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Doyouevenforgebro

Rules changes killing me

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9 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

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CaptainIxidor - Read above. Also I'm glad to have clarifications, especially early on. Full out base rules changes, the month they are supposed to be starting official tournaments after months of no communication is something else. In magics 25ish years of existence the only base rules changes have been removing Mana burn, adding the stack and taking damage off the stack. Each coming YEARS after the release. In fact which game has ever even changed a CORE rule. Not magic other than the 3 I mentioned, not pokemon, not hearthstone, not eternal, so I'm not even sure what your talkin about. I'm ok with cards changing or something, but again this is not the same thing.

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Kriswall - They DID cost me the money by changing a core rule - not clarifying it - changing it. The base rules should have been set. I keep reading games do this but I've been playing card games for 30+ years and have never come across a game that changes it core rules. Cards change and get banned from time to time but everyone is talking like base rules change the all the time which just isn't the case.

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I mean...  I haven't played Magic for years and I know more than that has changed.  Off the top of my head, decks went from 40 to 60 cards for a default game and the ante mechanic was eliminated completely.  Those are two core changes that you didn't list.  I'm sure there are others.

Plus, lots of games change core rules.  They will frequently make a bunch of changes at once and just list out as a new edition.  X-Wing just made a enough core rules changes to warrant a relaunch as X-Wing 2.0.  I won't bother to list out other games that have done the same.

Out of curiosity, which card games have you been playing for 30+ years?  I think the discussion would benefit from specifics.  I know Magic has been out for only 25 or so years, but we've established that it has gone through a number of core rule changes.  I can't think of any other card games that have run for that long.  Yu-Gi-Oh is only 16 years old.  Pokemon is 22 years old or so, but seems to be a fairly simply game aimed squarely at children.  I don't know anything about their rules.  There have obviously been hundreds of other games that haven't been popular enough or lasted long enough to really warrant a proper rules review.  I'm just curious as to what other examples you have...  since you have yet to provide AN example.

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5 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Ok for clarification, I opened the deck myself. Yes I was upset the rules they changed again did cause me to lose out on money that otherwise would have been a sure thing, because yet again they decided to change a core rule. But me losing out on the money was only the breaking point. My play group and myself have had issues with this game since day 1, with the lack of rulings on basically everything. Then they have no communication for like a month and finally put out a video that answered almost nothing. They release a couple more videos to help "clarify" issues in the community. Only to backtrack or straight up change the way a core rule works, they supposedly clarified. This has cause so many issues for my play group and other people I see at local stores. One person plays a card thinking they just read the ruling last week it has to work this way, only to be sadly mistaken

I suggest you get into designing a game like this and see how far you get without having rule changes, or even errata's. Im guessing, seeing MTG's massive errata's, this is near impossible. 
As KF is defining a new card game genre there are bound to be changes. Seeing the game is out for just 2 months  you seem to have applied a "collectible" sense onto it hoping to make some 'quick' money. Nothing wrong with that, but complaining about "lost" sales" is stretching it. If you have collected many rare cards in MTG and suddenly WOTC reprints that card would you be complaining also? 

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Someone tell me which card game has ever launched with this type of release. There hasn't been one, not sure why so many people say there are. 

I don't think there is ideal solution but the one thing you don't do is change your core rules.

IT IS FFG fault the game is in the state it's in, look around the internet I'm not the only one who feels this way. Wether you take me serious or not these are real issues with the game.

Theyve got themselves so twisted I truly believe they're making the rules up as they go. I never said there was a solution. I'm trying to bring all this up so they can fix/avoid I don't know do something different in the future.

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23 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

How did we let a complaint thread get to a second page? 😕

I think it's due to the extremely whiny and overly melodramatic tone of the complaint.  If he'd just said 'I am sad that a deck I was trying to sell will no longer sell', we'd have all said 'yeah, that sucks' and moved on with our lives.  It's much more fun to reply to comments bemoaning the fact that FFG is "making the rules up as they go" and that "FFG cost me over 400 dollars".  The complain is just so over the top and dramatic that it demands a response.

