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Typherian

Which game force power equates to which "movie" power?

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I got my Force and Destiny core rulebook last Tuesday and have been going through it to start a new F&D based game (I've had EotE since 2015)

I was trying to find out which game powers matched up with things we see in movies or read in the books.

 

Lightning turned out to be easy to find, it was mentioned for Protect/Unleash. 

Force Push - is that Move, or would that also be Unleash?  (to be specific I'm talking about the ability Obi-Wan uses to push back and knock down a cluster of battle droids at the end of the first battle in Episode 1, and when Maul pushes Obi-Wan over the edge also in Episode 1)

Force Choke - would that be Heal/Harm?  If not, then what would the effect of Harm be like?

Force Run - I thought this would be in Enhance, but I didn't see anything regarding increasing run speed.  Do you use it to boost an athletics check and narratively increase the run speed, or is there another power better suited to this?

 

Thanks for any insight on this!

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Force push is Move, though someone will probably suggest Bind as a possibility, because one of the upgrades allows you to slide them away or toward you. To do what Obi-Wan does, you need both strength and magnitude upgrades.

Force Choke is Bind, with the upgrade that allows you to do damage if you use dark pips. You can also do strain equal to your willpower with an upgrade.

Harm is more like life drain, depending on your upgrades, though you could narratively describe it however you like (as with almost everything in this game).

I've primarily used Enhance for Force speed. That can be narrative, using the base power to add your force dice to Athletics, or the right column, Force leap, but describing it as running instead of jumping (especially after you've picked up the range upgrade).

Hope this helps.

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4 hours ago, Typherian said:

I got my Force and Destiny core rulebook last Tuesday and have been going through it to start a new F&D based game (I've had EotE since 2015)

I was trying to find out which game powers matched up with things we see in movies or read in the books.

Lightning turned out to be easy to find, it was mentioned for Protect/Unleash. 

Force Push - is that Move, or would that also be Unleash?  (to be specific I'm talking about the ability Obi-Wan uses to push back and knock down a cluster of battle droids at the end of the first battle in Episode 1, and when Maul pushes Obi-Wan over the edge also in Episode 1)

Force Choke - would that be Heal/Harm?  If not, then what would the effect of Harm be like?

Force Run - I thought this would be in Enhance, but I didn't see anything regarding increasing run speed.  Do you use it to boost an athletics check and narratively increase the run speed, or is there another power better suited to this?

Thanks for any insight on this!

Force Push is pretty much intended to be covered by the Move power, as confirmed by primary designer Sam Stewart.  Use the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade with Strength and Magnitude upgrades to affect multiple foes.  Now admittedly, exactly how it works mechanically is more a case of "up to the GM to suss out" as there's a number of different ways you can go.  Do a forum search for Move, and you're bound to come up with threads that discuss how using Move as a Force push/slam effect works against minions.

Force Choke = this is 100% the Bind power, especially the Mastery Upgrade that lets you inflict crits if you spend dark side pips to generate your Force points.

Force Run = closest match is Enhance with the Force Leap control upgrades, and just saying that the character is doing straight-line super-fast running rather than the big leaps we see Luke doing in the original films (especially Rotj) or various Jedi doing in the prequels.

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So there's very few things you see in the canon media that can't be skinned onto more than one game mechanic in this system...

Force Choke, which ppl are insisting is absolutely Bind, could also absolutely be achieved with the Move Power, with the Control Upgrade for "Fine Manipulation", that lets you do at a distance what you can do with your hands. Basically a creating ranged Brawl check.

Pretty sure there's also a Talent that lets you move your opponent away after an attack, that could also be skinned as "Force Push".

Force Speed could ALSO be achieved with the Move Power, by simply moving yourself with the proper Silhouette and Take upgrades, and skinning it as moving your feet. There is also a Talent that gives you a free additional Maneuver (forget what it is off the top...).

So yea...

Bottom line, there is no single or "right" way to do hardly anything in this system. As it is a narrative system, and is designed to give the Players the latitude to take control of the narrative through a variety of mechanics.

