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matt.sucharski

Illegal Squad at Phoenix / Trip Upsilon (no relation)

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37 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what he told you, then, rather than being deliberately vague?

10 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

I want tangible answers, not just reiterations of the apparent conclusion

I don't know how else to say it, but: sorry, no. I won't invest the time and effort necessary to tell you something you don't even want to hear. You are way too defensive here, for god knows what reason.

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10 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

This is just more anecdotal confirmations though, rather than any evidence. Just saying 'oh yeah this list is OP/terrifying/NPE/what have you' is not enough. How is it guaranteeing shots from both lead Upsilons? How is it pursuing anything that does get past it (which just about every IN6 in the game will since they'll have freedom to deploy outside of where the shuttles can trap them)? How is it so much different from the exact same list in 1st ed? Like I said before, the 'Dorm Storm' is not a new concept. So what is so different now, such that it has changed from a silly gimmick list to a practically unbeatable horror? How are those opening shots not being mitigated by moving such that only one shuttle has a shot, possibly at range 3?
I want tangible answers, not just reiterations of the apparent conclusion.

If your answer is ‘bring I6’s with a bid to deploy after’ then there is a problem! Your solution is now listbuilding around this one specific list.

Unacceptable

And your solution is to double down on an already fever pitch situation, that is high I lists with bid invalidating huge swaths of design space, and pushing out low, and especially mid, I pilots completely.

So what if you are flying a list with the Lambda? They can’t deploy at I6, and they can’t move fast enough to escape the alpha shot. And if you try to, then you are facing the wrong way against a ship with more health, better dial, bigger gun, and better actions. That shuttle that tries (and fails, the 3 bank will catch it no matter what move you do) will never get shots that game.

Because it deploys at I6, any ship that deploys earlier, doesn’t have a speed 5 boost, mathematically can not escape! So you need a new plan.

And the thing is that they take so much killing. They have 12 health with reinforce, and can coordinate. Even with lots of mods and rerolls (which my list had in spades, Sloane Howlrunner for ya) it can be hard to punch damage through.

And with white 2 yards they can get turned around in different directions such that it can be hard to avoid all arcs for very long. 

And I want to stress, IT IS HYPERSPACE LEGAL. With the full brunt and variety of extended it is a beast to crack. In Hyperspace format I don’t think the Rebels, Empire, and possibly even Scum have a reliable answer. In fact I don’t think there is a single Empire list capable of beating it in Hyperspace. 

Its tough, and I’d try again to see what can be done. But there are many ships that literally can not avoid the alpha. And it can eat three fully modded torps and survive. 12 health with two evades and a reinforce to open.

Play it, I promise you will change your tune.

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Yeah, a 3 UPS list was at a Hyperspace Tournament I went to recently. It was flown by an inexperienced player, but still went 3-1, with the loss to another FO list who was able to weather the initial onslaught. I’m not quite to the level of worry as others about the list, but it is growing.

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32 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know how else to say it, but: sorry, no. I won't invest the time and effort necessary to tell you something you don't even want to hear. You are way too defensive here, for god knows what reason.

I don't think he intends to be defensive. He's skeptical, sure, but it doesn't come across as defensive.

 

On the other hand, the counterpoint is that the proof he's asking for involves running through a half dozen or so scenarios, which could take hours to illustrate.

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18 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, a 3 UPS list was at a Hyperspace Tournament I went to recently. It was flown by an inexperienced player, but still went 3-1, with the loss to another FO list who was able to weather the initial onslaught. I’m not quite to the level of worry as others about the list, but it is growing.

This kind of irks me. I think I'd be fine (not excited, but fine) with Hyperspace if it didn't allow FO and Resistance. The other factions seem very plain compared to the baggage of late 1.0 that the FO/Resist bring.

In any case, I'm seriously considering getting 2 more Ups and a conversion kit, just in case.

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1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:

This is just more anecdotal confirmations though, rather than any evidence. Just saying 'oh yeah this list is OP/terrifying/NPE/what have you' is not enough. How is it guaranteeing shots from both lead Upsilons? How is it pursuing anything that does get past it (which just about every IN6 in the game will since they'll have freedom to deploy outside of where the shuttles can trap them)? How is it so much different from the exact same list in 1st ed? Like I said before, the 'Dorm Storm' is not a new concept. So what is so different now, such that it has changed from a silly gimmick list to a practically unbeatable horror? How are those opening shots not being mitigated by moving such that only one shuttle has a shot, possibly at range 3?
I want tangible answers, not just reiterations of the apparent conclusion.

