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Herowannabe

Lt. Tavson breaks the game

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Not really, but he can create some really funky situations, especially when paired with Electronic Baffle. 

My friend was flying Tavson tonight and we realized this interaction:

relevant quotes:

Lieutenant Tavson: “After you suffer damage, you may spend 1 [charge] to perform an action.”

Electronic Baffle: “During the End Phase, you may suffer 1 [hit] damage to remove 1 red token.”

From the Rules Reference:

“END PHASE
The End Phase is the fifth phase of the round. During the End Phase, all circular tokens are removed from all ships. Then, each card with a recurring charge icon recovers one charge.”

also

”ABILITY QUEUE

...

2. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.”

 

So basically, once you reach the end phase you can clear all your tokens, THEN trigger electronic baffle to clear one of Tavson’s red tokens, take a damage, and trigger his ability and take and action in the end phase. All pretty straightforward, right?

But think about it. Because the action happens AFTER you’ve cleared your round tokens for the round, any round tokens generated by your action stick around until the end of the next round. This means you can do things like:

1. Focus at the end of the round, then focus again next round for double focus tokens (or 4x focus tokens if you have perceptive copilot equipped)

2. Double jam an enemy ship

3. Coordinate the same action (such as boost or barrel roll) to a friendly ship with higher initiative TWICE before their next activation. 

4. Reinforce BOTH your front and rear arcs. 

 

Discuss. 

Edited by Herowannabe
Formatting

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Baffle Tavson is already a known build. There have been several threads about this discussing how it works and which other ships might benefit the most.

However, Electronic Baffle isn't Hyperspace legal, so (according to the people up in arms about how Hyperspace is terrible and ruining their game) you'll never ever get to actually use it! /sarcastic mode.

Seriously, try it out and report back. Is it actually worth doing or just a fun gimmick?

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The game I played with Baffle Tavson it was... close to game breaking?  Is that fair?  Maybe not.  I completely crushed my opponent though.

Baffle QD utilises the same loophole to shoot at people after they picked up all their defensive tokens.  He's not fun either.

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33 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The game I played with Baffle Tavson it was... close to game breaking?  Is that fair?  Maybe not.  I completely crushed my opponent though.

Baffle QD utilises the same loophole to shoot at people after they picked up all their defensive tokens.  He's not fun either.

Would you have crushed them without the baffle?

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I'm pretty sure Baffle Tavson doesn't work.

(I mean, it works, but specifically not the green token exploit).

You remove tokens during the End Phase. It's not a single fire trigger, like after or when, it's a timing window. You don't choose whether Baffle or clearing tokens happens first (you wouldn't normally, anyways - game effects don't use the ability queue), both checks are happening continuously, because both say during. (No, once per opportunity doesn't apply, because it's a game effect and not an ability).

"During" is the one timing we don't actually have a definition for in the RRG, but, I mean... it seems pretty clear to me that it can be interpreted as "at any point during".

I'm also pretty sure it's not intended to work, which is a different question, so I wouldn't rely on it.

Baffle to coordinate barrel rolls all you like, though.

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25 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm pretty sure Baffle Tavson doesn't work.

(I mean, it works, but specifically not the green token exploit).

You remove tokens during the End Phase. It's not a single fire trigger, like after or when, it's a timing window. You don't choose whether Baffle or clearing tokens happens first (you wouldn't normally, anyways - game effects don't use the ability queue), both checks are happening continuously, because both say during. (No, once per opportunity doesn't apply, because it's a game effect and not an ability).

"During" is the one timing we don't actually have a definition for in the RRG, but, I mean... it seems pretty clear to me that it can be interpreted as "at any point during".

I'm also pretty sure it's not intended to work, which is a different question, so I wouldn't rely on it.

Baffle to coordinate barrel rolls all you like, though.

It needs to be clarified though. Most things being once-per-opportunity, it definitely reads as working how OP and others have described.

The queue argument doesn’t help, either, as game triggers must happen first.

There’s an argument for RAW/RAI, sure, but I would agree it works RAW.

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48 minutes ago, svelok said:

You remove tokens during the End Phase. It's not a single fire trigger, like after or when, it's a timing window. You don't choose whether Baffle or clearing tokens happens first (you wouldn't normally, anyways - game effects don't use the ability queue), both checks are happening continuously, because both say during. (No, once per opportunity doesn't apply, because it's a game effect and not an ability).

"During" is the one timing we don't actually have a definition for in the RRG, but, I mean... it seems pretty clear to me that it can be interpreted as "at any point during".

I'm also pretty sure it's not intended to work, which is a different question, so I wouldn't rely on it.

The wording of the end phase is 'during... remove tokens... then... recharge energy/force etc'.

If I'm doing something during 'during' but after that I'm doing something else then I can't be doing that first thing on an ongoing basis throughout 'during' it has to be something that I do and then stop doing in order to do the second thing that I do after the first thing.

And the timing rules are VERY clear that Electronic Baffle (a player ability) MUST be resolved after removing tokens and recharging energy (which are game effects).  And there's no second pass to then remove tokens again, because if there was a second pass to remove tokens then you'd have a second pass to recharge more energy/force as well as those two elements are linked in the rules for the end phase.

It'll all get cleared up to not work, I'm sure.  But as it stands it definitely works.

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4 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.”

In this case, you *cannot* choose the order of resolution.  That is because:

" If there are game effects that share a timing window with a player's effect, the game effect is resolved first."