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4 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Someone tell me which card game has ever launched with this type of release. There hasn't been one, not sure why so many people say there are. 

I don't think there is ideal solution but the one thing you don't do is change your core rules.

MTG. During Beta and the first official set (Unlimited):

The minimum deck size was 40 not 60.

There was no 4 copy limit.

There were ante cards and you had to start every game by paying an ante of one card off the top of your library.

Some other changes were things like restricted cards. You could only have 1 copy. This restriction was added ad hoc through out the life cycle of the game. The same is true for banned cards.

There used to be a mechanic called mana burn. That has just been flat out removed.

Each and every one of these changes was a significantly bigger impact to the game and certain cards than anything that has changed (or been clarified) in Keyforge. And for the betterment of the game.

Under the original rules I had a number of decks that either had a 99% or 100% chance of a turn one win. The value of some cards plummeted when they made the changes. But I couldn't be happier. 1 turn wins with no ability to stop them and total lock down combos create situations where people stop playing the game. I had a handful of decks that if I were to put on the table no matter who I faced would just say 'nope' and not play.

The clarification to Restringuntus + Control the Weak is far less of an impact to either card (than almost all of the changes to MTG I mentioned) and only stops a situation where you can basically deny your opponent the chance to play at all. That was bad for the game and I am glad it was removed. Furthermore it changed Pitlord from being a potential autoloss to be a worthwile quality rare.

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Kriswall -Yes slight exaggeration not quite 30 about 26 I guess. Your also right I forgot about those two. But ok still 5 major rules changes in 26 years. FFG had done that in a months, and already changed rules they changed once already, which I'm pretty sure hasn't happened in any other card game.

Also I did provide examples you just decided they didn't matter I  guess. Eternal, hearthstone, pokemon. You know, the only other card games people actually play.

Also for the X Wing game.. are you really gonna count another FFG game in this conversation. I actually had to look it up. FFG is there only put company doing this. Also the fact the they RENAMED the game after all the rules changes should tell you something. How is that healthy.

Edwin - Again, changing cards and changing core rules aren't the same.

Also again, I did not get into keyforge trying to make money. It just so happens until they changed the rule I would have been able to. Losing the money was just the breaking point for me.

Wonder - Because whether you want to accept it or not these are real issues.

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17 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Wonder - Because whether you want to accept it or not these are real issues.

I accept that they are real issues, and I've been making the same complaints about FFG for years - here, and occasionally in person. The totality of my frustration has amounted to an understanding that FFG starts every game deaf, dumb, and blind to all of their own franchises as well as their competitors. FFG, as a brand, has come to rely on gimmicks, loyalty, and market saturation over quality R&D. How can we change these facts? We probably can't, but coming here to b**** about how you lost $400 is probably the least productive way to go about trying. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Which core rules have been changed, then changed again?  I may be forgetting some stuff, but other than cannot overruling must and cards being able to modify the one card only for the first turn rule, what are all these core rule changes you're talking about?

Genuinely asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.

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52 minutes ago, dperello said:

Which core rules have been changed, then changed again?  I may be forgetting some stuff, but other than cannot overruling must and cards being able to modify the one card only for the first turn rule, what are all these core rule changes you're talking about?

Genuinely asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Same here.  I think he's just complaining to complain.  It REALLY sounds like he'd be happier playing other games.

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1 hour ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Kriswall -Yes slight exaggeration not quite 30 about 26 I guess. Your also right I forgot about those two. But ok still 5 major rules changes in 26 years. FFG had done that in a months, and already changed rules they changed once already, which I'm pretty sure hasn't happened in any other card game.

Also I did provide examples you just decided they didn't matter I  guess. Eternal, hearthstone, pokemon. You know, the only other card games people actually play.

Also for the X Wing game.. are you really gonna count another FFG game in this conversation. I actually had to look it up. FFG is there only put company doing this. Also the fact the they RENAMED the game after all the rules changes should tell you something. How is that healthy.

