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matt.sucharski

Illegal Squad at Phoenix / Trip Upsilon (no relation)

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm sorry, but you are irritating me.

Then perhaps, as I suggested, you and I have nothing to discuss here. I have tried to keep the matter open and to submit questions to promote thinking of solutions to the problem, but at every turn you seem determined to be snippy. I've never directly said that you were wrong in your position, I've only ever asked for backing and explanation - which you eventually gave but grudgingly, and in the case of the '1-hard and 5-straight' example, only in response to one specific shuttle deployment and set of opening moves which could be very different depending on obstacle placement and non-shuttle player deployment. I don't expect you to go through every possibility as that would be ludicrous, but to at least acknowledge them rather than claiming your one example as cast-iron proof of the impossibility of avoiding both shuttles every game, every time, is not asking too much, and certainly your abrasive attitude isn't needed at all.
Either way, I'm done trying. If I am so irritating to you then both our time is better spent discussing the matter with others rather than each other.


To the matter at hand, I still feel like generics may well be the key here, and that is what I would experiment with against the shuttles should I face them - engaging them at moderate range early, and being numerous/resilient (or both) enough to weather the initial storm relatively intact. After that I imagine it's a matter of breaking past them, which I expect is a lot easier after that first engagement, and with multiple ships to attempt it. Once you are behind them, a single green die and reinforce can only prevent so much damage, and there is every possibility that you force them to lose actions by bumping each other, using the many red moves on their dial, or overlapping obstacles once their Collision Detector charges have run out.

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1 minute ago, MalusCalibur said:

and in the case of the '1-hard and 5-straight' example, only in response to one specific shuttle deployment and set of opening moves which could be very different depending on obstacle placement and non-shuttle player deployment. I don't expect you to go through every possibility as that would be ludicrous, but to at least acknowledge them rather than claiming your one example as cast-iron proof of the impossibility of avoiding both shuttles every game, every time, is not asking too much, and certainly your abrasive attitude isn't needed at all.

See, you keep missing the point.

  1. Obstacles don't matter! They have collision detector, they will get to their target.
  2. The setup of the non-shuttle player doesn't matter because the Upsilons setup after their target.
  3. The "once specific shuttle deployment" is THE shuttle deployment. Doing something else is most likely wrong.
  4. The set of opening moves besides the most extreme cases I mentioned are always worse.

I must be doing a horrible job here. The reason I focus on 5straight+boost or 1hard + roll is that they are the most extreme cases. Everything else - I repeat, everything else - is easier to catch. Period.

So if even the most extreme cases are caught then we do not have to consider the less extreme, worse maneuver choices in any way what-so-ever. The Tripsilons will get them.

 

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12 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Just don't try to build up an immunity to laser blasts. I don't think it's a valid strategy.

The Upsilon is flown by the First Order, and the First Order is overtly fascist; so I can clearly not choose the maneuver to the right.

But it was manufactured by Sienar-Jaemus Fleet Systems  and "sjfs" is the Jawa word for "socialism"; so I can clearly not choose the maneuver to the left.

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

See, you keep missing the point.

  1. Obstacles don't matter! They have collision detector, they will get to their target.
  2. The setup of the non-shuttle player doesn't matter because the Upsilons setup after their target.
  3. The "once specific shuttle deployment" is THE shuttle deployment. Doing something else is most likely wrong.
  4. The set of opening moves besides the most extreme cases I mentioned are always worse.

I must be doing a horrible job here. The reason I focus on 5straight+boost or 1hard + roll is that they are the most extreme cases. Everything else - I repeat, everything else - is easier to catch. Period.

So if even the most extreme cases are caught then we do not have to consider the less extreme, worse maneuver choices in any way what-so-ever. The Tripsilons will get them.

 

1) They will certainly matter once the charges run out, which with the right placement could well happen in the first round. ****, with ideal placement, the optimum route for the shuttles to spring their trap could cross as many as three, which would cost them their action at best and their shot at worst.
2) Of course it still matters. They won't always be set up facing to the side, against the back line, at the exact same place relative to where the shuttles go. It's not possible to be that mathematically precise with the Upsilons every time on the table.
3) Then how does them setting up at In6 matter? Is the only variable at play here their horizontal position? And again, I very much doubt the shuttle player is going to get the exact, pinpoint deployment, particularly relative to the enemy ships, correct every single time.