Even Destiny Points could be spent to achieve narrative results and skinned as certain Force Powers.

Be. Open.

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5 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Force Push is pretty much intended to be covered by the Move power, as confirmed by primary designer Sam Stewart.  Use the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade with Strength and Magnitude upgrades to affect multiple foes.  Now admittedly, exactly how it works mechanically is more a case of "up to the GM to suss out" as there's a number of different ways you can go.  Do a forum search for Move, and you're bound to come up with threads that discuss how using Move as a Force push/slam effect works against minions.

Force Choke = this is 100% the Bind power, especially the Mastery Upgrade that lets you inflict crits if you spend dark side pips to generate your Force points.

Force Run = closest match is Enhance with the Force Leap control upgrades, and just saying that the character is doing straight-line super-fast running rather than the big leaps we see Luke doing in the original films (especially Rotj) or various Jedi doing in the prequels.

Force run could also be Quick Movement from the Pathfinder spec

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9 hours ago, emsquared said:

So there's very few things you see in the canon media that can't be skinned onto more than one game mechanic in this system...

Force Choke, which ppl are insisting is absolutely Bind, could also absolutely be achieved with the Move Power, with the Control Upgrade for "Fine Manipulation", that lets you do at a distance what you can do with your hands. Basically a creating ranged Brawl check.

Regarding Force Choke as the Move power + fine manipulation Control Upgrade, that got officially shot down by Sam Stewart during the early days of the system (prior to AoR and long before F&D's beta).

Though I suppose if one is just simply after damage, then Influence's basic power works for a "Force choke" style of effect, and apparently the current canon explanation for Luke's "choking" of the guards in RotJ is that he used some form of mind trick rather than the simpler explanation of him simply using his father's favorite Force trick.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Regarding Force Choke as the Move power + fine manipulation Control Upgrade, that got officially shot down by Sam Stewart during the early days of the system (prior to AoR and long before F&D's beta).

First time I've heard that after talking about doing it this way in this forum for years. Would love to read how that dialogue went.

The only reason to not allow it is; there is no reason.

If you treat it like a "normal"attack as you should, so requiring the check with appropriate melee Difficulty (Adversary?) and Setback(s) for the range, make it go through Soak (as again it's still just Brawl at range), it doesn't prevent actions, and so in no way is it as good as Bind, and it's far less effective than just slamming them, or using a Lightsaber at range.

We've allowed it at our table since the beginning, and the only time ppl have ever used it is out of combat, basically for dramatic effect. It's not an optimal attack by the time you can get to it.

No reason not to allow it.

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Even if Sam Stewart did say this, his word is not the law. For "errata" in general, unless FFG plans to send out a "fixed" copy to me and everyone else who bought their books, I'll only MAYBE consider it, and only if it makes the game more fun, not less. Especially Force powers require creativity to use in a variety of ways, so reducing the available space for that creativity on the word of one dev is something nobody should do.

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Harm is kinda nice and vague and could potentially cover pretty much anything from choking to lightning, not to mention the dreaded "force hernia".

I like the idea to use influence to make someone believe they're being choked, but I'm not sure I'd let it do damage. I'd consider using the asphyxation rules though, but I'd also consider making it "imaginary damage" that dissappered the moment influence stopped working.

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On 1/20/2019 at 8:31 AM, emsquared said:

First time I've heard that after talking about doing it this way in this forum for years. Would love to read how that dialogue went.

The only reason to not allow it is; there is no reason.

If you treat it like a "normal"attack as you should, so requiring the check with appropriate melee Difficulty (Adversary?) and Setback(s) for the range, make it go through Soak (as again it's still just Brawl at range), it doesn't prevent actions, and so in no way is it as good as Bind, and it's far less effective than just slamming them, or using a Lightsaber at range.

We've allowed it at our table since the beginning, and the only time ppl have ever used it is out of combat, basically for dramatic effect. It's not an optimal attack by the time you can get to it.

No reason not to allow it.

