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Doyouevenforgebro

Rules changes killing me

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I understand from time to time a rule may need to be changed, but the sheer amount of changes you guys have made in keyforges short lifetime points clearly to you weren't ready to release this game. The newest change about the "can't" and "must" interaction, you cost me over 400 dollars with that change. I had a deck with the lockout combo auctioning on eBay, now the bid has been cancelled and I can't Imagine anyone else paying that much now, and what about anyone who has already paid that much for that type of deck and no it doesn't even work. I would like a response to this from ffg so I know you are at least aware your screwing over your customers major.

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Yeah you won’t find much sympathy (or any actual FFG answers) here on the forums.

I don’t blame anyone for trying to make a quick buck, the problem is not with you the problem is that there are people spending that much money on decks.

Overall decisions like this are helpful for the game long term. I’ll take something that benefits the play of game over someone’s side hustling any day.

Sorry your get rich quick scheme got punctured, I’m sure there’s another one out there. Cheers.

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I'm not asking for sympathy. To be fair I can see how you could interpret it that way, if you only read half of the post, and ignored the very first sentence. However ill indulge you since that is the part you guys seems to be stuck on. I only put the deck up for sale after I saw multiple people in different keyforge groups say they are willing to pay that much because they are looking for decks that had the certain combo and it is pretty rare. 

And Poposhka really... "besides selling cardboard for 40 times the retail cost." Move on with that, it happens in every card game ever.

Anyways, How am I supposed to trust the next deck I like wont get changed and be worthless again? How are we entering the Second Age but yet the main rules are even set? How are they going to run all these giant worldwide tournaments when they themselves can't decide what is right on some of these rulings?

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1 hour ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Anyways, How am I supposed to trust the next deck I like wont get changed and be worthless again? How are we entering the Second Age but yet the main rules are even set? How are they going to run all these giant worldwide tournaments when they themselves can't decide what is right on some of these rulings?

I’m not judging and for good reason, I’ve bought decks from eBay myself. However, the above portion of your post seems niave at best. Based on how you talk it sounds like KeyForge isn’t your first rodeo and you should know better. 

Since the advent of a secondary market for card games they have been nothing if not speculative. How do you think people that bought a play set of Jace the Mind Sculptor for $360 one week only to have it banned the next felt? About the same as you I’d imagine. I packed 3 and bought 1 for $40 and still felt bad.

If you are going to speculate in the secondary market you need to accept the risks and move on or get out.

 

Edited by Starbane

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2 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

I understand from time to time a rule may need to be changed, but the sheer amount of changes you guys have made in keyforges short lifetime points clearly to you weren't ready to release this game. The newest change about the "can't" and "must" interaction, you cost me over 400 dollars with that change. I had a deck with the lockout combo auctioning on eBay, now the bid has been cancelled and I can't Imagine anyone else paying that much now, and what about anyone who has already paid that much for that type of deck and no it doesn't even work. I would like a response to this from ffg so I know you are at least aware your screwing over your customers major.

To be clear, FFG didn't cost you anything.  They sold you a deck, likely through an intermediary game store.  That's the end of the interaction.  FFG has no involvement in the secondary market, which can swing pretty wildly every time an FAQ, errata or new set is released. 

It sounds like you're more upset that the rules clarification caused a "meta shift" and that the generally ephemeral "net lister" community is no longer interested in your deck.  The timing definitely sucks, but it's not like FFG came to your house and stole $400 out of your wallet.  It's not money you ever had.

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Deck is far from worthless too.  If the only thing it had going for it was the potential lock, maybe, but I imagine folks wouldn't have been thinking of paying that much for a one-trick pony. Sure, it's not AS good anymore, but it's not worthless.

And something I've mentioned multiple times: we don't know what format major events will be yet. It seems unlikely that it will be anything as bland as 'bring your best deck and compete', so anyone dropping hundreds of dollars on decks right now is making a risky investment.