And what if they come up against a list such as the examples I've given of generics? What if they're up against something that is unlikely to be killed by their initial two shots? Whatever the mods they have are, that's still a maximum of eight damage assuming perfect attack dice and perfectly failed defence rolls in both cases, which is not a guarantee against many targets. In short, what if the alpha strike fails to achieve a win condition immediately? Regardless of how slow it can be made, the trickle of damage against them will still happen (1 dice + reinforce is not enough to stop it, and they'll never get evade tokens again after the first rush) and after that first joust it is they who will struggle to keep arcs on target.

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Okay.... restricting to cases.

cF8cSof.png

I can't 'move' the ships in deployment since the Upsilons counter-deploy at higher initiative, so if I say "set up more to the left" the Upsilons will retroactively have set up there, and if I deploy at the front of my deployment zone, the Upsilons can choose to deploy further back (though that can be useful, since it creates uncovered space at the back of my deployment zone)

I can change orientation, though.

 

Whisper:

Whilst Phantoms are infamously hard to pin down, they're arguably not a great example for 'breaking away from the upsilons' since their actual dial is pretty awful and they can't deploy cloaked. Probably her biggest priority, therefore, is to get under bloody cloak.  As set up, a speed 1 straight and cloak would net only 1 incoming shot with 5 green dice and force - but sadly a phantom doesn't have a speed 1 straight.

My first response is "afterburners" - they've gotten cheaper, and give Whisper a chance to reposition without avoiding using her action to cloak - which is the key thing she doesn't want to do unless it avoids being shot entirely.

I'm eyeballing this with Powerpoint, so apologies if it's not quite true.

  • If you set her up at the front of your deployment zone at a 45' angle, then a speed 3 turn, and afterburner boost turning toward the shuttles with the upsilons as shown gets her clear, with her action free to vanish into cloak.
    • Countering that means deploying the upsilons further left, moving her (relatively) to the right. But then she can, if needed, forgo cloaking and roll right, so to ensure she cannot do this you have to overcompensate and shift so she's something like 2 1/2 base widths 'right' on the board from where she was.
    • At this point, a speed 3 bank the other way and an afterburner boost straight is very close to getting out of the leftmost upsilon's arc - if that is the case, then cloaking would leave you with 5 dice and force versus a single 4-dice shot; still bad, but eminently survivable, and - most importantly - cloaked.
  • If you set her up "straight on", then the upsilons need to position themselves such that neither a speed 3 turn and boost or a speed 3 bank and boost won't escape their arc with a roll thrown in afterwards.
    • I'm not entirely convinced  you can do that, and again, if you split the upsilons up, Whisper can afford to accept a single attack provided it's not range 1 if she cloaks and uses the force.
  • More importantly, if I deploy at the front of my deployment zone, you probably want to deploy the Upsilon further back to 'widen' your firing arc at the critical point. If you do that, then a speed 1 turn and barrel roll toward the board edge (if straight on) or speed 1 bank and barrel roll (if at 45') might well get me to a safe spot.

 

35 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Obstacles don't matter! They have collision detector, they will get to their target.

Obstacles do matter: Collision detector allows you to ignore the one obstacle you hit. However, whilst the Batwings are disturbingly close, they are NOT at the edge of the opponent's board edge "channel" - placing a large obstruction between where you intend to manoeuvre to and where you assume the Batwings will come at you from is quite feasible, and that's a bonus green die in your favour (better yet, an automatic evade come the new 'gas cloud' obstacle type).

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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4 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

2) Of course it still matters. They won't always be set up facing to the side, against the back line, at the exact same place relative to where the shuttles go. It's not possible to be that mathematically precise with the Upsilons every time on the table.

Missed point. It matters, yes. It doesn't matter, because the shuttle player reacts to whatever you've decided to do on placement when they then put down their ships. You face inward, the face to intercept. You face toward their side, they place to intercept. You put in the middle of the board, they place to intercept.

5 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

3) Then how does them setting up at In6 matter? Is the only variable at play here their horizontal position? And again, I very much doubt the shuttle player is going to get the exact, pinpoint deployment, particularly relative to the enemy ships, correct every single time.