I wouldn't say there's "no reason not to allow this".  There's actually several I thought up within about 20 seconds of reading your post.  First, it's clearly not intended.  If it was, the rules to execute the attack and damage would be baked into one of the Control upgrades (like they are for Bind).  Second, Move is already a very useful power, giving it more versatility only makes it even stronger.  Third, using the force to choke someone has always been a separate ability from standard telekinesis in both D20 and WEGS D6.  Fourth, the text of the Control Upgrade says you gain the ability to perform fine manipulation of held items as though you were using your hands.  While you could definitely argue that as being able to choke someone, its not what comes to my mind when I think of "fine manipulation".  I get the impression its more like when you see padawans put their lightsaber together using the force.  Even the example it provides is operating a control board.

Now, I'm not opposed to you or any other GM ruling that Move can be used to choke someone.  If it works for your game, then that's great!  I only brought up the above arguments because you said their was "no reason not to allow it".  I would posit, that's not quite true.

Side question I'm curious about: do you still use Bind in your games?  I ask because Move could easily be used to pin someone in place, so I was just curious.  If you don't use Bind, I'm actually very curious how you handle the binding aspect of Move?

Edited by TalosX

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On 1/23/2019 at 8:31 PM, penpenpen said:

Harm is kinda nice and vague and could potentially cover pretty much anything from choking to lightning, not to mention the dreaded "force hernia".

I like the idea to use influence to make someone believe they're being choked, but I'm not sure I'd let it do damage. I'd consider using the asphyxation rules though, but I'd also consider making it "imaginary damage" that dissappered the moment influence stopped working.

Actually the RAW can already handle using Influence to convince someone they're being choked.  Influence's basic power lets you stress the mind of your opponent causing some Strain damage (Strength Upgrade increases it a bit).  Just narrate it as your opponent thinks they're choking and that's what is causing the stress.  Even though no real damage is occurring.

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10 hours ago, TalosX said:

I wouldn't say there's "no reason not to allow this".  There's actually several I thought up within about 20 seconds of reading your post.  First, it's clearly not intended.  If it was, the rules to execute the attack and damage would be baked into one of the Control upgrades (like they are for Bind).  Second, Move is already a very useful power, giving it more versatility only makes it even stronger.  Third, using the force to choke someone has always been a separate ability from standard telekinesis in both D20 and WEGS D6.  Fourth, the text of the Control Upgrade says you gain the ability to perform fine manipulation of held items as though you were using your hands.  While you could definitely argue that as being able to choke someone, its not what comes to my mind when I think of "fine manipulation".  

First, the rules to make the attack don't have to be baked into the Power because they are baked into the system. The Influence Power for example doesn't explain how to make a social check in the social check upgrade. It's already in the book.

Second, Move is very versatile and therefore powerful, there are lots of powerful (to the point of being broken) things in the system, choking ppl with Move is not one of those. Arguably other aspects of Move are, but allowing a PC to do something that clearly makes narrative sense (GM: "Whoa whoa whoa, you can touch anything else with the Force to move it manipulate it, but not throats.", PC: "Uh, wha?") is not one of them.

Third, so what? But also, those systems are broken messes, and both operate under different game design ethoses, not only from each other, but most especially this system.

Fourth, Move basic says it's usable on objects. If people can be "objects", throats can be "items".

Edited by emsquared
Who's>Whoa

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10 hours ago, emsquared said:

First, the rules to make the attack don't have to be baked into the Power because they are baked into the system. The Influence Power for example doesn't explain how to make a social check in the social check upgrade. It's already in the book.

Second, Move is very versatile and therefore powerful, there are lots of powerful (to the point of being broken) things in the system, choking ppl with Move is not one of those. Arguably other aspects of Move are, but allowing a PC to do something that clearly makes narrative sense (GM: "Whoa whoa whoa, you can touch anything else with the Force to move it manipulate it, but not throats.", PC: "Uh, wha?") is not one of them.

Third, so what? But also, those systems are broken messes, and both operate under different game design ethoses, not only from each other, but most especially this system.