Edwin - Again, changing cards and changing core rules aren't the same.

Also again, I did not get into keyforge trying to make money. It just so happens until they changed the rule I would have been able to. Losing the money was just the breaking point for me.

Wonder - Because whether you want to accept it or not these are real issues.

Let's call it more than 5 for MTG.  After a rudimentary Google search...

  1. Deck size went from 40 to 60.
  2. Ante mechanic eliminated, effectively banning a number of cards that referred to ante.
  3. Card shape physically changed between the initial and secondary release.  All alpha cards were effectively banned.  Card sleeves weren't really a thing.
  4. Mana burn mechanic eliminated.
  5. Card limits added...  typically 4 per deck, but could go as low as 1 for some cards.
  6. Interrupts eliminated and the stack added.
  7. Addition of a tap symbol and the end of monoartifacts
  8. the end of turning artifacts off by tapping them
  9. the end of combat tricks while the damage was at the stack
  10. Various tweeks about the turn structure and when and how often your mana pool burns drains. Some tweaks on how a spell is played, ownership of tokens changed also.
  11. The definition of supertypes and types, with it the rise on focus on creature types and permanent supertypes.
  12. End of interruption and mana source, some creature types were changed to "birds". tribal, planeswalker and equipments were added to the game.
  13. The legend rule went from the last one dies, to the first one dies, to each player can have a copy and can choose which copy dies.
  14. Bury became obsolete (its destroy and can't be regenerated).
  15. etc, etc...

In other words, there have been quite a few core rule changes that have nothing to do with specific cards.  I don't know all of them, but I can tell you as someone who played Magic during its initial Alpha release and for a number of years after that, the game today is only somewhat recognizable as the game it used to be.

I'm not sure how your familiarity with X-Wing has anything to do with the conversation.  I'd never heard of Eternal.  I had to look it up.  Does that disqualify it for consideration?  I'm assuming not.  For Hearthstone, there have definitely been some changes to the core rules, mostly around how damage and healing occurs.  Again, a 5 second Google search gives the below.

Long story short...  games release.  If they're not popular, people just work out how to deal with issues or stop playing.  If they're popular, the games get tons of feedback and usually have rules changes.

  • The Grand Tournament logo.png Patch 3.1.0.10357 (2015-09-29): AoE damage that hits all minions now ignores mortally wounded minions, becoming inconsistent with AoE damage that hits all characters hitting mortally wounded minions.
  • The Grand Tournament logo.png Patch 3.0.0.9786 (2015-08-18): AoE damage that hits all characters now hits mortally wounded minions, consistent with AoE damage that hits all minions.
  • Goblins vs Gnomes logo.png Patch 2.0.0.7234 (2014-12-04): Area of effect healing effects now affect all targets simultaneously, rather than one at a time. Related triggers will still activate one at a time.[483]
  • Patch 1.0.0.4944 (2014-03-11): Secrets can now only activate on your opponent's turn.
  • Unknown alpha patch: Turn time reduced from 90 to 75 seconds.[484]

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Ok just for Kriswall, but in a good way though.

The only actual mechanic changes your pointing out to me, that haven't already been talked about are the card limits being added to the game, tapping artifacts to turn them off, and the legends rule change. Everything else isn't a rule of the game. EX. Interrupts just got added in with instants, the functionality stayed the same. Adding the tap symbol didn't change any functionally, im not even sure you you mean by ending monocolor artifacts. Bury is just another word they used to use, again nothing functional changed.

I brought up X Wing because you thought bringing up another game run by FFG, where they do the same thing, only it was so bad they had to rename the whole game, would be relevant. Also I was in no way discounting it, I was pointing out the only other game you said was also run by FFG. And also only 5 changes in hearthstones 10+ year existence. Again YEARS after the initial release.

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8 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

The only actual mechanic changes your pointing out to me, that haven't already been talked about are....

Ante was a CORE mechanic of the original game and could be easily ported over to the crybaby whining you are doing now.

