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Force Majeure

20 Point Vulture Droids?

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How cheap will the Vulture Droids be?

Since we are limited to 8 ships per list, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be out of line for ships to fall down to 20 points or less.

Why? Specifically for the Separatist Alliance, you're likely going to want to fly a Vulture swarm + stronger ship like the B-22 or the Sith Infiltrator to get the most out of them. Possibly 8 Vultures alone could be great if you have plenty of extra room for some needed upgrades.

I don't know if I'll play them, but I'm excited to see them.

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54 minutes ago, martini74 said:

If the configuration is zero points, I would think about the 22-24 points.  

22 or 24 seems a bit high, the Mining Guild Tie is 24 points but also gets the benefit of having an extra evasion die. Vulture Droids are going to be quick and easy to pop most of the time at 2 Evasion and 3 Hull. I'm guessing 20-21 points. 

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58 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

22 or 24 seems a bit high, the Mining Guild Tie is 24 points but also gets the benefit of having an extra evasion die. Vulture Droids are going to be quick and easy to pop most of the time at 2 Evasion and 3 Hull. I'm guessing 20-21 points. 

Yeah, this. There's an absolute limit to how much any ship that can be 1 shot can be priced. Even if it's rolling 10 fully modded attack dice, it's still not going to be pulling much value if it can be reliably killed before rolling those attack dice. 

And for a 2 attack ship... 20 points sounds about right. _Maybe_  even 18-19 points.

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6 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Yeah, this. There's an absolute limit to how much any ship that can be 1 shot can be priced. Even if it's rolling 10 fully modded attack dice, it's still not going to be pulling much value if it can be reliably killed before rolling those attack dice. 

And for a 2 attack ship... 20 points sounds about right. _Maybe_  even 18-19 points.

 

You can one-shot 52 point Soontir, or heck even Whisper, so I am not sure I quite understand your point.

They have the worst statline in the game and a strange dial, but I have a feeling FFG will probably place a higher premium on the grappling strut mechanic than we expect. Its a new mechanic and they always seem a bit conservative with mechanics that fundamentally change the activation phase. I wouldn't be surprised if they are 18-20 points and grappling struts are 2-3 points. Or 22-23 points and grappling is free.

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29 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

 

You can one-shot 52 point Soontir, or heck even Whisper, so I am not sure I quite understand your point.

They have the worst statline in the game and a strange dial, but I have a feeling FFG will probably place a higher premium on the grappling strut mechanic than we expect. Its a new mechanic and they always seem a bit conservative with mechanics that fundamentally change the activation phase. I wouldn't be surprised if they are 18-20 points and grappling struts are 2-3 points. Or 22-23 points and grappling is free.

The statistical probability of one-shotting the Vultures is higher than any other ship in the game to an average 3 dice + focus attack. Just because it's possible to one-shot higher cost ships with high dice attacks with more mods, doesn't mean it can equate to one-shotting Vultures with a regular attack. I think a lot of people are overestimating the grappling strut mechanic for them. I'm still assuming the grappling struts are 0 pts and the lowest cost Vulture will be 19-21 pts. 

Edited by RStan

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39 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Yeah, this. There's an absolute limit to how much any ship that can be 1 shot can be priced. Even if it's rolling 10 fully modded attack dice, it's still not going to be pulling much value if it can be reliably killed before rolling those attack dice. 

And for a 2 attack ship... 20 points sounds about right. _Maybe_  even 18-19 points.

Not to mention they top out at Int 3, so just about everything will be shooting them before they get a chance to shoot back.

21 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

 

You can one-shot 52 point Soontir, or heck even Whisper, so I am not sure I quite understand your point.

They have the worst statline in the game and a strange dial, but I have a feeling FFG will probably place a higher premium on the grappling strut mechanic than we expect. Its a new mechanic and they always seem a bit conservative with mechanics that fundamentally change the activation phase. I wouldn't be surprised if they are 18-20 points and grappling struts are 2-3 points. Or 22-23 points and grappling is free.

