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Darth Meanie

Casual X-Wing is Dead/Casual Player Bemoans Changes

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13 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The changes affect tournament play quite a bit for meta lists, but not too much for casual.   Many ships got cheaper,  but a few elite pilots got more expensive.   Upgrades that can be exploited with combos went up.  Upgrades that aren't used much, but are used by casuals went mildly down. 

One exception is Proton Torpedoes went up a decent amount, because they are worth it.

Overall, no change greatly affected the game for a casual player.

Proton Torpedos: Because You're Worth  It (TM)

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19 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have been keeping an eye on the goings-on with the app, because I am massively disappointed in its execution and it is a big reason I am a 2.0 hold-out.  Someday, if Epic ever comes around again (different topic, but I am dubious}, I sorta want to have an opinion of where this game is headed.  And yes, I could use a 3rd party app but at this point I am holding FFG accountable to the fact that an app, their app, is now integral to how the game functions.

The 3rd bit is tricky.  I could care less about tournament play, and thus the meta doesn't affect me at my kitchen table. 

I do not understand this.  You ARENT using the much easier to use YASB 2.0, because the official app/website is "integral" to how the game plays, but you don't care about tournament play, which is really the only time that the app is absolutely required!

To sum up:

  • You play Epic only
  • You don't play 2nd edition
  • You only use the official app because its "official" (even though you don't play 2.0)
  • You don't play tournaments
  • You don't care about the meta
  • You say points-rebalancing every 6 months will confuse casual people like you

You know, I have to say, I think you're a unique case.

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15 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yes, I basically only play Epic, and it is a huge tragedy that it is no longer supported.

I have been keeping an eye on the goings-on with the app, because I am massively disappointed in its execution and it is a big reason I am a 2.0 hold-out.  Someday, if Epic ever comes around again (different topic, but I am dubious}, I sorta want to have an opinion of where this game is headed.  And yes, I could use a 3rd party app but at this point I am holding FFG accountable to the fact that an app, their app, is now integral to how the game functions.

The 3rd bit is tricky.  I could care less about tournament play, and thus the meta doesn't affect me at my kitchen table.  In 1.0, we actively culled the broken garbage.  OTOH, I am not so naive as to think that the choices made in game design, which are all tournament focused, have no impact on the game I am handed.  Thus, I care about where the design of this game is headed.

So, I don't know, what audience is that?  "Concerned X-Wing Player?"

1.  This is probably what would happen.

2.  See above.  I am talking about the "ethos" of the game's design.

so

3.  I don't see it strictly as my problem.  While you, and many others, are just fine with it as a sacrifice to perfect balance, other less committed players may find the ever-moving-target of list micro management as an off-putting part of the game.  To wit, I am "professionally-casual" and I am wondering if I care enough to keep up.

And if people don't care enough to keep up, they might not care enough to stay.  Or they might decide not to get into this game.  And that's as bad for my hobby as it is for yours.

******

As another random thought, coming from the idea that this game has slipped in popularity, I might ask:  did this happen because:

A.  The death throes of 1.0 hurt it badly

B.  It just lost it's momentum naturally as an older game,

or

C.  It spends too much time trying to be the perfect game at the cost of attracting Star Wars fans who just want to noodle around.

Granted, loaded question because I'm implicating "C."  But without Epic, Missions in the expacs, and with micro-management of the game components, this game doesn't often hit my Star Wars button anymore.  Which, I dare say, is the main reason casuals play.

It might not be just your problem, but it isn't a casual vs competitive problem either. No matter what decision is made, some players will decide it isn't worth their time. What I'm suggesting is that you stop shouting into the ether and take responsibility for the problems you are experiencing. That's how you fix something. Not by using overblown, click bait titles. You have a problem. There are solutions. Will some players be frightened away by changing points? Yes. Will others like it and feel like they are getting a better deal because of it? Also yes. And for every person who might be chased away, they have the exact same options (and more) that I brought up to you, if they want to put in the effort. That's what other players, casual and competitive alike, are doing right now and having fun with it. Is this actually fun for you?

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Just now, XPav said:
  • You don't play tournaments
  • You don't care about the meta
  • You say points-rebalancing every 6 months will confuse casual people like you

OK, stop making this about me only, and consider how this might affect an outsider looking in.

Does this micro-management of game components make the game less inviting to play for people who just want Star Wars?

Is this a barrier to play?

Don't claim that a great tournament game makes for a great kitchen table game, because after a certain point that is not true.  Kitchen table people don't need/want all the fuss.