Then go watch some streams and come to your own conclusions. Tell us why the list is beast mode now.

Sometimes you have to react to the meta without fully understanding the whys. I bet some number cruncher will figure out the details to your satisfaction before too long. Until then it sounds like triple Ups is a list to watch out for.

 

*Edit* But to take a guess, I'd say it's that 1.0's top meta are all nerfed, and now the second bests, that were suppressed by top beast lists, are floating to the top.

Edited by Koing907

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1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:

This is just more anecdotal confirmations though, rather than any evidence. Just saying 'oh yeah this list is OP/terrifying/NPE/what have you' is not enough. How is it guaranteeing shots from both lead Upsilons? How is it pursuing anything that does get past it (which just about every IN6 in the game will since they'll have freedom to deploy outside of where the shuttles can trap them)? How is it so much different from the exact same list in 1st ed? Like I said before, the 'Dorm Storm' is not a new concept. So what is so different now, such that it has changed from a silly gimmick list to a practically unbeatable horror? How are those opening shots not being mitigated by moving such that only one shuttle has a shot, possibly at range 3?
I want tangible answers, not just reiterations of the apparent conclusion.

I  mean they told you how it works and posted some diagramns. I'm really not sure how much more explaining is needed??? What do you want besides "anecdote"? Them to craft you a youtube video and send you a link?

It's really simple:

1. I6

2. You can ignore all obsticals on the board

3. Large base + 3 banks cover insane distance.

4. Deploy in the middle/middle edge of the board.

 

Now all you do is pick any opponents ship that is I5 or lower and you WILL get shots. Modded shots. Ace one off the board then run and reinforce all game. Good luck getting behind the front two with the hard turns, and also the rear shuttle btw slow boating to clamp down on any ship that finally makes it around he other two.

And also, seriously, the reinforce with the shields. After your first ship is gone you can't kill them fast enough, before the game time is over, to make up your lost points.

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Exactly @Gibbilo

To the ‘well this all existed in 1st ed’ crowd, let me point out this. 

Fully modded shots are rarer in 2nd ed

Defensive mods, especially double mods, are far rarer _and much weaker_.

Those two factors, remember old school Palp Soontir could basically laugh off a single 4 die attack pretty regularly, meant that the pure attack power in 1st ed was proportionally far weaker than in 2nd ed.

Or put it another way. It’d be like taking me from my cross country days in college 12 years ago and dropping me in the Olympics in 1900. I was only ever a middling competitor in my day, but I would be able to compete against the top athletes in the world from a century earlier. I didn’t change, the field did.

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23 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Out and about in the town itself or in the cantina? I don't remember him being there.

up in the sky, flying away for about 2 seconds (in the same way the falcon is visible in Episode III). It take of vertically from one of the pit when stormtroopers are marching in the city, at the port, than turn and go up from the upper left quadrant of the screen to upper left corner. I have both original shot and all the reelaboration of the scene. It is visible from the '97 reshot

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2 minutes ago, CapitanGuinea said:

up in the sky, flying away for about 2 seconds (in the same way the falcon is visible in Episode III). It take of vertically from one of the pit when stormtroopers are marching in the city, at the port, than turn and go up from the upper left quadrant of the screen to upper left corner. I have both original shot and all the reelaboration of the scene. It is visible from the '97 reshot

So you're talking about the Jumpmaster itself. Interesting. I'll have to take a look. :) 

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ehy, if the Christmas Special is canon, I suppose Special Edition too should be... But we must ask to Lucasfilm now. George said that whenever He edited a film, the newest version is the one he considered the best and to be canonized.

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12 minutes ago, CapitanGuinea said:

here you can see a lot of ships!

there is even the Outrider (not a anonymous yt2400, but the real one)

 

I'm going to have to watch my copy, my internet connect isn't liking the resolution requirement to be able to identify the ships. :( 

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19 minutes ago, CapitanGuinea said:

ehy, if the Christmas Special is canon, I suppose Special Edition too should be... But we must ask to Lucasfilm now. George said that whenever He edited a film, the newest version is the one he considered the best and to be canonized.

The Holiday Special is canon now?!

LUMPY AND ITCHY IN EPISODE 9 - CONFIRMED

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6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know how else to say it, but: sorry, no. I won't invest the time and effort necessary to tell you something you don't even want to hear. You are way too defensive here, for god knows what reason.

So you claim to have had it explained to you (presumably verbally) such that it completely validates the conclusion, you won't take the time or effort to do the same for me, yet you still hold your point of view as correct and chastise me for disagreeing with it?
Alright then.

