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empty handed to cast invocations

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do you need to be empty handed to cast invocations ?
or you can wield a polearm, or 2 weapons, or a single weapon and cast whatever you want (invocations) ?

didn't find the rules about that (maybe I missed it)

is it the same for shuji, or kiho ?

thx!

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Haven’t seen anything either, so I guess there’s no such restriction... for Shuji, I gather that the targets should be able to hear and understand you. 

One restriction that would likely apply to Shuji, Invocations and Maho is the ability to speak (seeing as effects such as Silencing Strike or the Kiho The Great Silence impact those)

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Another ambiguous area, that GMs need to finalize at the onset of character creation.

In previous editions, spells were cast vocally from scrolls requiring hands to be free, unless xp was spent on memorization. That is not the case anymore. The only suggestion of hands being needed is when making an offering to appease the kami (or maybe in casting rituals) which grants an advantage when making a spellcasting check (the specifics of which I can't remember ATM). This doesn't necessarily mean hands are needed, and an offering could be a promise of goods and services at a later point, all TBD by the shugenja and spirit during their negotiation.

There is a scorpion school that can cast with subtlety, which reinforces what Franwax said about all other schools.

I'd also say the Unicorn Iuchi need to manipulate their spell storing devices, which requires hands, so maybe there are other exceptions.

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that's what I thought.

nice buff for shugenja.

though I'm probably going to say that if you want to use the "offerings" (for the rerolls) then you would need at least one free hand, to, use the offerings.

 

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5 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

though I'm probably going to say that if you want to use the "offerings" (for the rerolls) then you would need at least one free hand, to, use the offerings.

That I would definitely agree on. I think most of the others are fine (although, to be fair, if you've got a readied wakizashi - for example - shifting to a one-handed grip is a start-of-turn freebie)

Certainly artwork (Meishodo Wielder) and fiction (Outsiders) we've seen of Meishodo depicts the shujenga physically holding their talisman:

L5C01_113.jpg

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The Iuchi school rule specifically mention that the artifact needs to be "in your possession". Meaning a necklace would probably be fine, I don't want to piss off them meishodo wielders, so to be fair to all shugenjas, just asking for a free hand for offerings is ok.

Though at this point somebody with a polearm could just decide to "hold" the polearm with one hand.

Basically, unless you are double wielding, you are fine. I guess. Not very what the lore/fiction tends to show about shugenja, but that is definitely rules as interpreted.

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:42 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

 (although, to be fair, if you've got a readied wakizashi - for example - shifting to a one-handed grip is a start-of-turn freebie) 

I wouldn't even go that far, sure, a pole arm requires two hands to use it effectively, but you can still hold it in one hand while you open a door, etc, 

The only time it's going to be an issue is if you have two weapons equipped (and even then, carrying two things in one hand for a few seconds isn't always a big deal), 

Of course, since the rules make a big deal about grip, etc, I guess you could argue that in both cases the weapon is "unreadied" because it isn't available for immediate use, YMMV

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i think this is about right. If you are holding a two handed weapon in one hand (or two things in one hand) then I don't think those weapons are readied. Otherwise not a huge deal.

The original questions also included Kiho. IMO Kiho generally does not require speaking or a free hand (though obviously if you are punching/kicking somebody that takes a free limb to strike with. Almost all of them involve meditation checks and imply that its concentration alone that brings effects into existence. In that sense I think Kihos are a little cooler than an invocation.

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:22 AM, Void Crane said:

The original questions also included Kiho. IMO Kiho generally does not require speaking or a free hand

We found in our last game that the rules explicitly state (in the page 183 sidebar) that passive effects of kiho will typically not be noticed by onlookers, so I'd have to concur here - if the effects of the kiho are not obvious for some reason then you aren't going to notice it, which means it can't involve anything more than mundane use of the skill involved (from the perspective of an onlooker at least),

So, sure, if the skill being used requires free hands, then I guess you will need free hands, but most often not (if it's a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check then perhaps being unarmed should be a requirement? But that shouldn't be a big deal because most of the kiho that require a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check will likely only benefit unarmed combat anyway).

Similarly for speaking - I guess some might feature some martial-arts style shouts and the like, but no obvious incantation as such,

Edited by gareth_lazelle

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3 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

if it's a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check then perhaps being unarmed should be a requirement?

Not even then... kick attacks are also legit for kihos ;)

But I noted that Bite is usually excluded for some reason 😛

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5 hours ago, Franwax said:

Not even then... kick attacks are also legit for kihos ;)

But I noted that Bite is usually excluded for some reason 😛

Yeah - but you can't do good unarmed martial arts postures with just your legs... You have to flail your arms around and yell "kiiiiiiiiiyaaaaah!" or some such!

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20 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

passive effects of kiho will typically not be noticed by onlookers, so I'd have to concur here - if the effects of the kiho are not obvious for some reason then you aren't going to notice it, which means it can't involve anything more than mundane use of the skill involved (from the perspective of an onlooker at least), 

I think you're conflating the effects of a kiho with the practices needed to put them into existence. Sure, in some instances maybe all a monk needs to do is meditate, but when I see someone practicing Tai Chi, I'm looking at them, not their energy, and sadly never a burst effect.