 

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@OP

The health of the game trumps your imagined loss in the secondary market. If you bought a deck for more than retail you should be aware and take ownership of the risk you are voluntarily taking.

Each and every deck is worth $10. Just because you were able to sell it for more does not make actually worth more. And just because an individual pays more than $10 does not actually make it worth more than $10. The subjective value people place on decks is in no way FFG's responsibility. 

Please understand, I am not saying you are in the wrong for selling a deck for more than $10. You should be able to get whatever the market will bare. But you also cannot be upset when a change that improves the health of the game (even if you do not agree that it is a healthy change) changes what people are willing to play. This applies to errata, banning, retirement, chains, ect.

This game has a system of retirement as well. Great decks will be retired by FFG. If one is paying large sums for a great deck they should be prepared, that deck will most likely be retired at some point if it is dominating OP events.

This is one of the main reasons I have a ceiling on how much I will pay no matter how good the deck is.

But back to the OP, FFG did not cost you $400. If you paid that much for the deck that's on you and shows either a lack of understanding or a lack of critical thinking. Learn for it and move on. If you paid $10 (you opened the deck yourself), likewise FFG still cost you nothing. You have the deck and if it is actually good outside of one slightly weakened combo, you probably will still be able to sell it at cost or for a profit.

 

On top of all of this, Control the Weak + Restringuntus is in no way bad now. It just doesn't shut the opponent down. It still provides a great deal of control and fits the overall balance of the game very nicely.

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1 hour ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Wow good point Poposhka I would have never known that... However they are responsible for the Happiness/Anger there decisions cause, which was my point. But thanks for your non-help input also.

So you're not in control of your emotions either?

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1 hour ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

move on ... it happens in every card game ever.

 

heh. you're acting like some sort of fundamental right of yours has been taken away. you know full well, yeah, that's exactly what happens in every card game ever. people who know how these games work also know that the value of cardboard will change if the owner of the game changes the mechanics. there's no obligation to keep secondary market profiteers and scalpers happy, their obligation not really even to keep the game healthy, their obligation is to keep the game selling from their shelves.

take your own advice and move on, it happens in every card game ever.

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32 minutes ago, Poposhka said:

people who know how these games work also know that the value of cardboard will change if the owner of the game changes the mechanics.

For that matter, the value of cardboard can change for no apparent reason sometimes, or for an arbitrary reason that is perceived as a benefit or detriment to the deck/cards/card in question. 

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5 hours ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

I understand from time to time a rule may need to be changed, but the sheer amount of changes you guys have made in keyforges short lifetime points clearly to you weren't ready to release this game. The newest change about the "can't" and "must" interaction, you cost me over 400 dollars with that change. I had a deck with the lockout combo auctioning on eBay, now the bid has been cancelled and I can't Imagine anyone else paying that much now, and what about anyone who has already paid that much for that type of deck and no it doesn't even work. I would like a response to this from ffg so I know you are at least aware your screwing over your customers major. 

I would argue that the sheer amount of changes they've made so far points to their dedication in seeing the game succeed, rather than letting bad points in the game sit around to fester, or for the secondary market to be even more upset later on as changes trickle down. It also sets a good precedent for those buying off the market to consider keyforge as a game first and an investment second, which is the right viewpoint for a game that is THREE MONTHS OLD.

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 O boy ok, here we go.

Palpster - Yes, ironic. The sheer amount of rules changes isna disaster, they aren't even sticking to rulings they made around a month ago.

CaptainIxidor - Read above. Also I'm glad to have clarifications, especially early on. Full out base rules changes, the month they are supposed to be starting official tournaments after months of no communication is something else. In magics 25ish years of existence the only base rules changes have been removing Mana burn, adding the stack and taking damage off the stack. Each coming YEARS after the release. In fact which game has ever even changed a CORE rule. Not magic other than the 3 I mentioned, not pokemon, not hearthstone, not eternal, so I'm not even sure what your talkin about. I'm ok with cards changing or something, but again this is not the same thing.

