself together, ronin!Toturi style, while not!Daigotsu turns Heel. 

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14 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

My theory is that he is up to a MAJOR humbling. Like, Tsuko-realizes-she-was-wrong-all-along-and-Toturi-just-nods tier humbling. Then he has to piece himself together, ronin!Toturi style, while not!Daigotsu turns Heel. 

Or....................

Soturii stumbles into Togashi, after having spent a night in a den of pleasures.  Togashi's eyes roll back into his head and he babbles something ridiculous.  Sotorii is so hopped up on drugs that his mind is blown, he sees the error of his ways and heads off to the Dragon lands to become a monk...........but, there is a twist.  It turns out it wasn't really Togashi at all.  It was just a random peddler wearing one of his festival masks that he was trying to sell to Soturii.

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8 hours ago, Victarion13 said:

And after read this, I want both Daisetsu and Sotori's cards :D, lol

Anyway, in a possible civil war scenario, who will stand for Sotori? So many people in my opinion...

For example, if Unicorn will follow Daisetsu, you can easily have Lion going on the other side (maybe also naming a new champion over Tutori?). Maybe also Phoenix will support Sotori, for stay on tradition (first heir).

Crab and Mantis could move for power or "money": Crab need more jade, Mantis could ask for be a great clan.

To be honest, except for Unicorn and Scorpion, who will, in my opinion, support Daisetsu; all other clans are on 50% and they will choose what they think is more profitable in their opinion (power and influence)

A lot will depend on how the abdication goes down.

In Theory the Scorpion should be team Daisetsu what with Shoju being the regent. 

Lion should likely fall in that camp as well since they are bound to follow the will of the Hantei and Toturi as the clan champion should follow suit. 

In theory that should put the Crane and Unicorn who are at odds with the Scorpion and Lion more inclined to support the heir they aren't supporting. 

And assuming that is the case then it becomes for more likely that the Phoenix based on their closer ties with the Lion through Kaede  and Toturi's marriage and their conflict with the Unicorn over Meishodo should likely fall into team Daisetsu. 

The main stumbling block i can see to that would be Daisetsu taking Shahai as the next Empress may result in the Phoenix seeing him as a lost cause and throwing in against him.  On the Plus side that may also result in the Unicorn coming on side in which case your alliance looks more like Crane and Phoenix on team Sotorii and Scorpion, Lion, Unicorn on team Daisetsu. 

Crab and Dragon are then the spoilers who we really have no serious way of predicting which way they will fall as their loyalty is likely to be decided on the merit of Togashi's vision for the Dragon (which we have to assume is why Mitsu and Hitomi are lurking around the capital waiting for the shoe to drop and support which  ever heir he deems more important) and Crab are essentially which ever one promises us more resources and support.

The question will become whether the Imperial Decree naming Daisetsu as heir ever sees the light of day officially or some how is "disappeared" before it can be made official and the Hantei dies under "mysterious" circumstances clearing the way for Satori to claim his thrown.  That, to me at least, seems the more likely scenario as everything we've seen about Satori suggests that he would be horrible at rallying the troops for an underdog campaign, but is perfectly positioned to be the "evil" Emperor sitting on a usurped throne while the plucky legitimate heir tries and over throw him. 

In that scenario the Scorpion are still likely Team Daisetsu, although now they are also likely being smacked with accusations of attempting to usurp the throne so could face a Scorpion Clan Coup type fall out where if they aren't outright disbanded see their political power severely limited. 

Dragon again are obvious choices for having been positioned to evacuate the true heir and protect him while he works to gather his support so would work as team Daisetsu as well in this scenario. 

Toturi will be the obvious other major casualty of the failed "coup" so Lion will be in a questionable position.  Assuming they support Toturi it should put them on team Daisetsu, but since we know there is a faction actively working to undermine Toturi's influence the failed "coup" gives them the perfect opportunity to oust him from power and install a more agreeable champion, so from a story perspective they are probably better as whole to side with Sotorii, while a small splinter group goes ronin and follows an exiled Toturi in support of Daisetsu (giving us the nucleus for a new Toturi's army if needed).  As a plus for them the Lion can probably also convince Sotorii to authorize them to march to full war on the Unicorn, especially if the Unicorn end up on team Daisetsu.  