And Soontir and Whisper are both A) high Int pilots and B) pilots that have stronger repositioning ability to avoid being shot in the first place. Vulture droids will likely fall into flying in formation to benefit from their ship ability which makes them predictable or they are on a rock/debris cloud and at which point you know they will be in a effectively one of two spots, provided they don't barrel roll, that being on the obstacle or being a 2 straight from where they were. 

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If the Vultures end up being less than 23 points each (with applicable upgrades) then you will be forced to either take a large bid or run ships other than the Vultures in your list, at least as long as the 8-ship limit remains.

Or am I missing something?

Edited by NeonWolf

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5 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

If the Vultures end up being less than 25 points each (with applicable upgrades) then you will be forced to either take a large bid or run ships other than the Vultures in your list, at least as long as the 8-ship limit remains.

Or am I missing something?

I think an 8-ship vulture-only  list will have to take the higher Ini pilots and use energy-shell charges, shield upgrades, (etc) to get to 200. I just don't see these [the Ini 1] being above 18 pts w/o grappling, maybe 20-21 with.

Edited by mcintma

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4 minutes ago, mcintma said:

I think an 8-ship vulture-only  list will have to take the higher Ini pilots and use energy-shell charges, shield upgrades, (etc) to get to 200. I just don't see these [the Ini 1] being above 18 pts w/o grappling, maybe 20-21 with.

Well, the Rebel Z-95 and Academy TIE are both 23 points base. The Scum Z-95 and Modified TIE are both 24 points. All I-1. Why would the Vultures be any cheaper than 23 with a free Config? I get the whole bit about the stat-line on the Vulture but comparing them to a TIE and Z-95 is still apples to oranges to bananas. (You can pick which ship is which fruit).

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Just now, NeonWolf said:

Well, the Rebel Z-95 and Academy TIE are both 23 points base. The Scum Z-95 and Modified TIE are both 24 points. All I-1. Why would the Vultures be any cheaper than 23 with a free Config? I get the whole bit about the stat-line on the Vulture but comparing them to a TIE and Z-95 is still apples to oranges to bananas. (You can pick which ship is which fruit).

Vultures = Kiwi?

food_kiwi_fruit.jpg

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35 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

Well, the Rebel Z-95 and Academy TIE are both 23 points base. The Scum Z-95 and Modified TIE are both 24 points. All I-1. Why would the Vultures be any cheaper than 23 with a free Config? I get the whole bit about the stat-line on the Vulture but comparing them to a TIE and Z-95 is still apples to oranges to bananas. (You can pick which ship is which fruit).

Academy TIE is the best comparison, and has a better dial (and way better dial for swarming I'd say) and that 3rd Agi is a big deal when Agi is pretty much all that separates you from death, not to mention Focus > Calc. 

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4 minutes ago, mcintma said:

 

Academy TIE is the best comparison, and has a better dial (and way better dial for swarming I'd say) and that 3rd Agi is a big deal when Agi is pretty much all that separates you from death, not to mention Focus > Calc. 

How does it have a better dial? Can you please explain your position?

Sure it has more AGI, but it doesn't have the Grappling Struts (assuming they are the same cost with this Config).

I'm not saying they won't be under the 23 point threshold, just that it would require a large bid, costly upgrades, or some type of "controller" ship (I like "bellyrub") to round out an 8-ship list.

Since none of the other factions have the ability to take >8 I-1 ships I doubt this one will either, hence the 23 point threshold

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1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

Since none of the other factions have the ability to take >8 I-1 ships I doubt this one will either, hence the 23 point threshold

Well that’s a **** way to look at it, considering “cheap” is their faction identity.

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1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

Since none of the other factions have the ability to take >8 I-1 ships I doubt this one will either, hence the 23 point threshold

I mean no faction can take more than 8 ships regardless, I figure that CIS being a faction genearlly built around having a couple, like three to four, Vultrue droids + other ships would be CIS's whole thing. 

