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pkreynolds

Will Vulture swarms be the new meta swarm list?

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Without the points we can’t know for sure, but based on the stats and the fact that FFG has limited ship count to 8 we can guess that Vultures will be cheaper than TIE/ln Fighters. If it’s possible to field 7-8x Vulture with Treacherous/Energy Shell that’s a pretty terrifying swarm.

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8 minutes ago, pkreynolds said:

Without the points we can’t know for sure, but based on the stats and the fact that FFG has limited ship count to 8 we can guess that Vultures will be cheaper than TIE/ln Fighters. If it’s possible to field 7-8x Vulture with Treacherous/Energy Shell that’s a pretty terrifying swarm.

You have one core assumption which I think is very unlikely, Vultures (much less any Separatist droid fighter, so Hyena's and Tri's included) getting talent slots. The abilities of the Limiteds combined with the Vulture droid's configuration is enough for the chassis. If Magna Guard pilots are included later on I could see them getting Talent slots though, just not the droid fighters/bombers.

Edited by Hiemfire

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I'm sure we'll see Vulture swarms out and about, but I doubt they'll replace other swarm lists. They'll just be a different type of swarm that plays in its own unique way.

And honestly, I beginning to think Vultures won't be priced much (if at all) less than TIE Fighters. For what the Vultures lose in agility, maneuverability, and no Focus action, they make up for in sharing Calculate tokens, Grappling Struts, multiple "unique" pilots that all share the same pilot ability, and a missile slot for the Energy-Shell Charges.

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I also agree pure Vultures won't be better than average. But a Belbullab plus 5 or 6 Vultures depending on upgrades and pilot choices looks like it is going to be very good. A Belbullab with a tactical relay and one of the synergistic pilots is going to be a major boost in the power of the Vultures.

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5 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

And honestly, I beginning to think Vultures won't be priced much (if at all) less than TIE Fighters. For what the Vultures lose in agility, maneuverability, and no Focus action, they make up for in sharing Calculate tokens, Grappling Struts, multiple "unique" pilots that all share the same pilot ability, and a missile slot for the Energy-Shell Charges.

Possibly not, but they should (be priced lower). A single calculate token is roughly half a good as a focus, remember most of the present droid ships have Advanced Droid Brain giving two.

Thus 8 vultures will equivalently only be able to take "4 focus" in total, which is significantly worse action economy for the swarm as a whole compared to a TIE Academy swarm. Sharing is great but it will eat up the calculate tokens, and leave none for attack, and a two dice unmodded attack will hardly make a scratch even in 2.0 - they need to be cheaper, to field weapons and upgrades, or they are DOA.

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13 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

Possibly not, but they should (be priced lower). A single calculate token is roughly half a good as a focus, remember most of the present droid ships have Advanced Droid Brain giving two.

Thus 8 vultures will equivalently only be able to take "4 focus" in total, which is significantly worse action economy for the swarm as a whole compared to a TIE Academy swarm. Sharing is great but it will eat up the calculate tokens, and leave none for attack, and a two dice unmodded attack will hardly make a scratch even in 2.0 - they need to be cheaper, to field weapons and upgrades, or they are DOA.

Two calculates is preferable to a focus, though. Not having to choose which ship has the calculate before you spend it is huge. Like, yeah, it balances out a bit that the others won’t have the calculate to spend, but you still get to choose one or two Vultures to have a pretty dang good round.

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Unlike TIE swarms, which have multiple unique pilots with complimentary abilities, or Scum swarms, which have different ships with different abilities that can buff each other, the pure Vulture swarm is fairly monochrome with what we know as of now. The ability to pass off Calculate tokens is nice, as are Grappling Struts, but doesn't seem to offer too much advantage over other swarms. I do expect that a more viable use of Vultures will be in mini-swarms of 3-5 backing up Bub-22s, Infiltrators, or whatever else comes out later.

Edited by Ikka

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12 minutes ago, Ikka said:

Unlike TIE swarms, which have multiple unique pilots with complimentary abilities, or Scum swarms, which have different ships with different abilities that can buff each other, the pure Vulture swarm is fairly monochrome with what we know as of now. The ability to pass off Calculate tokens is nice, as are Grappling Struts, but doesn't seem to offer too much advantage over other swarms. I do expect that a more viable use of Vultures will be in mini-swarms of 3-5 backing up Bub-22s, Infiltrators, or whatever else comes out later.

Yes, their abilities togeher with trechery makes for an effetive meat shield, but pure vulture swarm is weak, unless there are points for missiles.

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7 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

I'm sure we'll see Vulture swarms out and about, but I doubt they'll replace other swarm lists. They'll just be a different type of swarm that plays in its own unique way.

And honestly, I beginning to think Vultures won't be priced much (if at all) less than TIE Fighters. For what the Vultures lose in agility, maneuverability, and no Focus action, they make up for in sharing Calculate tokens, Grappling Struts, multiple "unique" pilots that all share the same pilot ability, and a missile slot for the Energy-Shell Charges.