Fourth, Move basic says it's usable on objects. If people can be "objects", throats can be "items".

1)  Influence absolutely does have the rules for social checks baked into it's text.  The Control Upgrade states that any Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation roll can be made adding Force Dice.  Those dice can then be spent to increase successes or advantages.  So you're completely wrong on this one.

2)  The old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" really applies here.  Just because something else is really strong and/or broken, doesn't mean you should break other aspects of the game.  With that line of thinking, I could destroy the entire system making it completely un-playable.

3)  I wasn't arguing on the specific design ethos's of the past Star Wars RPG systems.  I was pointing out that every official game developer, who all had at least a tiny modicum of oversight from Lucas Arts, have all been unanimous in drawing a clear distinction between force choking and moving and object.  Their basic premise may be telekinesis, but their clearly a line being drawn between the two.

4)  Yeah, this is entirely a personal correlation on your part.  I then could say: your eardrums and eyelids are items, so I can use Move to pinch them shut rendering you completely blind and deaf right!?

Don't take offense.  I actually don't oppose your idea.  I just feel their are as many reasons not to allow your change, as their are to approve it.  I'm actually rather conflicted on the idea of using Move to choke someone.  I have issues with Bind in general.  Everything it does it technically a part of telekinetic application of the force (aka Move).  Honestly, I think Move should have another Control Upgrade or two to allow you the user to freeze someone and choke them.  Force powers are already a huge XP sink, so I've always disliked that Bind was pretty clearly stepping on Move's toes.

Edited by TalosX

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On 1/19/2019 at 1:09 PM, Typherian said:

I got my Force and Destiny core rulebook last Tuesday and have been going through it to start a new F&D based game (I've had EotE since 2015)

I was trying to find out which game powers matched up with things we see in movies or read in the books.

 

Lightning turned out to be easy to find, it was mentioned for Protect/Unleash. 

Force Push - is that Move, or would that also be Unleash?  (to be specific I'm talking about the ability Obi-Wan uses to push back and knock down a cluster of battle droids at the end of the first battle in Episode 1, and when Maul pushes Obi-Wan over the edge also in Episode 1)

Force Choke - would that be Heal/Harm?  If not, then what would the effect of Harm be like?

Force Run - I thought this would be in Enhance, but I didn't see anything regarding increasing run speed.  Do you use it to boost an athletics check and narratively increase the run speed, or is there another power better suited to this?

 

Thanks for any insight on this!

For Force run use force jump under enhance but just jump vertically like the control upgrade says then your good.  You can do it twice in one turn as a maneuver.  Also remember the book says you cant do 3 maneuvers in one turn but as long as you have ugraded it fully you can pretty much move up to medium range twice in one turn.

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33 minutes ago, Metalghost said:

For Force run use force jump under enhance but just jump vertically like the control upgrade says then your good.  You can do it twice in one turn as a maneuver.  Also remember the book says you cant do 3 maneuvers in one turn but as long as you have ugraded it fully you can pretty much move up to medium range twice in one turn.

You could still use the force jump twice as a maneuver plus once more as an action for a total of three force jumps.

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2 hours ago, Metalghost said:

For Force run use force jump under enhance but just jump vertically like the control upgrade says then your good.  You can do it twice in one turn as a maneuver.  Also remember the book says you cant do 3 maneuvers in one turn but as long as you have ugraded it fully you can pretty much move up to medium range twice in one turn.

I think you mean horizontal, not vertical. 😝

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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15 hours ago, Rogues Rule said:

You could still use the force jump twice as a maneuver plus once more as an action for a total of three force jumps.

That interpretation up to your gm but the book says you are not allowed to do 3 maneuvers in one turn.  Doing it as your action is still doing a maneuver so our gm does not allow it.  Maybe your gm is fine with it.

This is from the book Edge of the empire Pg. 203. Also same page but under Action Limitations if you use a manuever as an action that action now counts as a maneuver.  So no according to the book you cannot use your action as a maneuver if you have done two already in the same turn.