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2 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

If the Vultures end up being less than 23 points each (with applicable upgrades) then you will be forced to either take a large bid or run ships other than the Vultures in your list, at least as long as the 8-ship limit remains.

Or am I missing something?

You are probably going to want to take a Belbullab regardless, so you get a Tactical Relay slot.

 

2 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

Well, the Rebel Z-95 and Academy TIE are both 23 points base. The Scum Z-95 and Modified TIE are both 24 points. All I-1. Why would the Vultures be any cheaper than 23 with a free Config? I get the whole bit about the stat-line on the Vulture but comparing them to a TIE and Z-95 is still apples to oranges to bananas. (You can pick which ship is which fruit).

By that logic, saying they won't be cheaper than 23 because that's what TIEs are is also comparing apples to oranges to bananas.

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1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

How does it have a better dial? Can you please explain your position?

Sure it has more AGI, but it doesn't have the Grappling Struts (assuming they are the same cost with this Config).

I'm not saying they won't be under the 23 point threshold, just that it would require a large bid, costly upgrades, or some type of "controller" ship (I like "bellyrub") to round out an 8-ship list.

Since none of the other factions have the ability to take >8 I-1 ships I doubt this one will either, hence the 23 point threshold

The 3 bank being Red on the Vultures is a huge disadvantage. It's one of the most common maneuvers used when trying to clear a large distance to engagement and even block with a barrel roll. Also the Vultures only have a 1k and 2 talon while the TIE Fighters have 3 and 4 ks. Just because a ship has a hard 2 blue doesn't make it better. 

I'll say it again, Grappling Struts are being overvalued. Just the basis of networked calculations means you generally want 2-3 Vultures together to maximize modding. You can only max out on 2 on an obstacle and they become very predictable as to where they'll be once they've landed. 

What the Vultures should allow in list building is still be present in large numbers (5-7) while allowing a support Belbullab(s) or a Sith Infiltrator to be in the list as well. You can't think of the list as just 8 Vultures because the threshold for the Separatists cheapest ships isn't based on just themselves fitting in a list, but also allowing other more expensive ships to be included. 

Edited by RStan

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20 minutes ago, RStan said:

I'll say it again, Grappling Struts are being overvalued. Just the basis of networked calculations means you generally want 2-3 Vultures together to maximize modding. You can only max out on 2 on an obstacle and they become very predictable as to where they'll be once they've landed. 

The biggest thing Grappling Struts bring for the Vultures is the ability to become unpredictable in the vicinity of asteroids and debris clouds since they can make use of them for their maneuver + action combos as long as they land their maneuver on the obstacle. The ability to become a "turret", even if a pair of them on a single "rock", is an overrated side effect of this and will likely trap allot of SA players into bad decisions.

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1 hour ago, Matanui3 said:

You are probably going to want to take a Belbullab regardless, so you get a Tactical Relay slot.

 

By that logic, saying they won't be cheaper than 23 because that's what TIEs are is also comparing apples to oranges to bananas.

I am saying they will be 23 points because that is the cheapest a ship can be and still limit it to 8x of that ship. Not because it is a TIE or Z. I'm not saying I'm correct either, just the logic pattern I saw at that time.

54 minutes ago, RStan said:

What the Vultures should allow in list building is still be present in large numbers (5-7) while allowing a support Belbullab(s) or a Sith Infiltrator to be in the list as well. You can't think of the list as just 8 Vultures because the threshold for the Separatists cheapest ships isn't based on just themselves fitting in a list, but also allowing other more expensive ships to be included. 

I don't disagree with this idea. That doesn't mean that FFG will agree or that they won't "player proof" the ship by making it the same cost as a TIE. Also, six 23 point ships is 138 points, which leaves 62 points for Belbullab or upgrades. Drop to 5 and you have 85 points for an Infiltrator.

Anyone want to place bets that there will be a ship that is cheaper than 23 points after the update on Monday?

Edited by NeonWolf
added math

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