Starbane - I actually appreciated your post, thanks. However, other than selling a couple Karns I opened in Dominaria, this was my first time trying to sell anything. 

Also yes the people who bought jaces only to have them banned were furious, as they should have been, and it definitely hurt the game as a whole for a long time. Other cards games needed to learn from that.

Kriswall - They DID cost me the money by changing a core rule - not clarifying it - changing it. The base rules should have been set. I keep reading games do this but I've been playing card games for 30+ years and have never come across a game that changes it core rules. Cards change and get banned from time to time but everyone is talking like base rules change the all the time which just isn't the case.

Krashwire - I appreciate your post up until you kinda called me dumb(very critical thinker,) but other than that you put real thought into your post. Kinda like my last response though, it was a very real loss and they did cause it. If what people are willing to pay doesn't dictate the worth of something what does? 

EX. You play the lottery and get 5 of 6 for some thousands of dollars. However the day you go to collect they change the rules to say you have to have 6 of 6 to win anything. Is that also just an imaginary loss? You were told you were going to get it from an official source, even though you didn't actually have the money.

Hinomura - I appreciated your post also. However, you highlighted one of my issues, which is the lack of any type of communication other than a couple videos here and there which they "clarified" some rules. Some of which have been changed already, again.

Ishi - Your post and this response are a waste of time, I thought it was pretty obvious I was upset.

Wonder - Yep I was angry, but posted it exactly where I needed to make sure FFG saw it.

Poposhka, again - like some of my other responses, what other card games are out here changing there core rules weekly? Honestly im not sure how so many of you are ok with it.

Chadmart - I don't really have anything for you as that kinda just seemed random to me.

Hinomura, again - That was kinda funny.

Saluk - Well we would be arguing for awhile. Do they do any testing before they sent out a "finished product."

I would also argue your second point is completely wrong. If the time to invest in something isn't when it's new and cheap then when? When it's common and expensive? Seems wrong to me.

 

 

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Sure I will bite, they also stole 10$ from me since I bought a deck that was worthless on the secondary market. And not only they did this once, they have done it repeatedly! And I am not the only one!!! I have heard there area thousands of people that have had 10$ stolen when they opened a deck. Oddly enough most of these seem to be decks containing Mars.

 

/end sarcasm

 

Stock market drives a lot of anxiety and emotional response for you? Secondary markets are just as speculative as the stock market. And based on how your comments sound all that needs to happen is wait for the next rules change for everything to be reversed again...

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4 minutes ago, Doyouevenforgebro said:

Saluk - Well we would be arguing for awhile. Do they do any testing before they sent out a "finished product."

The latest incarnation of the rulebook lists 81 people specifically credited as Playtesters. Add the designer and developers and that gets closer to 100. The interactions of 100 people playing with (probably close to) 1,000 decks pales in comparison to the real-world discovery of probably 10,000 people registering over half a million decks. It's not surprising that some things got missed.

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@Doyouevenforgebro

Insult was not my intention. I will try to be more careful with my wording. 

As to the lottery example, that is an interesting scenario. However, I feel it is not equivalent. If the secondary market profits people make were provided by FFG (as the prize money in a lottery is provided by the Lottery) then we would have equivalency. In your example that would be theft by the Lottery.

As to worth, you make a fair point. Let me refine what I was trying to say. Worth is subjective. It is also volatile. I am also reasonably sure secondary markets were not a concern or priority in the design or rules refinement processes. And nor should they be, thus worth beyond the $10 FFG sold the product for is not of their concern. I feel like health of the game itself (not the secondary market) is paramount. I think once we see the high level play you going to even more volatility than a rules change makes. There are several people who are going to be successful in high level play (people like Hinomura) who are also active on the forums. These people will give their opinions on what is good or bad and large numbers of the player base are going to take that as gospel. That I expect to drive more volatility than rules updates. 

Does the proposition of volatility being driven by players (and potentially causing the same situation you find yourself in now) upset or bother you? Who would you hold accountable for such a state? I am honestly curious. How about anyone else reading the thread?