See above. It matters, because they setup to intercept.

 

6 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

What if they're up against something that is unlikely to be killed by their initial two shots?

Those type of ships are unlikely to escape the arc for turn 2... Not impossible, but unlikely.

7 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

? Whatever the mods they have are, that's still a maximum of eight damage assuming perfect attack dice and perfectly failed defence rolls in both cases, which is not a guarantee against many targets

It is unlikely to land 8 hits on a target. It is likely to roll 8 hits though with focus/target lock. Against a 2 green dice defense, you're likely going to take 5 of that. Not many ships enjoy five damage.

9 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

In short, what if the alpha strike fails to achieve a win condition immediately?

Providing you can get out of arcs, it's actually a game. This is why we're looking at tactics.

9 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Regardless of how slow it can be made, the trickle of damage against them will still happen (1 dice + reinforce is not enough to stop it, and they'll never get evade tokens again after the first rush) and after that first joust it is they who will struggle to keep arcs on target.

You did see my damage deflection post, right? 4 ships, 5 attacks, 3 damage done to an Ups? It can take a while. Again, not impossible, just difficult.

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21 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Is the only variable at play here their horizontal position?

The only real variables are:

  1. How far you are forward in your deployment zone
  2. Whether you are facing at 45', straight on, or along your board edge
  3. Whether there is an obstacle at range 2 of your board edge you can shelter behind if the shuttles set up for "closest point of approach".
  4. Where the board edge is

(4) is almost always bad for you, since restricting your options to move makes it easier for the shuttles to corral and shoot the crud out of you. The obvious exception is Moralo Eval, who can take one look at the oncoming shuttles, say "nope!" and flee into reserves....

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1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The only real variables are:

  1. How far you are forward in your deployment zone
  2. Whether you are facing at 45', straight on, or along your board edge
  3. Whether there is an obstacle at range 2 of your board edge you can shelter behind if the shuttles set up for "closest point of approach".
  4. Where the board edge is

(4) is almost always bad for you, since restricting your options to move makes it easier for the shuttles to corral and shoot the crud out of you. The obvious exception is Moralo Eval, who can take one look at the oncoming shuttles, say "nope!" and flee into reserves....

Just make sure the other ships on his list can weather the storm.  Because if he goes to reserves and everyone else gets wiped out before he redeploys...

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Triple Lambdas, charge straight in, Reinforce front.  Just not sure if Ion Cannon or Tractor Beam is better option.

Hmm.

Frankly, Tractor Beam. Ion fire is meaningless because you need to land 2+ hits to start racking up ion tokens, and against a reinforced opponent you're not going to do that.

A single tractor beam shot can shut down the target's green dice, leaving it just reinforce, but if all your ships have reinforced then your own weapons fire will be a bit second-rate.

I think any medium based ship with ailerons or boost should be pretty difficult to pin down (especially in the case of IG-88s, who can get boost and evade and have agility 3)

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Because if he goes to reserves and everyone else gets wiped out before he redeploys...

Then he collects their pay as well?  Awesome!

 

On another note, looks like I forgot to factor Magva into my personal list calculations, and Magva is not a zero factor.  Makes a trade off damage of near 4 hits going through on one of my ships (2 green dice) for almost 4 hits damage on one shuttle (1 green/1 reinforce). Still giving FO half-points and me zilch...

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The whole point of the exercise is to demonstrate how you can't go slow to avoid the initial engagement. Because even the most extreme cases can't avoid it, so everyone else is worse off.

The better alternative is IMO to try to get past the shuttles as fast as possible.

  • But bumping them is again very dangerous because of their angled setup/move. That means bumping one gives the other a range1 shot.
  • Trying to go around them is nigh impossible for the whole list.

I really think the best alternative is to sell them a ship that is ideally below 32 or at least below 64 points and that you are willing to lose. That allows you to make a sacrifice for a good position in return. And then you just need to get half points, or twice half points to win.

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Just make sure the other ships on his list can weather the storm.  Because if he goes to reserves and everyone else gets wiped out before he redeploys...

Yes, but you're not going to send him into reserves unless the Upsilons are sighting up on him. So put him near the board edge, and put the other ships far enough away that the First Order ships can't "change their mind" and go for the others instead - if they set up going for "everyone else" then Eval heads up the board to flank, if they set up going for him he pulls a Houdini and reappears on their tail.