Quote

You know, I have to say, I think you're a unique case.

Aw thanx.  I think you're special, too. :wub:

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4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Don't claim that a great tournament game makes for a great kitchen table game, because after a certain point that is not true.  Kitchen table people don't need/want all the fuss.

You're inventing the fuss though!   I have never been to a tournament!   Points rebalance happens!  I fire up the app.  My list might go up, it might go down.  I look at my friends and go "whatever" and play with the list still!  Or I change the list!  You poke poke at the app until some neat new things happen!  There's no fuss!  At all!   You don't have to add!  All the cards are still there!

 

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6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

What I'm suggesting is that you stop shouting into the ether and take responsibility for the problems you are experiencing. That's how you fix something. 

I never asked anyone to fix my problem.   Heck, I didn't even bellow at FFG.   The point changes struck a chord with me, and I opened a dialog with my fellow X-Wingers.  Overall, I think it turned into a pretty good thread.  Or, at least it didn't get locked.  :lol:

Quote

Not by using overblown, click bait titles.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, of course the title has a bit of theatrical histrionics in it because, c'mon, let's be honest: no one would open a thread entitled "Darth Meanie is Unhappy (Again}."

K?

Quote

 

You have a problem.

There are solutions.

 Is this actually fun for you?

 

Yes.  True.  And I don't know.

I think a number of people have made good points, and a few like myself are vaguely uncomfortable.

Given that it's -40 F outside, it was a pretty good way to waste a day.

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9 minutes ago, XPav said:

You're inventing the fuss though!   I have never been to a tournament!   Points rebalance happens!  I fire up the app.  My list might go up, it might go down.  I look at my friends and go "whatever" and play with the list still!  Or I change the list!  You poke poke at the app until some neat new things happen!  There's no fuss!  At all!   You don't have to add!  All the cards are still there!

 

Points! Rebalance! Happens! Now!!

It! Wasn't! Originally! A! Part! Of! The! Game!

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So what?   Either you poke poke beep boop on the app and you change your list or you just fly old lists or you just pull out a quick build card!  Why are you turning this point rebalance into a terrifying arithmetic test that must be performed before casual players sit down at the table?

 

Edited by XPav

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I never asked anyone to fix my problem.   Heck, I didn't even bellow at FFG.   The point changes struck a chord with me, and I opened a dialog with my fellow X-Wingers.  Overall, I think it turned into a pretty good thread.  Or, at least it didn't get locked.  :lol:

That's fair. But considering how much groaning you've done about 2.0, you must forgive if people would rather try to fix your problem than to hear more about it.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

K?

If you had led with that, yeah. But you didn't. Still overblown, and click bait. You could cut off the first half and have an interesting title that doesn't sell fake doom and gloom. I'd even be impressed if you did it now.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yes.  True.  And I don't know.

Then what is the harm in trying what I've suggested? Or other people have suggested? 

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I never asked anyone to fix my problem.   Heck, I didn't even bellow at FFG.   The point changes struck a chord with me, and I opened a dialog with my fellow X-Wingers.  Overall, I think it turned into a pretty good thread.  Or, at least it didn't get locked.  :lol:

K?

Yes.  True.  And I don't know.

I think a number of people have made good points, and a few like myself are vaguely uncomfortable.

Given that it's -40 F outside, it was a pretty good way to waste a day.

That's fair if people feel vaguely uncomfortable. But it isn't a sign that casual play is coming to an end. Just that things have changed. Change always does that to people. Are you going to stew in that discomfort? Or make decisions on how to deal with it?

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I know i'm just feeding the troll, but i'll take the bait : 
Not one game is ever perfect, but striving to make it better is good for both casual and competitive player!
Let's say that you only ever play casually with your friends. You bring whatever and have fun. But one person, who really loves playing Tie-Phantom, stumble upon a super efficient combo of whisper + vader and is now unstopable in your friend groups. No one is able to beat them, the game seems unfair as heck! The unfairness can even be compounded by that fact that no one else really play super efficient list to begin with.

Rebalancing the game would also be good for those kitchen table group! And it's once per 6 months, it's not too hard to follow honestly.

Extreme example, let's say that the crew at FFG get drunk tomorrow and make a new ship. Let's call it the Aluminium Falcon. It cost 20 points for a generic, it's 6 hull and 6 shield, and it has 6 attack dice! Even better, it has a 360 degree turret! Last night it really seemed balanced, honest, but the week after, everyone online points out that this is broken as f***. The meta is now Aliminium Falcon or bust! Should the game continue as is because rebalancing are for tourney tryhard only and this casual game don't need it? Let's just all agree to be friendly and not play the aluminium falcon? 