Crane are again likely to support Sotorii as the heir and use him to resume their position as the Left Hand of the Emperor and masters of the court that Scorpion had been usurping.  If they do 

Unicorn have two ways they could fall.  The more likely is that Daisetsu will be aided in his escape by Shahai and with the return of Daiyu's daughter, and assuming the anti-Toturi faction engineers a change of leadership in the clan, have no real reason to support Sotorii over Daisetsu, especially since many of his views on Bushido seem to fall more in line with their outsiders view.  Now an interesting twist you could put on this is Shahai either being forced to remain the palace to ensure Daisetsu's escape and continuing as a hostage (and if you want to rub even more salt in the wound having Sotorii take her as his bride to spite his brother).  This still would likely result in Unicorn being pro-Daisetsu, but does maintain the hostage scenario and gives us an interesting reason for a pro-Sotorii faction to manifest, not so much as out of respect but fear for Shahai.  The more likely scenario in my mind though is they will side with Daisetsu and have the Lion sicked on them to escalate the brewing war.

Phoenix are still a question mark.  The more likely is that they will end up on team Sotorii as they don't have a specific dog in the fight and it seems far more likely they will be siding with whom ever is against the Unicorn.  The only real question will be does the elemental imbalance cause push them over to the Emperor has lost the grace of the Heavens so is no longer fit to rule and push them over to Daisetsu.  Seems unlikely if Unicorn are on side but is a possibility.

Crab again it likely comes down to who is offering them greater support.

So in TL/DR summary in the Sotorii takes the throne scenario my predictions are team Sotorii - Crane, Lion, Phoenix (the "honorable" groups) team Daisetsu - Dragon, Scorpion, Unicorn (the "progressives") with Crab playing spoiler.  

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Honestly, @Ishi Tonu has the thought I like about Sotorii.

He's not a spoiled brat.

He's a calculating, thoughtfully evil narcissist who is actually capable of handling and manipulating people around him. And he is building a list of enemies so that when he takes the Throne, he can destroy them absolutely and secure supreme, lasting Imperial power over Rokugan. The "Joffrey" behavior is entirely an act so people underestimate him.

And THAT is why Hantei 38th is actually scared of him. Not that he would be a weak Emperor, but the wrong kind of strong Emperor.

That would be cool.

EDIT TO ADD: And if Hantei 38th doesn't see that, and he's just buying into the hype, it makes the murder of his father and framing of Shoju and Toturi (and his little brother) all the more villainously likely.

Edited by sndwurks

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1 hour ago, sndwurks said:

Honestly, @Ishi Tonu has the thought I like about Sotorii.

He's not a spoiled brat.

He's a calculating, thoughtfully evil narcissist who is actually capable of handling and manipulating people around him. And he is building a list of enemies so that when he takes the Throne, he can destroy them absolutely and secure supreme, lasting Imperial power over Rokugan. The "Joffrey" behavior is entirely an act so people underestimate him.

And THAT is why Hantei 38th is actually scared of him. Not that he would be a weak Emperor, but the wrong kind of strong Emperor.

That would be cool.

EDIT TO ADD: And if Hantei 38th doesn't see that, and he's just buying into the hype, it makes the murder of his father and framing of Shoju and Toturi (and his little brother) all the more villainously likely.

While an interesting theory, it falls apart at the first hurdle for me; why pretend to be a vicious idiot?

Hantei XVI was also a vicious, paranoid, fratricidal monster, but he didn't openly parade that around until his sanity began to crack in his mid-twenties. Until then, he managed to portray himself as compassionate, clever, honorable and intelligent.

All we've seen of Sotorii thus far is someone who's only alienating the movers and shakers of the Empire, without binding anyone to him, and I don't see for what purpose.