"The newest change removing ante, you cost me over 400 dollars with that change. I had a deck that would consistently win and now I can't play for ante. You took money out of my pocket. I would like a response to this from wotc so I know you are at least aware your screwing over your customers major. BOO-******-HOO"

 

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So what happens if Keyforge never changes another core rule and it lasts 20 years? Then it will have had fewer rules changes in the first 20 years of its lifespan than magic.

When and how frequently rules are changed in a game is way less important than why they are changed and if the end result is a better game.

 

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Ok back in.

Rhom - read through previous reaponses, if you have something to add after we'll talk.

Ishi - Thanks for a real post this time. If what you say about the next 20 years by some miracle happens to come true then you got me. My point is though at the pace they are changing and rewording things, the game will be drastically different in even a years time.

Also I can't be the only one seeing constant confusion at game stores. How is that healthy.

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3 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Ok back in.

Rhom - read through previous reaponses, if you have something to add after we'll talk.

Ishi - Thanks for a real post this time. If what you say about the next 20 years by some miracle happens to come true then you got me. My point is though at the pace they are changing and rewording things, the game will be drastically different in even a years time.

Also I can't be the only one seeing constant confusion at game stores. How is that healthy.

If you press the little + symbol in the bottom left corner of somebody's post it will add it to your multi-quote queue. Then you can click the multi-quote box that pops up on the bottom right and it will generate quote boxes for each separate poster in one single post, so you can address all of them without having to keep typing out their names.

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4 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Ok I'm gonna stop posting now. FFG has definitely seen this by now. So I guess thanks for the help everyone? Look around and talk to people at stores, I'm not the only one talking about these issues. 

No you definitely aren't. I'm just wondering what you want exactly. People were talking about rules issues before the changes, and from my perspective, the changes help to fill in a lot of the gaps and get us much closer to what those people who had issues might have wanted. If they don't try to fix it, it will stay broke? More heads up might have been nice I guess - but then too much information can be bad as well. If they talked about the rules changes coming, it makes the game feel even MORE unstable between those rule updates. Saying something like "well, we'll probably errata biomatrix backup" would just cause more confusion, and make it worse if they change their mind. Delaying the next season to give more time for the new rules to sink in doesn't really change much - you would still be annoyed about your deck's value changing.

You do have valid concerns. I'm just not seeing a way to both fix issues and not introduce changes that some players won't be happy with. It's the way of the world.

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1 hour ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

hearthstones 10+ year existence.

What.

The secret change happened pretty much right after the game left beta, too, other would have made the game a lot better implemented earlier. Hearthstone was a mess and still is. KeyForge is created perfectly compared to Hearthstone, believe me, I've been there since before the beta cardwipe.

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2 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Ishi - Thanks for a real post this time. If what you say about the next 20 years by some miracle happens to come true then you got me. My point is though at the pace they are changing and rewording things, the game will be drastically different in even a years time.

Also I can't be the only one seeing constant confusion at game stores. How is that healthy.

Both of my posts were real.  You just didn't like what I had to say in my first one.  In all honesty, it was a bit snarky, but, I feel warranted considering the tone of your OP.

Any confusion at game stores is easily remedied.  At least it has been at the 5 local shops that I frequent.  Most of these were things that people were wanting clarification on and were already hotly debated topics of "intent vs written rules"

Nothing has changed so drastically that the game is fundamentally different.

Of course this change in tact isn't what your post was about.  You were originally pissed because of your "monetary loss."  I'm not going to get into perceived loss vs actual loss, because others have already done that with you.  How you choose to look at it (how you handle your emotions over this) is up to you.  You chose to be pessimistic.  That's fair, you thought you had a substantially larger amount of cash coming your way.  On the more positive side, you now have an extra deck to play with, should you choose not to, or are unable to, sell it.