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11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The better alternative is IMO to try to get past the shuttles as fast as possible.

  • But bumping them is again very dangerous because of their angled setup/move. That means bumping one gives the other a range1 shot.
  • Trying to go around them is nigh impossible for the whole list.

I really think the best alternative is to sell them a ship that is ideally below 32 or at least below 64 points and that you are willing to lose. That allows you to make a sacrifice for a good position in return. And then you just need to get half points, or twice half points to win.

Agreed. If you've got a swarm or heavy swarm that can afford to lose a ship it simplifies matters immensely.

Quote

The whole point of the exercise is to demonstrate how you can't go slow to avoid the initial engagement. Because even the most extreme cases can't avoid it, so everyone else is worse off.

As I said above, I'm not convinced you can't avoid it entirely. But I agree avoiding it is difficult, and trying too hard to avoid it puts you at an immense disadvantage.

I think the concept of setting up parallel to your board edge, at the back of your deployment zone, is the wrong approach - yes, it's as far as you can get from them but it's also fundamentally restricting you to going one way. Facing into the board at the front of your deployment zone means the shuttles have to question whether you're going to turn toward your board edge and roll back (which means they want to deploy as far forward as possible) or bank 3/boost/roll to try and escape the 'narrow end' of their firing arc (which means they want to deploy further back).

Worst case - and one of the reasons he now costs a floberty-bajillion points - is Vader, Luke or Kylo Ren. Supernatural Reflexes roll, then 3 bank, then (afterburners) boost for the advanced or supernatural boost, speed 4-5 straight for the others, followed by a barrel roll if required. Since you can do that in either direction, covering that much space is really hard.

And - for that matter - worst, worse case, a squad of Inquisitors can be equipped such that they can all do that, if the Upsilon lucky dip comes up with their name on it.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The whole point of the exercise is to demonstrate how you can't go slow to avoid the initial engagement. Because even the most extreme cases can't avoid it, so everyone else is worse off.

The better alternative is IMO to try to get past the shuttles as fast as possible.

  • But bumping them is again very dangerous because of their angled setup/move. That means bumping one gives the other a range1 shot.
  • Trying to go around them is nigh impossible for the whole list.

I really think the best alternative is to sell them a ship that is ideally below 32 or at least below 64 points and that you are willing to lose. That allows you to make a sacrifice for a good position in return. And then you just need to get half points, or twice half points to win.

As the Defender/Defender/Lambda guy, the list variant I keep thinking about is Onyx/Onyx/Kagi (no upgrades), with Kagi willing to suck up all the Locks.  I figure a focus/evade defender can absorb a range 3, 4-dice focus-only shot or two, and get position later.  If the Upsilons put their fire into Kagi, I'm fine with that.

Then again in Delta/Delta/Palp, a Defender with Focus/Evade/Force is "only" expected to take like 2 damage at Range 3 against two Focus/Lock shots.  A reinforced Lambda takes 3.5-4.  Can probably make something happen.

Seems like a... dubious strategy.  Trust Full Throttle.  Trust Green Dice when you have a bucket of dice mods.  Trust 4 Shields.

.

.

.

I'd be totally cool with an errata to Dormitz for "small and medium base" ships, just so I don't have to think about this nonsense.  There's a difference between something being particularly overpowered, and something being a NPE, just generally gross and toxic to play against.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Triple Lambdas, charge straight in, Reinforce front.  Just not sure if Ion Cannon or Tractor Beam is better option.

Lieutenant Sai (47)
Collision Detector (6)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Darth Vader (14)
ST-321 (4)

Colonel Jendon (46)
Collision Detector (6)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Seventh Sister (9)

Captain Kagi (48)
Collision Detector (6)
Tractor Beam (2)
Freelance Slicer (3)

Total: 199

Total: 196

Sai can coordinate a reinforce, get a reinforce himself, then lock with the title. Kagi will pull all locks in, so considering Sai coordinates him, he can take a lock to use to token strip in defense with the slicer if the opponent picks him as target (Sai is the more important target, though) and he still has his lock after trying to tractor first. Vader and Sister to strip tokens or Force mods for attack, HLC 'cause fighting large bases, pew pew.