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7 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

I think you're conflating the effects of a kiho with the practices needed to put them into existence. Sure, in some instances maybe all a monk needs to do is meditate, but when I see someone practicing Tai Chi, I'm looking at them, not their energy, and sadly never a burst effect.

That was more or less what I said, isn't it?

If the effects of the kiho are obvious for some reason, then yes, you are going to notice it,

The game is set in a world where kiho exist, so if I'm slapped on my *** by an invisible force whilst that monk is performing tai-chi nearby then I'm **** well going to draw some conclusions!

The tai-chi isn't in and of itself suspicious, but the effects of the kiho may well draw my attention to it.

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28 minutes ago, gareth_lazelle said:

That was more or less what I said, isn't it?

Simply, it's about cause and effect. RAW, you are correct that effects of kiho are not readily observable. The main question is whether any components (gestures in this case) are needed for shuji, kiho, invocations, etc. which my point was, is inherently observable unless your school specifically states that you are sneaky about it.

RAW, required components are vague and it's hard to enforce something with players on an ad hoc basis. My suggestion is to either use common sense and keep it vague, or better off to set in stone at the beginning of the campaign that there's some narrative requirement (a scroll, time, a sacrifice, gestures, words of power, distinctive combat stance) for each technique that players (and NPCs) must describe at least vaguely at the time of activation.

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At this point I'm going all in.

Kiho are not noticeable, burst effects are though.

Invocations are noticeable.

Both don't require empty hands unless you want to use an offering.

I mean, why not.. there are bigger issues than that mechanically wise.

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54 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Invocations are noticeable. 

Once again, cause and effect.

Page 80 of the Core Book. The Kami's Whisper: "while performing an invocation technique or channeling, characters with vigilance lower than or equal to your school rank plus one cannot detect any physical sign that you are in the act of invoking the spirits. They can still observe the effects of the invocation, however."

This implies that the act of activation (at least an invocation) is noticeable unless you have a school ability that conceals your activity. For all other shugenja, maybe someone familiar with your technique or tradition can make some form of lore check to know what you are attempting before it happens?

Which brings us to page 182-183, which states that enhancement kiho (once activated) are only noticed by characters attuned to or trained in mastery of ki. Notice that the act of activation beyond simply using an action is missing (is it subtle? requires movement on a case by case basis, up for interpretation?), but we can all agree the enhancement effects are unnoticeable unless you also manipulate ki.

On page 215. "Shuji can generally affect characters close enough to hear the speaker" or written text, which is obviously vocal or tangible, and begs the question of whether targets know they are being influenced by shuji?

On 224, maho are subtle curses, sometimes requiring blood sacrifice (material offering).

To the original question, it doesn't explicitly state that hands are required. It would make sense that opportunity spends could remove such requirements, but there's a missed chance at clarity.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, T_Kageyasu said:

Once again, cause and effect.

Page 80 of the Core Book. The Kami's Whisper: "while performing an invocation technique or channeling, characters with vigilance lower than or equal to your school rank plus one cannot detect any physical sign that you are in the act of invoking the spirits. They can still observe the effects of the invocation, however."

This implies that the act of activation (at least an invocation) is noticeable unless you have a school ability that conceals your activity. For all other shugenja, maybe someone familiar with your technique or tradition can make some form of lore check to know what you are attempting before it happens?

Which brings us to page 182-183, which states that enhancement kiho (once activated) are only noticed by characters attuned to or trained in mastery of ki. Notice that the act of activation beyond simply using an action is missing (is it subtle? requires movement on a case by case basis, up for interpretation?), but we can all agree the enhancement effects are unnoticeable unless you also manipulate ki.

On page 215. "Shuji can generally affect characters close enough to hear the speaker" or written text, which is obviously vocal or tangible, and begs the question of whether targets know they are being influenced by shuji?

On 224, maho are subtle curses, sometimes requiring blood sacrifice (material offering).

To the original question, it doesn't explicitly state that hands are required. It would make sense that opportunity spends could remove such requirements, but there's a missed chance at clarity.

 

 

the clarity is not in the right places. hence why the game is not a great game, but a good game.
 

 

regarding p.80, yeah, that's soshi school ability. so invocations are always easily perceptible unless you are a soshi or otherwise noted that it is inperceptible.

activating a kiho is only noticeable by other Ki attuned people. burst effect noticeable by everybody. again, unless otherwise noted in the power.

shuji are never noticeable, at least in my game. they just represent the way you talk, it aint "magic".

maho, the GM does whatever he wants! :D

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2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

shuji are never noticeable, at least in my game. they just represent the way you talk, it aint "magic".

Yeah, I figure shuji are a little like kata, 

They might highlight you as highly skilled when you use them, but there simply isn't anything more to see, 

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On 2/15/2019 at 5:46 PM, gareth_lazelle said:

Yeah, I figure shuji are a little like kata, 

They might highlight you as highly skilled when you use them, but there simply isn't anything more to see, 

Exactly so. "He's talking to people" or "She's trying to hit me with a naginata" are pretty obvious but that's not the same as knowing exactly what they're doing, especially if the shuji were Rustling of Leaves (i.e. "start an untraceable rumour") or the kata were a technique not known to you. 

Equally, (soshi aside) the Shujenga is clearly invoking the kami, but unless you know whatever obscure theological text they're quoting from, you're not going to know what they're asking them to do until your face catches fire. At which point you can probably assume the one was connected to the other. 

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