That's why we pursue these hobbies, right?  To play a game, and have fun.  So if it takes Brad coming out and saying "Sorry folks we rushed this a bit and are reworking the entire rulebook from the ground up" who cares as long as the result is a more enjoyable gaming experience.  If it's the return value on your $10 investment that you are looking for, then you weren't really here for the enjoyment of the game to begin with.  In which case, I'd say it was a poor decision to make an investment into a commodity that has the capacity to fluctuate in value so drastically.

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On 1/17/2019 at 9:05 AM, Doyouevenforgebro said:

I understand from time to time a rule may need to be changed, but the sheer amount of changes you guys have made in keyforges short lifetime points clearly to you weren't ready to release this game.

Which core rules have been changed, then changed again?  I may be forgetting some stuff, but other than cannot overruling must and cards being able to modify the one card only for the first turn rule, what are all these core rule changes you're talking about?

Genuinely asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.

(Is there an echo in here? 😛)

Edited by dperello

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9 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Both of my posts were real.  You just didn't like what I had to say in my first one.  In all honesty, it was a bit snarky, but, I feel warranted considering the tone of your OP.

Any confusion at game stores is easily remedied.  At least it has been at the 5 local shops that I frequent.  Most of these were things that people were wanting clarification on and were already hotly debated topics of "intent vs written rules"

Nothing has changed so drastically that the game is fundamentally different.

Of course this change in tact isn't what your post was about.  You were originally pissed because of your "monetary loss."  I'm not going to get into perceived loss vs actual loss, because others have already done that with you.  How you choose to look at it (how you handle your emotions over this) is up to you.  You chose to be pessimistic.  That's fair, you thought you had a substantially larger amount of cash coming your way.  On the more positive side, you now have an extra deck to play with, should you choose not to, or are unable to, sell it.

That's why we pursue these hobbies, right?  To play a game, and have fun.  So if it takes Brad coming out and saying "Sorry folks we rushed this a bit and are reworking the entire rulebook from the ground up" who cares as long as the result is a more enjoyable gaming experience.  If it's the return value on your $10 investment that you are looking for, then you weren't really here for the enjoyment of the game to begin with.  In which case, I'd say it was a poor decision to make an investment into a commodity that has the capacity to fluctuate in value so drastically.

Ok well I'm not good at quoting people here I guess, not sure how this got the the top. 

Anyway, I can totally agree you were justified with the tone of your original post. I honestly never thought it would turn out to get this much attention. I do regret the words and tone I chose to use in my original post. I posted it after literally minutes of waking up to this news, which I also regret and wish I would waited until I wasn't angry about it anymore.

That being said I still stand by the original message, and again the loss, which I know you and others don't think is real, even though it had a bid on eBay that was retracted before I woke up, was the breaking point. Everyone is saying can people paying a lot of money for decks are taking risks. Ok I can accept that. How are you ok with being a risk. It shouldn't be. You should be able to be confident if what you are buying. What about just the average player worrying about if there deck is going to change soon, not be able to use them or the decks not work the way they did when they got them and spent time trying to learn the deck. You can write it off as me complaining but it's not good for the game 

Now this is where I'm kinda shocked by what read.. You are really ok and would stick with the game if they reworked the whole rulebook from the ground up, which I kind of suggested was happening when I said it feels like they are making it up as they go, only to get much hate, but people are ok with you saying it for some reason. 

 

11 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

No you definitely aren't. 

Yes I was, until I started get hate mail from this bitchslapper character. Apparently someone in here is a bit sensitive. 

11 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

People were talking about rules issues before the changes, and from my perspective, the changes help to fill in a lot of the gaps and get us much closer to what those people who had issues might have wanted. If they don't try to fix it, it will stay broke? More heads up might have been nice I guess.

One of my main issues is the sheer amount of thing that are broke. How do the developers not know the rules to there own game?

11 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

You do have valid concerns. I'm just not seeing a way to both fix issues and not introduce changes that some players won't be happy with. It's the way of the world.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure it can be fixed. Way too much got through the "playtesting".

11 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

What.