I have no clue if this would work, but was a fun thought experiment.

Edit: Crap, forgot they removed Lock from the Lambdas, will need to redo, could probably swap the slicer and vader, hmm...

Edited by kris40k

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3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Lieutenant Sai (47)
Collision Detector (6)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Darth Vader (14)
ST-321 (4)

Colonel Jendon (46)
Collision Detector (6)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Seventh Sister (9)

Captain Kagi (48)
Collision Detector (6)
Tractor Beam (2)
Freelance Slicer (3)

Total: 199

Sai can coordinate a reinforce, get a reinforce himself, then lock with the title. Kagi will pull all locks in, so considering Sai coordinates him, he can take a lock to use to token strip in defense with the slicer if the opponent picks him as target (Sai is the more important target, though) and he still has his lock after trying to tractor first. Vader and Sister to strip tokens or Force mods for attack, HLC 'cause fighting large bases, pew pew.

I have no clue if this would work, but was a fun thought experiment.

Interesting, I'll have to give it a try.  This is the one I'm flying:

Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle - •Lieutenant Sai - 69
    •Lieutenant Sai - Death Squadron Veteran (47)
        Collision Detector (6)
        Jamming Beam (0)
        •Director Krennic (5)
        Freelance Slicer (3)
        Shield Upgrade (4)
        •ST-321 (4)

Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 61
    Omicron Group Pilot - (43)
        Collision Detector (6)
        Jamming Beam (0)
        ISB Slicer (3)
        •0-0-0 (5)
        Shield Upgrade (4)

Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 70
    Omicron Group Pilot - (43)
        Collision Detector (6)
        Jamming Beam (0)
        •Darth Vader (14)
        ISB Slicer (3)
        Shield Upgrade (4)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

But I could swap out Shield Upgrade for better cannons.

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4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

As the Defender/Defender/Lambda guy, the list variant I keep thinking about is Onyx/Onyx/Kagi (no upgrades), with Kagi willing to suck up all the Locks.  I figure a focus/evade defender can absorb a range 3, 4-dice focus-only shot or two, and get position later.  If the Upsilons put their fire into Kagi, I'm fine with that.

Then again in Delta/Delta/Palp, a Defender with Focus/Evade/Force is "only" expected to take like 2 damage at Range 3 against two Focus/Lock shots.  A reinforced Lambda takes 3.5-4.  Can probably make something happen.

Seems like a... dubious strategy.  Trust Full Throttle.  Trust Green Dice when you have a bucket of dice mods.  Trust 4 Shields.

I'd be totally cool with an errata to Dormitz for "small and medium base" ships, just so I don't have to think about this nonsense.  There's a difference between something being particularly overpowered, and something being a NPE, just generally gross and toxic to play against.

I'm pretty sure against a list like that you'd basically have to go after Kagi, since you're losing your target lock if you don't, and a Defender can be agility 3 with focus/evade, so as you point out, the best you're likely to do is cause a "shields mildly inconvenienced" hit.

 

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10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

But I could swap out Shield Upgrade for better cannons.

Trying to beat down the upsilons with heavy laser cannons is the wrong approach, I think; with reinforce, even a quartet of HLCs on T-70s struggles to do more than crease the shields.

Actually, a squad with multiple tractor beams might be interesting. You need to land 3 tractor tokens to be able to force an upsilon shuttle to roll - which might well allow you to force it to roll out of arc....unlike ion cannons, which apply tokens for each hit after the first, tractors convert all the hits, and you only need one hit to reduce agility for subsequent shots.

 

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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8 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Trying to beat down the upsilons with heavy laser cannons is the wrong approach, I think; with reinforce, even a quartet of HLCs on T-70s struggles to do more than crease the shields.

 

Sure, but they arn't stripping green tokens or lowering the agility of the primary first. Past the inital rush, the Ups won't be as stacked in tokens, meaning stripping greens and 0 agility due to tractor will be more important to get the reinforce off and the Lambdas will probably have more shots on target than the Ups with the rear arc during the awkward dogfight afterwards.

Edited by kris40k

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Trying to beat down the upsilons with heavy laser cannons is the wrong approach, I think; with reinforce, even a quartet of HLCs on T-70s struggles to do more than crease the shields.

I was thinking more the Tractors.

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