E X C H A N G E AN
A C T I O N F O R A
M A N E U V E R

A character may exchange
his action for an additional
maneuver during his turn. He may then perform any
maneuver he would be able to perform normally, following
all the rules that govern maneuvers. However, he
still may not perform more than two maneuvers during
his turn, no matter how he gained access to them.

 

But like I said above your GM can allow this since its his game.  He's allowed to alter the rules if he wants.

Edited by Metalghost

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6 minutes ago, Metalghost said:

That interpretation up to your gm but the book says you are not allowed to do 3 maneuvers in one turn.  Doing it as your action is still doing a maneuver so our gm does not allow it.  Maybe your gm is fine with it.

Actually, Sam Stewart himself has said that yes, if you have the upgrade to use Force Leap as a maneuver, you can indeed use it twice as a maneuver and once more as an action.

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On 2/27/2019 at 6:35 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, Sam Stewart himself has said that yes, if you have the upgrade to use Force Leap as a maneuver, you can indeed use it twice as a maneuver and once more as an action.

You need to link it please because what I quoted above from the book specifically says you cannot use your action as a maneuver if you have already used two maneuvers in the same turn.  If he said this he is directly contradicting the book.  It's up to the gm anyways how he wants to do this regardless.

I edited my post above with what the book specifically says and where it says it.

 

Edited by Metalghost

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15 minutes ago, Metalghost said:

You need to link it please because what I quoted above from the book specifically says you cannot use your action as a maneuver if you have already used two maneuvers in the same turn.  If he said this he is directly contradicting the book.  It's up to the gm anyways how he wants to do this regardless.

I edited my post above with what the book specifically says and where it says it.

You’re not exchanging an action for a maneuver. Unless you have the specific upgrade, Force Leap is normally an action to begin with. With the upgrade, you’re allowed to use a maneuver to use the power. As such, given that you get two maneuvers and one action, this allows you to use Force Leap three times, twice as maneuvers through the upgrade, and once as an action as is standard for the power. This was covered by Sam in one of the Order 66 podcasts. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/19/2019 at 1:09 PM, Typherian said:

I got my Force and Destiny core rulebook last Tuesday and have been going through it to start a new F&D based game (I've had EotE since 2015)

I was trying to find out which game powers matched up with things we see in movies or read in the books.

 

Lightning turned out to be easy to find, it was mentioned for Protect/Unleash. 

Force Push - is that Move, or would that also be Unleash?  (to be specific I'm talking about the ability Obi-Wan uses to push back and knock down a cluster of battle droids at the end of the first battle in Episode 1, and when Maul pushes Obi-Wan over the edge also in Episode 1)

Force Choke - would that be Heal/Harm?  If not, then what would the effect of Harm be like?

Force Run - I thought this would be in Enhance, but I didn't see anything regarding increasing run speed.  Do you use it to boost an athletics check and narratively increase the run speed, or is there another power better suited to this?

 

Thanks for any insight on this!

nm think I posted twice and cant delete this lol

Edited by Metalghost

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On 2/28/2019 at 1:41 AM, Metalghost said:

You need to link it please because what I quoted above from the book specifically says you cannot use your action as a maneuver if you have already used two maneuvers in the same turn.  If he said this he is directly contradicting the book.  It's up to the gm anyways how he wants to do this regardless.

I edited my post above with what the book specifically says and where it says it.

 

Thing is, the leap is not "natively" a maneuver. When you first get it, its an Action that you can take to move yourself. Only with an upgrade can you use it as a Maneuver, and then, it says you MAY use it as a maneuver, not that you have to. So if you simply don't use that control upgrade for your final leap, you can leap three times total.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Metalghost said:

You need to link it please because what I quoted above from the book specifically says you cannot use your action as a maneuver if you have already used two maneuvers in the same turn.  If he said this he is directly contradicting the book.  It's up to the gm anyways how he wants to do this regardless.

I edited my post above with what the book specifically says and where it says it.

 

You can you force leap as an action just because you have the upgrade to use it as a manuever does not mean you have to

 

Edited by Daeglan

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