 

5 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

1. I6

2. You can ignore all obstacles on the board

3. Large base + 3 banks cover insane distance.

4. Deploy in the middle/middle edge of the board.

 

Now all you do is pick any opponents ship that is I5 or lower and you WILL get shots. Modded shots. Ace one off the board then run and reinforce all game. Good luck getting behind the front two with the hard turns, and also the rear shuttle btw slow boating to clamp down on any ship that finally makes it around he other two.

And also, seriously, the reinforce with the shields. After your first ship is gone you can't kill them fast enough, before the game time is over, to make up your lost points.

That's much more what I was asking for, thank you.
1) At deployment they are In6, yes. The rest of the game, they are moving at very low initiative (the highest being 4), as well as all at different initiatives, making coordinating their movements that much more difficult since they must always move in a strict order.

2) Each one can only do that twice (and only two of the ships, post points update). If one happens to cross two obstacles in a single move, it will burn both charges. After that, they will really struggle to maneuver anywhere and still get actions for the aforementioned Reinforce or to ever mod their shots.

3) Forward distance, perhaps - but not sideways. Any time one or more of them is executing a 3-bank, they increase the risk of burning their CD charges and/or positioning their arc in a way that leaves blind spots.

4)If they're in the middle, they can't catch everything unless it is all deployed together in one place. Are there many lists that fundamentally fall apart if split up?

I've not debated the mathematical possibility (or not) of not being shot at all by the shuttles - what is harder to achieve would be a fully modded shot from both lead shuttles closer than range 3, as the area in which these criteria are not all met is much larger. If you can get the targeted ship out of arc of even one of the two shuttles, and at range 3 of the other one, the damage caused won't be anywhere near as meaningful. After that first attack, the shuttles will have a much tougher time getting all the guns on target again, since they'll get in each others' way and can only turn physically so much to the side, and will never have the same level of modification again, since the dial is prohibitive and co-ordinate just trades one action for another - and again, it's all happening at relatively low initiative so the targeting plans it makes are telegraphed.

 

4 hours ago, millertime059 said:

Exactly @Gibbilo

To the ‘well this all existed in 1st ed’ crowd, let me point out this. 

Fully modded shots are rarer in 2nd ed

Defensive mods, especially double mods, are far rarer _and much weaker_.

Those two factors, remember old school Palp Soontir could basically laugh off a single 4 die attack pretty regularly, meant that the pure attack power in 1st ed was proportionally far weaker than in 2nd ed.

Or put it another way. It’d be like taking me from my cross country days in college 12 years ago and dropping me in the Olympics in 1900. I was only ever a middling competitor in my day, but I would be able to compete against the top athletes in the world from a century earlier. I didn’t change, the field did.

Ok, very fair point. I wasn't being rhetorical when I asked this question.
 

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

If your answer is ‘bring I6’s with a bid to deploy after’ then there is a problem! Your solution is now listbuilding around this one specific list.

Unacceptable

I'd say my point was less that one had to bring In6 pilots with a bid to counter the shuttles, and more just identifying something that the shuttle list would have a problem with. It very much strikes me as a 'skew' list in that way, which traditionally have not been all that successful overall.
 

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

And with white 2 yards they can get turned around in different directions such that it can be hard to avoid all arcs for very long. 

True - but surely the biggest issue is avoiding some of the initial rush? Since that's where the tokens are most stacked and the arcs most apty placed?
 

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

And I want to stress, IT IS HYPERSPACE LEGAL. With the full brunt and variety of extended it is a beast to crack. In Hyperspace format I don’t think the Rebels, Empire, and possibly even Scum have a reliable answer. In fact I don’t think there is a single Empire list capable of beating it in Hyperspace.

Certainly it's going to be monumentally more difficult there with the more limited options - doubly so now that Supernatural Vader is so harshly dead.
 

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

Its tough, and I’d try again to see what can be done. But there are many ships that literally can not avoid the alpha. And it can eat three fully modded torps and survive. 12 health with two evades and a reinforce to open.

True, though again it does call back to my earlier point about its nature as a skew list - it devours certain lists but gets completely trounced by others. I suppose it remains to be seen if there is enough of the latter to keep it from becoming too dominant.
 

6 hours ago, millertime059 said:

Play it, I promise you will change your tune.