Removing tokens is a *game effect*.  Baffle is a *player effect* and thus you *must* remove tokens *before* you baffle and tavson.

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

And the timing rules are VERY clear that Electronic Baffle (a player ability) MUST be resolved after removing tokens and recharging energy (which are game effects).  And there's no second pass to then remove tokens again, because if there was a second pass to remove tokens then you'd have a second pass to recharge more energy/force as well as those two elements are linked in the rules for the end phase.

I still don't think this jives with how the Autopilot Drone works.

1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

It needs to be clarified though. Most things being once-per-opportunity, it definitely reads as working how OP and others have described.

The queue argument doesn’t help, either, as game triggers must happen first.

There’s an argument for RAW/RAI, sure, but I would agree it works RAW.

As above, but also the once per opportunity rule doesn't apply here, as it's a game effect and not an ability.

(Conveniently, "then" is also not one of the timing words we have a definition for, because FFG don't want it to be that easy.)

 

I really don't think any reasonable definition of the word "during" allows the trick to work. You "then" regain charges, but by definition that step is still occuring "during the end phase", no?

Ion rules say "during" the preform action step, you can only preform the focus action. This was ruled to prevent linked actions, which I think supports the idea that during would span the entire end phase, too, unless there's an example of during meaning the opposite somewhere else?

Edited by svelok
I never learned how to read

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1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

In this case, you *cannot* choose the order of resolution.  That is because:

" If there are game effects that share a timing window with a player's effect, the game effect is resolved first."

Removing tokens is a *game effect*.  Baffle is a *player effect* and thus you *must* remove tokens *before* you baffle and tavson.

True, but all that means is that you can’t choose for the trick to not work. 

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

I still don't think this jives with how the Autopilot Drone works.

As above, but also the once per opportunity rule doesn't apply here, as it's a game effect and not an ability.

(Conveniently, "then" is also not one of the timing words we have a definition for, because FFG don't want it to be that easy.)

 

I really don't think any reasonable definition of the word "during" allows the trick to work. You "then" regain charges, but by definition that step is still occuring "during the end phase", no?

Ion rules say "during" the preform action step, you can only preform the focus action. This was ruled to prevent linked actions, which I think supports the idea that during would span the entire end phase, too, unless there's an example of during meaning the opposite somewhere else?

The difference is the ion effect is specifying a duration.

Though I do think using “during” for triggers always has been and always will be a mistake. There are much more precise words out there, FFG. Use “At the beginning of...” like everyone else.

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30 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

Though I do think using “during” for triggers always has been and always will be a mistake. There are much more precise words out there, FFG. Use “At the beginning of...” like everyone else.

 They do use “at the beginning“ and “at the end.” “During“ is for stuff they want to happen in the middle of those.

 I’m not saying it couldnt be improved, but.

Edited by SpiderMana

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Tavson was tough the first 2 times played him, but if you fly aces hes manageable once you learn how to play around him.

  • Fly around him
    • Plan in advanced to minimize arc exposures on the approach
    • He has no repo, and sucks at turning around, and is trivial to beat as a closer
  • Be prepared to not shoot him (even if hes your only shot) if the overall dmg trade isn't advantageous
    • Remember that each mod on 4 dies is ~1 dmg, 5die is ~1.25 dmg per mod
    • You land 2 damage, hes has 2 charges and no mods, he gains 2-2.5 extra damage
      • With 4-5 dice, extra hits rolled are basically extra hits landed
    • Damage on a 12hp ship is a only worth about 1/2 as much as dmg on your T70 or 1/3 as much on your glass ace
    • So shooting him with your ace in arc is pretty situational, esp if he's reinforced

 

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I'm failing to see the issue here.  He can float one green token in exchange for one damage.  He is still unable to do the same action twice in one turn, so any double coordinate "issues" are limited to every other turn.

Edited by HolySorcerer

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16 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I'm failing to see the issue here.  He can float one green token in exchange for one damage.  He is still unable to do the same action twice in one turn, so any double coordinate "issues" are limited to every other turn.

The thing is that during the end phase might as well be the next round. It's not technically doing the same action in one round, which is why it works, but it does offer him a lot of power.

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6 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

The thing is that during the end phase might as well be the next round. It's not technically doing the same action in one round, which is why it works, but it does offer him a lot of power.

it means you cannot already have reinforced that round, because you lose the token first before you can baffle.  Etc.

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10 hours ago, Gilarius said:

 

However, Electronic Baffle isn't Hyperspace legal, so (according to the people up in arms about how Hyperspace is terrible and ruining their game) you'll never ever get to actually use it! /sarcastic mode.

 

I mean, it was actually worth noting a difference here, since extended is so much tougher to balance, and this illustrates a reason why.  It's possible that a re-release later of baffle will have some clarification on it.   

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12 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

The thing is that during the end phase might as well be the next round

I'm not sure what this means. the End phase is not the next round. so you would technically be doing the same action in one round.  

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20 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

I'm not sure what this means. the End phase is not the next round. so you would technically be doing the same action in one round.  

 Sorry I’m not being clear. It isn’t the same, which is why it works.  But it offers you similar benefits to being able to do the same action twice in one round.

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Yeah the use I can see is, for example, baffling Tavson in the end phase, coordinating a focus to Quickdraw, end of turn. The focus token stays on quickdraw. Then, during next turn, coordinating a focus to quickdraw, with tavson. Note that quickdraw didn't do 2 of the same action in one turn, but still ends up with 2 focus, and her own action. That's pretty neat. There's a lot of stuff like that you can do.

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