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GrumpyBatman

Beanstalk on the Boat!

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2 hours ago, Gundark said:

This is me too.  I ended up buying the physical copy at my LGS, but usually I like to buy the pdf first. I usually don't buy the physical unless I'm gonna run it, but I figure I can use stuff from there in a space campaign if i don't run android. 

So this is embarrassing. i played the LCG pretty extensively, but it wasn't until I got my hands on the book that I noticed that New Angles is in Ecuador?  There isn't much in the way of history in the book, but it's a US territory in Ecuador? Am I understanding that correctly? 

So, the thing about space (yay, naval space command crash course in rocket science) is that its all cheaper the closer you are to the equator. You can imagine the etymology of ecuador's name (it's literally spanish for equator). If you can imagine a spinning tennis ball, with a small string on it that has a small knot at the end, if you picture the string at the center line of the ball, that string is going to stick straight out because of centrifugal force, right? But if you put that string, say, at hte very top of the ball, it wont' stand straight up in the air. Basically, the closer to put stuff to the equator, the cheaper, easier, and more stable it all is. This isn't to say it'd never, ever be possible to build a space elevator in, say, New York, but it would be a much bigger challenge than building it along the equator. So considering the beanstalk is earth's first space elevator, it makes sense it's basically right on the equator. 

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25 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

So, the thing about space (yay, naval space command crash course in rocket science) is that its all cheaper the closer you are to the equator. You can imagine the etymology of ecuador's name (it's literally spanish for equator). If you can imagine a spinning tennis ball, with a small string on it that has a small knot at the end, if you picture the string at the center line of the ball, that string is going to stick straight out because of centrifugal force, right? But if you put that string, say, at hte very top of the ball, it wont' stand straight up in the air. Basically, the closer to put stuff to the equator, the cheaper, easier, and more stable it all is. This isn't to say it'd never, ever be possible to build a space elevator in, say, New York, but it would be a much bigger challenge than building it along the equator. So considering the beanstalk is earth's first space elevator, it makes sense it's basically right on the equator. 

Not to try to outphysics anyone (not my speciality), but I'd think that if you tried to build a space elivator with the same principals as New Angeles in NY, it would end up slanting into the sky in a southerly angle, and there would likely be all kinds of other forces working against the beanstalk too

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I guess a space elevator would be built "top down", and this is much easier to do if you can put the endpoint in geostationary orbit, which requires it to be located on the equator.

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5 minutes ago, Colgrevance said:

I guess a space elevator would be built "top down", and this is much easier to do if you can put the endpoint in geostationary orbit, which requires it to be located on the equator.

They did both with the beanstalk. One team working down, the working up. They met at what is now Midway station.

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1 minute ago, drainsmith said:

They did both with the beanstalk. One team working down, the working up. They met at what is now Midway station.

Doesn't work that way.. the beanstalk was built _from_ the midway building both up and down..

Basically the origin point is in the geosynchronous orbit. From there they spooled a "string" both ways (so it stays in the orbit, using also the captured asteroid as counterweight..). I have a suspicion the science is not exactly accurate, but it's close enough for sci-fi purposes..

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2 minutes ago, drainsmith said:

They did both with the beanstalk. One team working down, the working up. They met at what is now Midway station.

Thanks for clarifying, I remember reading about it in Worlds of Android, but could not recall any details.

I wonder how much of the book is still useful, now that Shadow of the Beanstalk is out?

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Just now, Colgrevance said:

Thanks for clarifying, I remember reading about it in Worlds of Android, but could not recall any details.

I wonder how much of the book is still useful, now that Shadow of the Beanstalk is out?

Current opinion seems to be "quite useful," and I count myself as one with that opinion as well.  Stellar sourcebook!

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1 minute ago, sphujala said:

Doesn't work that way.. the beanstalk was built _from_ the midway building both up and down..

Basically the origin point is in the geosynchronous orbit. From there they spooled a "string" both ways (so it stays in the orbit, using also the captured asteroid as counterweight..). I have a suspicion the science is not exactly accurate, but it's close enough for sci-fi purposes..

Ah, right! Had it a bit backwards.

1 minute ago, Colgrevance said:

Thanks for clarifying, I remember reading about it in Worlds of Android, but could not recall any details.

I wonder how much of the book is still useful, now that Shadow of the Beanstalk is out?

Still very useful. WoA is much larger than SotB.

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4 minutes ago, sphujala said:

Doesn't work that way.. the beanstalk was built _from_ the midway building both up and down..

Basically the origin point is in the geosynchronous orbit. From there they spooled a "string" both ways (so it stays in the orbit, using also the captured asteroid as counterweight..). I have a suspicion the science is not exactly accurate, but it's close enough for sci-fi purposes..