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Ok for clarification, I opened the deck myself. Yes I was upset the rules they changed again did cause me to lose out on money that otherwise would have been a sure thing, because yet again they decided to change a core rule. But me losing out on the money was only the breaking point. My play group and myself have had issues with this game since day 1, with the lack of rulings on basically everything. Then they have no communication for like a month and finally put out a video that answered almost nothing. They release a couple more videos to help "clarify" issues in the community. Only to backtrack or straight up change the way a core rule works, they supposedly clarified. This has cause so many issues for my play group and other people I see at local stores. One person plays a card thinking they just read the ruling last week it has to work this way, only to be sadly mistaken. People arguing they have read the rule works one way and the other person swears they just read it works a different way. I have bought 4 boxes of decks, one of my friends has bought 7 boxes and multiple others have bought 2 or 3 boxes, and were all seriously considering not playing anymore. Yes, I know if me and my play group and friends were to all quit playing it would be almost nothing in the grand scheme of things, the thing is I know were not the only people who feel this way.

So like I've read a surprising amount of times, are all theses constant rules changes "healthy" for the game. Because from what I see in the real world tells me different.

Ok moving on.

I feel like some people here are making some of my points for me...

Lokekar - I'm not sure how this applies, I didn't buy the decks with the intent to resell them. I bought them because I enjoy the game and am addicted to seeing what the next name on the deck is going to be, and I guess trying to find one I thought was actually good. I just so happened to keep seeing people posting they were looking for decks that had what one of mine had in it, and were offering an absurd amount of money. Also, "And based on how your comments sound all that needs to happen is wait for the next rules change for everything to be reversed again..."  made me chuckle.

Rabbitball - So the consumers have to be punished because the company either didn't do the job well enough, or didn't have enough people to do the job correctly, or probably both? I'm not sure any other company in the world gets away with that. To be fair, yes I can see a few little things getting through, but base rules need to be known and how they interact with each other. How about changing rulings you made after the initial release. To me that's points to they're making it up as they go, which probably isn't the best idea.

Krashwire - No worries. I know the lottery example isn't the exact same, but I'm not sure it's that far off. I was told when I bought the decks these are the rules. The rules randomly changed and I suddenly lost a lot of value. Basically if any other company would say "these are the core rules to this game" those are going to be the core rules to the game forever, because they have done the work required to make sure the product they are putting out actually works like intended. I'm not sure why so many people are giving FFG a pass.

I know FFG doesn't care about secondary markets, and to be fair I could have done a better job in the original post to try and convey that. But what they need to care about it not setting up situations where keyforge players are actively arguing with each other because they cant agree on the rules. Whether it be from lack of rulings, or clarification, or backtracking on a rule they already changed, or changing a new core rule. Jeez, just the fact I can type that sentence out and it be legit seems bad. 

The prospect of the volatility being driven by the players does bother me, as I'm sure people here wont believe, and to be fair my original post was an angry post. But im almost always happy, and want to see others around me happy. That being said, I won't be really angry about it or anything, because sadly I expect that from the general population, (and I would blame the players who can't think for themselves in that situation.) I don't expect that volatility to come from FFG. Also, Im not sure Im fully understanding what your trying to say. Are you saying the volatility will come from the general population who doesn't agree with someone popular? And im not sure, how would I find myself in the situation I am in now?

 

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I think you are mostly complaining, possibly fueled by financial based emotions - which are understandable. But if not, which is your ideal resolution:

1) fix only clarification with no functional change

2) take longer to change this many things, letting season 1 start in the state we were prior to the latest update

I can see a case for #1 in that we had nearly reached a kind of consensus. Fix the rules in set 2. I think it would have hurt to stay there, especially long term as play styles solidify more.

#2 is a pipe dream. There are changes in this update that half the community think are functional, while the other half already played that way.

Maybe you have a better solution? You can't argue for launching the game without the issues it launched with. Obviously ideal but ancient history (and also a pipe dream).

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