Edited by Mangod

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21 minutes ago, Mangod said:

While an interesting theory, it falls apart at the first hurdle for me; why pretend to be a vicious idiot?

Because it should not matter that he's a vicious idiot.

He's the son of the Emperor and the crown prince. Anyone who has a problem with his behavior is a potential threat to his power, and when he HAS the authority he will be given, he will know who is truly loyal and who he must destroy.

I sincerely doubt that this is how Sotorii is going to shake out. But it would be fun.

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35 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Because it should not matter that he's a vicious idiot.

He's the son of the Emperor and the crown prince. Anyone who has a problem with his behavior is a potential threat to his power, and when he HAS the authority he will be given, he will know who is truly loyal and who he must destroy.

In theory, sure. But in practice, rulers who behave that way have problems in a hurry. Yes, in Rokugan there's this whole "you're the descendant of a divine figure" thing -- but the same's been true of many real-world rulers in history, and they've found out the hard way that if you try to say "it doesn't matter if I'm a vicious idiot and none of you like me; I'm in power and I can obliterate anybody who opposes me," you don't get very far. There are all kinds of methods both great and small to make life difficult for such a ruler. . . and that's before you get to things like just straight-up assassinating him, or announcing that he's gone into "seclusion" and appointed somebody else to handle all those tedious day-to-day affairs.

Not saying this couldn't be Sotorii's grand plan. Just that you have to lean pretty bloody hard on "but magic!!!" to make it a viable plan.

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1 hour ago, Kinzen said:

In theory, sure. But in practice, rulers who behave that way have problems in a hurry. Yes, in Rokugan there's this whole "you're the descendant of a divine figure" thing -- but the same's been true of many real-world rulers in history, and they've found out the hard way that if you try to say "it doesn't matter if I'm a vicious idiot and none of you like me; I'm in power and I can obliterate anybody who opposes me," you don't get very far. There are all kinds of methods both great and small to make life difficult for such a ruler. . . and that's before you get to things like just straight-up assassinating him, or announcing that he's gone into "seclusion" and appointed somebody else to handle all those tedious day-to-day affairs.

Not saying this couldn't be Sotorii's grand plan. Just that you have to lean pretty bloody hard on "but magic!!!" to make it a viable plan.

While we have had divine right monarchs in the real world, it is very infrequent that the Sun itself comes down out of Heaven to go "Yeah, this is my grand kid." Which is basically part of the Hantei coronation ceremony. Complete with obvious magic.

Personally, from a narrative perspective, I have always enjoyed playing in the sandbox of how Bushido and the righteousness of the Celestial Order breaks down in the mortal realm of L5R.

Rokugan is ruled by a divine-right monarchy with an imposed caste system, reinforced by a religion which can manifest literal magic powers in its chosen followers. Ignoring the "realpolitik" of Sotorii proving himself to be an unfit ruler, and how the systems in place can be used to remove him from reaching the power (such as the Proclamation, which would do an excellent job of this), there is an element to blindly believing in the Celestial Order which strongly favors those who are born into power. After all, if they were not meant to be born into their position of privilege and power, surely the Celestial Heavens would not have allowed them to be born into this position (unless the Celestial Heavens are capable of errors, and it's not like the RPG supplement of the Emerald Empire has an entire section talking about how the underworld and afterlife is a bureaucratic mess with rampant corruption and all that, right?). It is easy for someone born to power and privilege to believe that they deserve it, especially when their religion, set down by provable Gods, explicitly says that they are. And what must an honorable samurai do when faced with the unworthy liege who believes in their own righteousness?

On the subject of Sotorii, if you are PLANNING on being a despot who kills their enemies and rivals, being the worst version of yourself on the lead up to it will give you a pretty good guide to who you CAN abuse, and who you must destroy. But I think this is far more calculating than he is currently being depicted, especially in the scene with him playing with Kunshuu. 

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11 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

The thing in this story is that it presents both heirs as unfit to rule. Sotorii for obvious reasons, Daisetsu for his lack of respect and understanding of traditions and Bushido. 