That's very possible. I have just always been irked by this kind of thing before, where an unexpected list crops up and all and sundry cry bloody murder without a lot to back it up besides 'well I lost to it' or 'it just *is* OP/NPE/etc'. Sometimes they're right (triple Jumps), but mostly I'd say they were not (Dash/Roark is a great example of a skew list like this). And of course it is entirely possible that, on the table, things will be very different than from an analytical point of view - but there are so many apparent weak points in this setup and rush that it is hard to see it as all-dominating or unstoppable.
I suppose the best thing to hope for is that I never have to play against it? I avoid larger events anyway, and no one locally owns three Batshuttles...

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5 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

So you claim to have had it explained to you (presumably verbally) such that it completely validates the conclusion, you won't take the time or effort to do the same for me, yet you still hold your point of view as correct and chastise me for disagreeing with it?

yes, yes exactly that. Expect that I already took time and effort. You just refuse to listen with an open mind.

The part of Gibbilo you left out in your quote: "I  mean they told you how it works and posted some diagramns. I'm really not sure how much more explaining is needed??? What do you want besides "anecdote"? Them to craft you a youtube video and send you a link? " If you think his 4 points were helpful but that I/we didn't try to explain, then that is entirely on you.

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16 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:



4)If they're in the middle, they can't catch everything unless it is all deployed together in one place. Are there many lists that fundamentally fall apart if split up?

 

I think this is a fundamental misconception that's probably stopping your understanding here.

 

They don't need to catch everything. All they need to do is catch one ship I5 or lower and blow it up on turn one. For 90% of the lists being flow right now, that's easy.

 

That has ripple effects for the rest of the game that generally can't be overcome (***within the time allotted for a game***) because, again, reinforce and the hp pool.

I'd also say chances are also decent that they'll manage to kill another ship too along the way before the rest of the enemy list gets behind them, but even if they don't, probably doesn't matter.

If the other list falls apart after being forced to split up that's just gravey.

 

*edit* also don't forget if you are focusing one upsilon, that leaves the other two with modded shots against your ships while the single one reinforces.

If you try harder to arc dodge, take shots of opportunity, make them spread the reinforce tokens amongst the shuttles, that actually is also just playing into your opponent's strategy because of all the damage spread.

Edited by Gibbilo

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On 1/28/2019 at 11:27 PM, GreenDragoon said:

yes, yes exactly that. Expect that I already took time and effort. You just refuse to listen with an open mind.

The part of Gibbilo you left out in your quote: "I  mean they told you how it works and posted some diagramns. I'm really not sure how much more explaining is needed??? What do you want besides "anecdote"? Them to craft you a youtube video and send you a link? " If you think his 4 points were helpful but that I/we didn't try to explain, then that is entirely on you.

All that's been explained is the mechanical reason it happens (Dormitz+Tracking). The diagrams were not especially useful in explaining the point or making at all clear the apparent mathematics that make avoiding the initial rush impossible. The first didn't really show much of anything and the second simply showed token stacks that could have been explained verbally.
Other than that, all I've thus far been told is that I'm just wrong and that it's self evident...but it's not.
If you arn't willing to defend your conclusion with something more than a few vague images and a reference to a blog that explains painfully little about the details of how this apparently always works, only that it does, then why should I just accept it? I am yet to hear why it is apparently not possible to, if not avoid both the lead shuttles arcs, then at least avoid one and reduce the other to a much weaker shot at Range 3? I've repeatedly asked why it is subsequently impossible to avoid the shuttles chasing you despite their awkward position, offset initiatives, and lack of offensive dice modifications that match the levels of the initial round.
These questions seem like they'd have reasonable answers that don't require a Youtube presentation or similar to explain, and I'd fully accept that I am wrong about this if some meaningful answers can be provided. Thus far though, all you have done is told me I'm wrong, refuse to try to explain why, and treat me with scorn. In which case, we clearly have nothing further to say to each other.
 

On 1/29/2019 at 3:52 PM, Gibbilo said:

They don't need to catch everything. All they need to do is catch one ship I5 or lower and blow it up on turn one. For 90% of the lists being flow right now, that's easy.

Fair enough, yes. I can see how that would happen to certain ships, but is it actually impossible to avoid both shuttles having good opening shots on their chosen target? Is there no way to position yourself such that you can dodge one, mitigate the other? Their arcs are wide, for sure, but are still finite - surely there have to be blind spots in whatever advance they make that can be exploited?

As I mentioned earlier, the shuttle list certainly does seem like it preys on certain things - anything slow moving or non-agile is definitely going to struggle to hit those blind spots. What remains to be seen if enough things exist that can avoid the trap, knowing it's coming, that the shuttles are a skew list that falls from popularity relatively fast rather than an inescapable terror list that ends up having to be dealt with through rules or points changes. My instincts lean toward the former.

Edited by MalusCalibur

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