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Loathe as I am to concede that Lace Jetstreamer had anything even close to a point with his videogame patch notes comparison, the point rebalances will probably not seem onerous or unusual to anyone that's ever fired up an online multiplayer game of any sort. Which is a heck of a lot of people.

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Points! Rebalance! Happens! Now!!

It! Wasn't! Originally! A! Part! Of! The! Game!

The only ships that were “originally part of the game” were X wings and TIE fighters. I assume you only play with those ships then? As you don’t want anything that was not originally part of the game to impact it....

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4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

OK, stop making this about me only, and consider how this might affect an outsider looking in.

Does this micro-management of game components make the game less inviting to play for people who just want Star Wars?

Is this a barrier to play?

IME with new players in 2nd edition it's not a barrier at all. New players, particularly younger ones, seem to have no problem using an app (either official or 3rd party) to build their lists. If anything the switch to an app-based list building system has made it easier and more attractive for a lot of the more casual players I've encountered because the app tracks everything for them. Sure, it's annoying when a list is invalidated because of points changes but I really don't see how that's any different to what we had in 1st edition. Theoretically you could have players turning up with illegal lists because, for example, Deadeye was now small ship only, or not realising their Phantoms now worked completely differently because of an errata to the Decloaking rules. What I'm struggling to understand from your complaints is how this is any different between the 2 editions? Most people would probably say of the 2 editions 2nd edition handles this better because the app helps keep track of things and will warn you of invalid lists and by focussing on points rebalancing much more than changing existing mechanics you make keeping track of the changes even easier.

Like many other people in this thread I guess I'm just confused as to what the problem actually is. Every time a potential solution is provided your response seems to be "but I don't want to do that". That's fine but at a certain point you have to acknowledge, as @XPav says, you might be a unique case. All these issues you bring up are either extremely esoteric or simply not a problem for pretty much anyone else I've met.

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I'd like to address the lack of Epic part of the OP.

The thing is that Epic ships will need to be redesigned from the ground up. Most of the things that made them unique have been reused on large or even small ships in 2.0.

 

  • Now all ships use an energy system that is even more advanced than the one huge ships had. I am referring to charges and Force tokens, of course.
  • Also, Coordinate, Reinforce, and Jam are available elsewhere.
  • We have ships with multiple side arcs (bowtie turrets and others) that can shoot thru both of them if they have the specific gunner upgrade equipped.
  • With the ordnance tubes upgrade, they used to be able to fire missiles and torpedoes nonstop. But now the reload action and multiple charge ordnance are common things in standard ships.

All these things used to be what made huge ships different from standard ships. The only thing going on for them that is unique would be the Recover action and the huge base.
To be honest, I would see little to no point on bringing a rebel transport to the table when a U-wing or a HWK could give the same amount of support and more firepower. The imperial TIE transport has the deploy mechanic that never really set the world on fire, and the corvettes had the thing about equipping lots of weapons, but they were always starved of action economy to make their shots count unless you brought lots of support with them (like Jonus or Weapons Engineer).

Converting the 5 huge ships to 2.0, if done right, would require a good amount of time and playtesting. They should be something entirely different to what they used to be to be worth their price, don't you think?
A flight of lambda-shuttles, with their coordinate, reinforce, jam, double crew upgrades, double arcs, system, cannon (for extra jamming or tractoring), etc would bring more to the table than a single Raider with similar costs! (A naked Raider would be 200 points in 2.0. Imagine what amount of firepower and support you could bring for that much if you bring lambdas instead).

So I am not at all pissed off with the fact that the devs are taking their time redesigning Epic play.

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5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Points! Rebalance! Happens! Now!!

It! Wasn't! Originally! A! Part! Of! The! Game!

But! It! Should! Have! Been!

It's a much more elegant system than issuing 0-cost upgrades that become auto-includes or errata that force you to remember what cards now no longer actually mean what they say.

And twice-a-year updates is hardly micromanaging.

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Overall, I think @Darth Meanie wants to be able to list build in his head, or at least mostly. And somehow the point changes are more of a hunch for him than erratas or even new cards coming in the mix. None of us get it, because list building in our heads is obviously something that only works in a very rough way, and you always have to check validity and cost anyways. Meanie doesn't seem to be technophobic, so I don't see how apps are a problem for him.