Yeah, his behavior called for a compensation. Nobody can expect to insult the crown prince and go away with that. Maybe a duel was a bit too far, but even then, Daisetsu failed to respect that way of solving things. The same he thinks torture is outrageous and unjust (really, that’s a thought that a monarch shouldn’t have. Some things just must be done for the greater good), he doesn’t respect Bushido enough to give a duel the consideration and importance it requires. Dairu is aware, and that’s why he answer to the duel, because he sees the insult to honor in the behavior of both princes. 

I don’t remember who said it, but somebody accused Daisetsu of “weak” in one fiction, and other said that Sotorii was “cruel”. That’s where the conflict will grow, not on how likable are each one.

No, being against torture is a good thing, and Daisetsu correctly identifies both problems with--it is neither ethical nor effective.  Real-world studies have been done, and Daisetsu's position is backed up by them.  People being tortured will tell the torturer what they think they want to hear, not the truth.

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18 minutes ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

No, being against torture is a good thing, and Daisetsu correctly identifies both problems with--it is neither ethical nor effective.  Real-world studies have been done, and Daisetsu's position is backed up by them.  People being tortured will tell the torturer what they think they want to hear, not the truth.

QFT

Torture is never a good tactic for getting information.  The story even references that torture was not something that the ancestors were inclined to do, which seems to add to the PLS claim that Rokugan has entered an age of moral decline, as we have a story showing an imperial heir unaware that traditional thoughts on torture seem to be different than what is currently practiced.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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20 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

While we have had divine right monarchs in the real world, it is very infrequent that the Sun itself comes down out of Heaven to go "Yeah, this is my grand kid." Which is basically part of the Hantei coronation ceremony. Complete with obvious magic.

Yes -- but that's what I mean about leaning on "but magic." Totally true that yes, there is more overt manifestation of divine interference in Rokugan than there was in the real world (though . . . bear in mind that real-world people saw, and still see, overt manifestations of divine interference all the time, and the fact that you and I might say they're wrong doesn't change how they perceive those things). On the other hand, people are also AMAZINGLY good at coming up with justifications for doing what they need to do within the confines of their belief system. Sotorii is of divine blood? Yes, indeed he is, which means he's obviously much too precious to risk by putting him into contact with many people. Far better for him to be safely protected by the Seppun in a nice isolated palace, and not burdened with all the unpleasant worldly tasks of running the Empire. I mean, it isn't like he shows a lot of interest in XYZ anyway, so clearly you're just obeying his will by not bothering him with that stuff. Etc. Step by step, a disliked Emperor finds himself respected and revered and utterly irrelevant.

Plus, it is literally built into the setting that not everybody fully buys into Bushido and its associated tenets. Sotorii might be able to control everybody who says "welp, he's the Son of Heaven" after he ascends to the throne -- but in the meanwhile he's alienated all the people who are prone to choosing pragmatism, the greater good, or their own interests over lockstep loyalty to the line of Hantei, while building absolutely no power base that obeys him for any reason other than teeth-gritting duty. Usually the people who aspire to be jerkwad tyrants take steps to get somebody on their side, by promising and delivering lots of benefits for their cronies . . . but Sotorii isn't even doing that.

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29 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

 And what must an honorable samurai do when faced with the unworthy liege who believes in their own righteousness?

In Rokugan they do their duty.............right up to the point that they are confronted by their old friend/rival who, with a  small band of samurai, engage in a plot to kill the dutiful samurai's liege.

The tragedy is that the liege of the dutiful samurai rewards him by kicking his severed head after he laid down his life to protect his liege.................

Dangit, got sucked into 13 Assassins again.  :D 

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4 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Usually the people who aspire to be jerkwad tyrants take steps to get somebody on their side, by promising and delivering lots of benefits for their cronies . . . but Sotorii isn't even doing that.

Or maybe he already has someone on his side?

/cough Fu-Leng

:ph34r:

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