Grappling Struts is gimmicky, but easy to counter and doesn't do all that much, especially if the droids don't have access to Trick Shot (though it may be too good if they do).  And if missile slots were enough to bloat the points to TIE/ln levels, Z-95s would be more expensive.  Now if you had all 7-8 *equipped* with the missiles, maybe, so it might be a decision about how many to give ordnance to...

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Well, if we're diving into the realm of Points Speculation...

In a vacuum, on a theoretical 2-attack ship with access to both Calculate and Focus, Energy-shell Charges is a superior option to Proton Rockets. So I'd expect Energy-shell Charges to cost 7 points (or somewhere in the 6-8 range).

I'm thinking Vultures will be about 20, maybe 21. Compared to the base swarmer, the TIE Fighter, they lose a green die but gain a modest ship ability. I am also of the opinion that you won't be able to field eight Vultures with Energy-shell charges, so that math fits as well. A price point of 20 means that you can fit seven of them into a list and have 60 left over for a lead ship + some upgrades.

I keep thinking "that's way too much" but then I remind myself that it will be almost impossible to not lose at least one before it shoots, so I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out on the table.

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I love(d) flying TIE swarm.  Problem though is you have to be on your best game with dials or those fragile ships pop like bubble wrap.  One or two matches on a Tuesday night, sure; but on a major tournament weekend, I dought it. 

 

M3-A, Zed’s and I’m sure the droid swarms will follow the same fate.  

 

All of this doesnt stop stop me from flying swarms though. 😉

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4 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Currently, no swarms are meta- much less a more-frail swarm in the form of Vultures.

The current meta is alnost entirely 3 ship, High-initiative Alpha Strike.

I think there have been some swarm lists that could be meta. People just don’t want to deal with that many dials at once all weekend, as @Ccwebb pointed out. I’ve never bothered as I’m mostly a Rebel player, but the Clone Wars are my jam and I’m definitely going to focus on Vultures when I try CIS.

The Infiltrator is bottom of my priority to get, but I definitely want to try Maul out, too, I admit.

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Calling it a 'new'meta swarm list implies there's an old one, which there really isn't.

As ever, it's basically impossible to know what lists will work, without points and slots.

****, you said the same thing but beat me by a second.

I'm writing an article on it now, but in a head-on joust, the only list that can outjoust something like Boba+Fenn is the named 6 ship TIE Swarm- And they are not particularly maneuverable due to howlrunner's Range 1 Restriction. If it was a 0-3 bubble, they could increase the positional flexibility of the list in terms of positioning, but it's not particularly likely, unless they give Relay slots to Empire or something. That or they could put Sloane and the Lambda in hyperspace so that she can singlehandedly prop up generics in the imperial faction. (God **** are generic strikers, reapers, and especially advanceds awful)

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18 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I think there have been some swarm lists that could be meta. People just don’t want to deal with that many dials at once all weekend, as @Ccwebb pointed out. I’ve never bothered as I’m mostly a Rebel player, but the Clone Wars are my jam and I’m definitely going to focus on Vultures when I try CIS.

The Infiltrator is bottom of my priority to get, but I definitely want to try Maul out, too, I admit.

I had a big detailed reply typed up, and then it got deleted and I don't want to really type it again.

In short, even when people do bring Swarms to events in 2.0, they do below average.

As an example, Boba Fett lists are over 8 times as likely to show up as a Swarm, and historically, has a conversion rate that's almost 2x the average. When Swarms do show up, they convert below-average.

So no, they don't show up often enough to be meta, nor are they powerful enough to force their way into cuts consistently when they do show up.

It's almost like there's this medium base boosting turret with passive double mods on defense and reinforce that's super meta right now.

Also, for some reason, the point increase from Bounty Hunter to Boba is less than Acad to Iden.

Edited by Kaptin Krunch

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11 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also, for some reason, the point increase from Bounty Hunter to Boba is less than Acad to Iden.

It's my assumption that Howl and Iden are each priced at 40 because seven academy pilots costs 161.

Which isn't to say that Boba Fett is correctly priced; he could stand to go up a few points. Just that Howl and Iden are on the receiving end of a ships-per-list tax, hence their relatively large price hike.

Personally I think that Boba is only a couple points off the mark, and the real problem is how crazy inexpensive gunner Han is for what he does, plus all the other Firesprays could stand to come down a bit.

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2 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Personally I think that Boba is only a couple points off the mark, and the real problem is how crazy inexpensive gunner Han is for what he does, plus all the other Firesprays could stand to come down a bit.

That seems to be a fairly widely accepted idea. I don’t think they should price him into oblivion, but given his success rates compared to others, I think they’ll err a touch heavy on his judgement if anything.

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2 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

@Kaptain Krunch nine more days... it’s all going to be alright.