However, "new stuff", in any form, is a problem for casuals playing with less casuals. My group of casual friends kind of got stuck in 1.0 wave...3(?), and when I joined them (by wave 9 or something), I bought some Scum stuff and made their Fat Han lists fail, because the game had moved on. By the end of 1.0, they just stopped enjoying the game, because they stopped investing in new ships, and there was way too many cards to keep track of, way too many different kind of upgrades (with symbols that look alike), way too many erratas, and they were making list building mistakes all around.

With 2.0, they are able again to play with the ships they like, but the keeping up with what exists was still a hurdle...until they opened the app and spent 10min building : you don't need to know what exists if there's a drop down list...

3 hours ago, Max Teranous said:

The only ships that were “originally part of the game” were X wings and TIE fighters. I assume you only play with those ships then? As you don’t want anything that was not originally part of the game to impact it....

This. X-wing is a game in constant change (more ships, more upgrades, and since 2.0, AT THE CORE OF THE GAME, point changes). If you don't invest a tiny bit of time keeping up, you won't be up to date, that's it, and you're gonna have to live with it.

Edited by NilsTillander

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10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I am holding FFG accountable to the fact that an app, their app, is now integral to how the game functions.

Ah.  Here's the disconnect.  Fun little secret- the app doesn't really matter at this point.  Some of us had hope for tournament support, but without it I can't think of a single reason to use the official app.  It's about as critical to the game as the packaging at this point.  Third party apps do it all and better.

In any case, it's not a meaningful impediment to converting to 2.0.

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I think Darth Meanie just wants to be able to show up to gameday and not worry that all the lists in his bag are now illegal and the time he set aside to play now has to be taken up with time to prepare to play. Or is that my worry? 

The way I get ready to go to gameday, since I do not take all my stuff, just lists I prepared prior, missing a new points drop can have catastrophic effects for my evening. If I had other things to do this week I could easily show up to a gameday this weekend not ready to play. Now it isn't that big a deal. It's casual. But it isn't nothing

This bears some similarity and attitude to things I find tiresome in other aspects of my life. Many things I deal with tend to behave as if their decisions and parameters are the only ones that matter. As if their thing is the only thing I spend time with or money on. Many things acting as though they know what's best for me. Many nebulous authorities making changes that affect me that I don't get a voice in and my recourse is "take it or leave it." "My way or the highway" is what I get at work. Now I get it in X-wing. 

Now I'm ready for this particular "my way" and think it will probably be just a wafer-thin mint. Only a tiny little thin one. Only wafer thin. 

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I tend to use the point list PDFs and then create a list in YASB2 so I can print it out.

It and the official app are great for dealing with new point costs. My son's list had to be rejigged as slots were gone and points went up.

 He plays casual and is really new to the game. The apps helped make it easy for him to redo his list and still be interested in the game.

I like the point readjustment as I could never fully keep up with the errata/FAQ of 1.0. It was quite frustrating for me.

I'm still kicking the tires of 2.0 but do like the fact I can fly a lot more different ships/combinations.  I can include ships I couldn't fly before, due to cost mostly, into my lists.

Finally, I am a big fan of the faction separation. I fly R/E/S and don't bother with R/FO. This means my Ties and T-65s are still viable even against the "newer" T-70s and FO Ties.

 

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10 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

Not one game is ever perfect, but striving to make it better is good for both casual and competitive player!

"I don't know what you are complaining about.  We are modernizing your infrastructure and making your country better."

Said every colonial power always.

I hate this argument because it is a half-truth that ignores the fact that casual players don't need (or even want} a perfect game.  In the death throes of 1.0 my brother and I had just as much fun as ever because neither one of us felt the need to screw the other with triple-jumps.  A just like your competitive imbalances didn't make me unhappy, your perfect tournament game does not necessarily make me happier.

It's just a tongue wag that you can use to justify spending all the time doing what matters for a certain part of the crowd while ignoring what others want, while at the same time pretending to care.

A good example of this is the Shuttle Tydirium.  100% Star Wars lore, lots of folks would have fun with it; tournament crowd complains about shared ships and faction flavor.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I hate this argument because it is a half-truth that ignores the fact that casual players don't need (or even want} a perfect game.  

Except that we have casual players say they like the points change. Again, this isn’t a universal casual player problem.

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14 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

A good example of this is the Shuttle Tydirium.  100% Star Wars lore, lots of folks would have fun with it; tournament crowd complains about shared ships and faction flavor.

Actually, that's not in the game for a completely different reason.  After the Tydirium was stolen and used as part of the operation to assassinate the Emperor, the Imperials placed remotely activated bombs in all Lambda-class shuttles and blow them up any time the Rebels try to field them.

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