The secret change happened pretty much right after the game left beta, too, other would have made the game a lot better implemented earlier. Hearthstone was a mess and still is. KeyForge is created perfectly compared to Hearthstone, believe me, I've been there since before the beta cardwipe.

That was my bad. I was in alpha, it feels that long to me I guess. So they had 1 major rule change with the first 2 years. I'm ok with that number, since they weren't having to clarify every other interaction in the game.

As you read I have also played hearthstone since before the beta wipe. Saying keyforge is created perfectly compared to hearthstone is, in the nicest way possible, nonsense. I like keyforge more, but keyforge has had way more issues than hearthstone ever had.

 

 

Edited by Doyouevenforgebro

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55 minutes ago, dperello said:

Which core rules have been changed, then changed again?  I may be forgetting some stuff, but other than cannot overruling must and cards being able to modify the one card only for the first turn rule, what are all these core rule changes you're talking about?

Genuinely asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.

(Is there an echo in here? 😛)

I don't see a lot of core rule changes as much as I see clarifications that make the game more intuitive. We all know what Biomatrix Backup was intended to do; now it does that, and not some weird thing where "you" doesn't mean "you", but "active player" instead. We now have clarification on when resolving multiple effects stops in the middle and when it keeps going (it keeps going as long as the card being affected remains in a visible place and stops as soon as it goes somewhere hidden like hand, deck, or archives). We also have a clarification of "Do as much as you can" in that you can fire a blank effect (such as using an artifact with no Action: or Omni: abilities). True, this hasn't been officially clarified as to whether the upgrade rule is written correctly (meaning you can play an upgrade with no creature to attach it to just for the Æmber bonus) or if the previous "clarification" still holds saying that such an upgrade can't be played at all, but it's a start. 

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1 hour ago, dperello said:

Which core rules have been changed, then changed again?  I may be forgetting some stuff, but other than cannot overruling must and cards being able to modify the one card only for the first turn rule, what are all these core rule changes you're talking about?

Genuinely asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.

(Is there an echo in here? 😛)

I know it still deals with the turn one rule but.. In the original rule book there was nothing stopping you from modifying the first turn, so by the GOLDEN RULE you could modify turn 1. Why have a golden rule if it's not actually true. Since they have changed it twice.

In the original rulebook you could stun creatures that are already stunned. In rulebook 2 you cant. Now you can target them again.

Are Brad's rulings official or no? If not why is it ok to spread speculative information?

 

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8 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

I know it still deals with the turn one rule but.. In the original rule book there was nothing stopping you from modifying the first turn, so by the GOLDEN RULE you could modify turn 1. Why have a golden rule if it's not actually true. Since they have changed it twice.

In the original rulebook you could stun creatures that are already stunned. In rulebook 2 you cant. Now you can target them again.

Are Brad's rulings official or no? If not why is it ok to spread speculative information?

 

I see these as trying to forge a key principle but realizing that the rules work needed to enforce it made the game worse as a result. The Turn 1 Rule was meant to be absolute, but it wasn't stated as such. The first attempt to clarify posted that intent for absolutism in that rule. But when it came time to actually craft a rule that would allow the first turn rule to be absolute, it created more headaches than it was worth. OOPS! Better to fix that now than later.

In a similar vein, there was an attempt to say that an effect can't fire blanks. This was the reasoning behind not being able to stun already stunned creatures, not being able to play upgrades that can't attach, and so on. But given the functionally identical wording of Nexus's Reap ability and the first part of Poltergeist, why did one get to fire at an artifact with only constant abilities and the other one didn't in the case where there was a choice that could do something, albeit detrimental? Because, according to the old logic, Poltergeist did something even if the first part of it didn't do anything, whereas Nexus does nothing and therefore wasn't seen as a real choice. When the same wording produces different results, there's a problem with the logic. Again, better to fix that now than later. Let Nexus wave around a meaningless Banner of Battle after he reaps, instead of trying to craft a "Your abilities must change the game state or you can't use them" rule that would force him to shoot a Cannon at his allies and only spark more confusion as we try to define what "changing the game state" means.

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