Unfortunately, I don't have a high level of confidence in FFG's ability to correctly price generic ships- The amount of changes that would need to be made are massive.  A fair price would be where high-init ships can't consistently joust all-generic lists and win, right? You are looking at lists of Strikers that cost 32 for the i3, 29-31 for the i1, X-wing prices in the 38-40 range, generic silencers 6-10 points cheaper (The silencer is a TIE interceptor that pays full cost for 2 shield and a hull upgrade, and a worse action bar- Why would you ever take that) 

1 minute ago, Maui. said:

It's my assumption that Howl and Iden are each priced at 40 because seven academy pilots costs 161.

Which isn't to say that Boba Fett is correctly priced; he could stand to go up a few points. Just that Howl and Iden are on the receiving end of a ships-per-list tax, hence their relatively large price hike.

Personally I think that Boba is only a couple points off the mark, and the real problem is how crazy inexpensive gunner Han is for what he does, plus all the other Firesprays could stand to come down a bit.

 

2 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

That seems to be a fairly widely accepted idea. I don’t think they should price him into oblivion, but given his success rates compared to others, I think they’ll err a touch heavy on his judgement if anything.

unfortunately, no- Boba is more than "A few" points undercosted, and while Han+Maruader is a problem, the chassis+ability itself are going to be just as big of a problem with any other title. I suspect Slave 1 may actually be more powerful, at the cost of needing slightly more brain cells to work. 

For reference, of all firesprays ever used, Boba Fett is 94% of them. 

in a major event, only one firespray has ever made a cut that's not boba, and he did it in a list that had Boba as well- Boba has been in 100% of lists with a firespray post cut. 

Let's assume that maruader gunner disappears. You immeditely save 2 points on your Boba (straight to bid) and pick up Slave 1. This card, on a ship with a rear arc and boost, is similar in power level to Supernatural Reflexes. He can hedge every single move that he makes with a complete bail/disengage, and begin kiting. actually getting meaningful shots on him with a lower-I pilot becomes effectively impossible, even with cards like Informant in play. 

As I said earlier, he was "medium base boosting turret with passive double mods on defense  and offense and reinforce" 

If you swap out Maruader to slave 1, you get "A medium base boosting turret who sets his dial at initiative 5 with passive mods on defense and offense and reinforce" 

If boba's point increase is less than something in the 15+ range, Boba got Jumpmaster Nerf 1- Remember when they nerfed the jumpmaster 5 seperate times and none of the nerfs mattered? 

 

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For me the big difference with Vultures versus Ties is that Vultures can LOCK. So they can double mod (by passing calculates) or with Kraken is they have a calc left over from the previous round. So whilst they will explode more easily that anything else in the game almost, when they shoot they should dealing some damage (especially if one or two get bullseyes with Captain Crack (Sear) a round.

It looks like there will be 3+ swarm types (or multiple mini swarms in a list) made up from Vultures

3*DFS-081 (crit mit 0-1 for a calc)

3***Precise Hunter (bullseye reroll)

3 Separatist

1*DFS-311 ? Pass over a calculate 0-3 at beginning of engagement?

1**Hadr Chall Protoype (At 0-2 if bullseye get calc or lock if not shot at). Great blockers because is range 0

1 Trade Federation Droid

 

So far Kraken seems the best - two calcs if you carry from last round or a calc and a lock - TV-94 doesn't help at range 1 and doesn't seem as good due to bullseye requirement at range 3 compared to an energy shell

Captain Crack (Sear) seems great if you can hold onto your token and get other mods (or Kraken) - but primary only

 

So to continue my notes

 

Kraken Shell Swarm (range 2-3 only) - Best Far Distance / Closing [Second best]

Kraken (3 calc carried) - so double mod shot with crit

Hunters bullseye reroll (hard?)

Hadrs might get you a lock as well at range 0-2

If DFS-311 can hand you a calc then you could perhaps reload and fire again that round (as its not a proper reload action?)

 

Kraken Crack Swarm - Best Close (range 1) [probably the best of the swarms from the cards etc known to date]

Kraken (3 calc carried) to allow double mod (range 1 so primary) shots

Captain Sear (crackshot with bullseye and calc)

Hunters (easy to get bullseyes close) and Hadrs (Init 1 blockers - if ignored and bullseye trigger - then next turn flip over for modded shot)

 

Buzz Swarm - Best Medium??? Range 3 template 

??? Need more info

 

Hit TV Swarm - best medium range? 

Squad Primary TV-94 -  3 hits possible at ranges 2-3 spend calc

TV-94 (calc to add hit with 2 dice or less) SO NOT RANGE 1

Need rerolls and mods so Hunter and Hadr

Add Sear and DFS-311 to add hit and crack to one ship - decide bullseye at engagement might make this doable

 

So for me a mix of the Kraken swarm types (some Hadrs with energy shells) but a focus on range 1 fighting whist protecting Captain Crack and DFS-311 

 

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