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JPierson

Rivals Casting Spells

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Any strain they suffer goes straight to wounds. Additionally they can voluntarily take strain damage (again it goes to wounds) unlike minions who cannot. This does raise the point that minions cannot be spellcasters since they cannot voluntarily suffer strain - that is unless you create a talent that breaks that rule.

But that’s ANOTHER discussion.

Edited by GM Hooly

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Per page 133 of the CRB:

Quote

Anything that normally inflicts strain inflicts an equivalent number of wounds on rivals instead. Rivals can use abilities or invoke effects that inflict strain on the user; this simply causes them to suffer wounds instead. Remember, because they do not suffer strain, they cannot recover from it, either.

So as GM Hooly said, casting a spell causes them to suffer 2 wounds.

Of course, you can give them abilities that mimic a specific spell to bypass the strain ==> wound problem. But again, as Hooly said, that's another discussion.

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I figured it would be that wound answer for Rivals, but it just seems a little crappy to me. That means that a typical rival could only get off a couple of spells at best because of suffered wounds otherwise. But, I suppose that's why their rivals and not nemesis. Thanks all

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Page 132: Minions also cannot voluntarily suffer strain.

1) Casting a Spell is voluntarily suffering strain.

2) Taking an extra Maneuver (as well as the action) is voluntarily suffering strain.

3) Using talents that ask you to spend Strain is voluntarily suffering strain.

Minions cannot do any of these things, so therefore unless you give them a talent to bypass that rule, Minions cannot cast spells.

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I think the Genesys magical system is meant to be house ruled. Each campaign world could have a different magical setting, source of power, method of casting spells, etc. The Genesys book gives a good base system that I think you should be tweaking to your own liking/campaign.

So, unless there is something in the nature of magic in your world that causes actual physical wounds to non-heroic spellcasters, house rule it away. 

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Rivals (or any adversaries, for that matter) do not have to follow the rules for player characters. A rival "spellcaster" should have a selection of pre-built spells that they can use during an encounter, and cast them without depleting their wound threshold. Related, they do not have to comply with player character rules for spell difficulty either, although those rules can be helpful. If you want an adversary spellcaster to have any particularly potent spells, you're better off designating them as Slow-Firing or "once per encounter".

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On 1/27/2019 at 9:14 AM, JPierson said:

I figured it would be that wound answer for Rivals, but it just seems a little crappy to me. That means that a typical rival could only get off a couple of spells at best because of suffered wounds otherwise. But, I suppose that's why their rivals and not nemesis. Thanks all

The best solution i’ve Found for stuff like this is to just make these kinds of rivals into almost a mini nemesis. You just add ten to their willpower and you have a strain value for spells and talents. 

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I've had great success running Rival spellcasters. I don't give them any sort ability that negates taking wounds, but I do usually give them a little extra. My players really enjoy it because they know the enemy is really digging deep and it makes them feel smart for manipulating the enemy. 

 

The biggest thing I do is usually either use a lot of them, or give them special abilities that make their rolls much easier. So it makes their magic a little more potent for the shorter lifespan. 

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One point worth making is that Rival spellcasters that use bone implements to cast attack and curse spells can heal 1 wound, so the spellcost is actually only 1 wound instead of 2 while using that implement.

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On 1/29/2019 at 12:10 AM, Sturn said:

So, unless there is something in the nature of magic in your world that causes actual physical wounds to non-heroic spellcasters (...)

You do realize that's not what the rules as written are meant to represent?

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10 hours ago, Morangias said:

You do realize that's not what the rules as written are meant to represent?

I'm not sure if you understand what I was saying?

Strain causes Wounds to Minions in the rules as written. Spellcasting in the rules as written causes Strain (the reason for this thread). Rules as written regarding Wounds: "Damage to a character's physical body is tracked using wounds".

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On 2/22/2019 at 9:45 PM, Sturn said:

I'm not sure if you understand what I was saying?

Strain causes Wounds to Minions in the rules as written. Spellcasting in the rules as written causes Strain (the reason for this thread). Rules as written regarding Wounds: "Damage to a character's physical body is tracked using wounds".