You summed it up well!  For those interested in the "why" behind it, this discussion handles it pretty well: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/71968/is-it-better-to-build-a-space-elevator-from-geo-down-to-the-surface-of-the-earth

 

 

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You could technically gave a space elevator that is not located on the equator, but it is hard to think how it could be built.  Because a space elevator is held in place by balancing the weight of the earth-side cable with the centripetal pull on the space-side cable,  it has to be unwound both up and down from a central point (in this case Midway Station).  If you want to secure the bottom end of this cable, you want it to be staying in once place, which means the central point (again, Midway station) better always be above the same spot on earth.  Such geosynchronous orbits are only possible at the equator.  

I suppose you could then start dragging the cable to a new location, unwinding (I think) more cable at the top to compensate for the new situation, but the forces involved are pretty extreme.

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8 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

You could technically gave a space elevator that is not located on the equator, but it is hard to think how it could be built.  Because a space elevator is held in place by balancing the weight of the earth-side cable with the centripetal pull on the space-side cable,  it has to be unwound both up and down from a central point (in this case Midway Station).  If you want to secure the bottom end of this cable, you want it to be staying in once place, which means the central point (again, Midway station) better always be above the same spot on earth.  Such geosynchronous orbits are only possible at the equator.  

I suppose you could then start dragging the cable to a new location, unwinding (I think) more cable at the top to compensate for the new situation, but the forces involved are pretty extreme.

If you want it to be naturally sustaining. I mean, if you're getting into hypotheticals, you could stabilize an elevator at other locations with tons of thrusters or something. It wouldn't be convenient, but if you're in a setting that has solved cheap, clean, unlimited energy, and suitably advanced computer and propulsion systems, I'm sure there's a math that can put one of these things anywhere on the planet. But yeah, since the android setting only has the one space elevator, it makes sense that it's at the equator. 

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Given how much wealth the one space-elevator aka beanstalk is giving to New Angeles, I think other options would have been considered, but have not provided any good solutions.. (I don't yet have the SotB book.. have read most of the novels.. got the WoA book a while ago, haven't read it yet..)

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47 minutes ago, sphujala said:

Given how much wealth the one space-elevator aka beanstalk is giving to New Angeles, I think other options would have been considered, but have not provided any good solutions.. (I don't yet have the SotB book.. have read most of the novels.. got the WoA book a while ago, haven't read it yet..)

There are other locations that have been proposed for another space elevator, and construction has begun for the base of one on Lake Victoria, Kenya (if I remember correctly). 

Why haven't they been built?  It may be that they are very expansive, and would have to compete with the Beanstalk.  It may be that certain corporations keep local governments tied up so that progress isn't made.

EDIT:  Maybe a falling out between the Weyland Consortium and Melange Mining might convince MM to support a new elevator.  They probably have enough clout to make some progress.

Edited by TheSapient

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2 hours ago, Masablasta said:

I think I know what your confusion is. If you preordered the book from FFG the novella showed up in your cart so you could preorder it at the same time, however if you looked at the quantity it was set to zero. Same thing with the cards, if you clicked on one pack to preorder the other two showed up in the cart at zero quantity so you could add them to your preorder without having to make several orders and pay for shipping on each one. I wish they had a better system for ordering because I really didn't want to pay shipping twice, once for the book and novella and a second time for the cards as there wasn't a way for me to add the cards to my book/novella order.

That's what they explained to me on the phone. I was able to work things out with them to my satisfaction though so it's all good.

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So yeah read the book. I love the graceful favour system, really streamlined form of obligation from EotE with room for dynamic interactions. Really glad that they upgraded the social mechanics in the core.

Edited by HelloRPG

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I have SotB in print, can’t wait to get the pdf. I would definitely appreciate Worlds of Android getting a pdf release at some point as well. (Rapidly running out of room for print books!

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1 hour ago, TCArknight said:

Well, Undercity is now available on Drive Thru (epub and mobi), so hopefully that means SotB isn't far behind

It is listed as a watermarked PDF and there is no PDF in it. Do you know if it has the section with the Genesys rules?

 

I don't want to download it until I know what I will be getting. I am quite disappointed about not seeing a PDF option.

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2 hours ago, Torg Smith said:

It is listed as a watermarked PDF and there is no PDF in it. Do you know if it has the section with the Genesys rules?

 

I don't want to download it until I know what I will be getting. I am quite disappointed about not seeing a PDF option.

I got it as an epub or mobi option.   Since I have both main readers, and FBreader which can read all of the formats, I ordered it.  Especially since it was on sale for 3.99

 

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Just a note, joining some other comments. I pulled out my Worlds of Android book this morning to flip through it a bit before heading off for coffee (and further SotB read), and without a doubt, Worlds of Android is still highly useful in conjunction with the new book. 

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22 hours ago, Torg Smith said:

Do you know if [the EPub edition of AN: Undercity] has the section with the Genesys rules?

I'm also wondering about that. I'd be fine with paying a few dollars for a digital copy, but less so with paying more for the physical; due to limited gaming-shelf space.

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3 hours ago, Cantriped said:

I'm also wondering about that. I'd be fine with paying a few dollars for a digital copy, but less so with paying more for the physical; due to limited gaming-shelf space.

Reportedly no, and it's also not a watermarked PDF but an epub and a mobi.  I own the physical copy and can confirm they're in there.

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