You can also model convincing people by depleting their Strain, which in case of Minions and Rivals also goes straight to wounds. Do you likewise interpret this as non-heroic individuals dying from hearing strong arguments? Or could it be that you shouldn't interpret any rules concerning the minion/rival/nemesis division as if they were the physics of the world?

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The only difference between a Rival and a Nemesis is a Nemesis has a strain threshold. If you want a Rival to cast spells, then just make them a Nemesis instead. Minion, Rival, and Nemesis do not carry any rules about their power level. You can easily have a Minion group be more powerful than a Nemesis.

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The post made by drainsmith is the most simple and obvious answer.

Although the other option which was also mentioned would be to give them higher wound threshold.

Third option would be to make the magic casted by rivals be based on consumable focuses but then that would need inventory tracking.

 

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On 2/28/2019 at 8:27 AM, drainsmith said:

The only difference between a Rival and a Nemesis is a Nemesis has a strain threshold. If you want a Rival to cast spells, then just make them a Nemesis instead. Minion, Rival, and Nemesis do not carry any rules about their power level. You can easily have a Minion group be more powerful than a Nemesis.

This is all very true, the distinction between enemy types is intended to be for ease of use, and their relative power levels are just guidelines for not overwhelming new characters.

That being said, I still like the idea of a Mana Pool ability that allows Minion Groups to cast a few spells. It would be a great way to represent hordes of cultists, and it really highlights how powerful a PC mage is in comparison if some NPC mages have to work in groups just to cast a spell.

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Like @Direach said you dont have to make your npc follow the same rules you can simply ignore the strain cost if you so desire. Which tbh is the most easiest way and will make your game run smoother. Less things to keep track of allow you to focus on the narrative. 

For minions i would advise to reskin abilities as spells or even weapon profiles.  

Here is an example of a caster minion i just made up. 

uc?id=1s6Tw1R-eR7S8-gH2JYxp4-Xm6KaRfmLx

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Archellus said:

For minions i would advise to reskin abilities as spells or even weapon profiles.

I really like that idea!

For Sacrificial Magic, I would have it require an action, and remove the 'at the start of turn' condition. As written it allows them to cast a spell as an incidental at the begining of their turn, and then follow up with an attack using Insane Chant. I would also have it note explicitly that removing a member allowed it to cast any divine spell "without suffering strain to do so" (or the like).

For the 'Chants, I would have them roll Divine instead of Ranged, since the goal is for them to mimic divine spells. That way you can remove Ranged, and reduce their Agility to 2.

Edited by Cantriped

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Good catch :) i cleared it abit up now :) good point about the divine skill in the profile. 

But we are getting off topic here :)  the point was that magic can be reskined to alot of things and a GM dont need to follow the same rules as PC

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On 2/25/2019 at 6:53 AM, Morangias said:

You can also model convincing people by depleting their Strain, which in case of Minions and Rivals also goes straight to wounds. Do you likewise interpret this as non-heroic individuals dying from hearing strong arguments? Or could it be that you shouldn't interpret any rules concerning the minion/rival/nemesis division as if they were the physics of the world?

Non-heroic individuals do not have to die from hearing strong arguments.  When the wound threshold is depleted, the enemy is "defeated" not killed.  This could represent death, unconsciousness, surrender, fleeing from the fight, or any number of other ways to remove them from the encounter.

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14 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

Non-heroic individuals do not have to die from hearing strong arguments.

That's not what passes for political discourse in the modern USA would suggest... 😈

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33 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

That's not what passes for political discourse in the modern USA would suggest... 😈

Thats not dying from a strong argument, thats committing suicide because you want to make a statement.  Then when it fails, blame the other side.

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On 3/12/2019 at 11:06 PM, Edgookin said:

Non-heroic individuals do not have to die from hearing strong arguments.  When the wound threshold is depleted, the enemy is "defeated" not killed.  This could represent death, unconsciousness, surrender, fleeing from the fight, or any number of other ways to remove them from the encounter.

But that's my point! The rule that Minions and Rivals don't track Strain is an abstraction meant to lessen the GM's mental overhead, not a statement on the worlds portrayed in Genesys having different physics for people depending on their narrative importance. And just as a Rival won't explode when hearing your scathing tirade, they likewise won't bleed to death from casting spells.

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