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Rules updated Jan 17

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39 minutes ago, saluk64007 said:

Bed penny is still destroyed against loot the bodies. Loot cares that she was destroyed, but doesn't care where she ends up. This was previously covered by the glossary for "ability", where out of play cant be targeted unless referenced.

The updated rules have it more clear, under leaves play:

"When a card moves from an in–play zone to an out-of-play zone in which  
the identities of cards are hidden from the opponent (such as a player’s  
hand, deck, or archives), any pending effects that are currently or about  
to interact with that card no longer do so, unless a card effect explicitly  
states that it interacts with that zone."

 

Bad Penny's ability now happens before she is destroyed, so she is never destroyed. Neither of the sections that you referenced seem to change this.

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10 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Is "Before Destroyed" a new rules function that needs to be addressed now?

 

"Destroyed" is "Before Destroyed". What we need is new rules for "After Destroyed".  :D

Edited by Revert

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1 hour ago, saluk64007 said:

For dust imp + cloak, if you resolve imp first, 2 aember is gained. Then the cloaks stops imp from being destroyed and leaving. If you resolve cloak first, imp heals and its destroyed trigger cannot resolve because its not destroyed. (Loot the bodies doesnt get you aember here either). So yes, active player matters.

Armageddon cloak is unique with "instead". Here is the email from Brad, which is an old ruling, but not contradicted yet:

"It works just like you think it would. Both are destroyed effects and they are both firing off so your opponent choses the order to resolve them. If your opponent chooses to resolve the Armageddon Cloak first, then Truebaru is no longer being destroyed and the second Destroyed effect cannot be triggered."

 

If this is true, then if dust imp has biomatrix backup,  you can bypass dust imp's ability by having biomatrix backup resolve first? Maybe this is just an issue with Armageddon cloak being weird, and its wording not being fully compatible with the current rules. It is an effect whose execution would prevent its own effect from triggering. 

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1 hour ago, Revert said:

 

Bad Penny's ability now happens before she is destroyed, so she is never destroyed. Neither of the sections that you referenced seem to change this. 

Bad Penny's ability happens before she is destroyed and makes her go to your hand rather than being discarded. It doesn't say that bad penny is not considered to have been destroyed. The discard is a part of the destruction process, but destroyed is not synonymous with discarded.

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2 minutes ago, saluk64007 said:

Bad Penny's ability happens before she is destroyed and makes her go to your hand rather than being discarded. It doesn't say that bad penny is not considered to have been destroyed. The discard is a part of the destruction process, but destroyed is not synonymous with discarded.

This is just a simple replacement effect. 

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2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

This is just a simple replacement effect. 

It overrides the part of the destruction rules that say "when a card is destroyed, it is placed in it's owner's discard pile". It doesn't cancel other triggers based on destroyed from happening. Look at the faq for the bad penny/bolter interaction again. Bolter still tries to purge her, he's just not able to because he can't see her.

The cloak is a replacement effect, because it says the cloak is destroyed instead of the creature. If there were triggers on upgrades being destroyed, those would activate when the cloak does, even as other creature-based destruction effects may not.

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I wasn't disagreeing with you. A replacement effect takes the place of another effect, usually part of the core rules. In this case Penny would normally go to the discard pile, but that framework effect is instead replaced by her trigger text. "If this creature would be destroyed, place it in its owner's hand instead of the discard pile." 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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1 hour ago, Revert said:

 

If this is true, then if dust imp has biomatrix backup,  you can bypass dust imp's ability by having biomatrix backup resolve first? Maybe this is just an issue with Armageddon cloak being weird, and its wording not being fully compatible with the current rules. It is an effect whose execution would prevent its own effect from triggering. 

4 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

Well I was disagreeing with you :P I guess I had the wrong idea of what you mean by replacement effect.

Edited by saluk64007

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1 hour ago, Revert said:

 

If this is true, then if dust imp has biomatrix backup,  you can bypass dust imp's ability by having biomatrix backup resolve first? Maybe this is just an issue with Armageddon cloak being weird, and its wording not being fully compatible with the current rules. It is an effect whose execution would prevent its own effect from triggering. 

You resolve each ability in order, one by one. The cloak doesn't prevent it's own effect, because the state changes after you resolve it. You are right that it would seem that the backed-up dust imp can be prevented from gaining it's owner an aember - this was soft confirmed on discord but probably needs to be clarified in the faq.

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1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

"Go to the discard pile" is replaced with "go to your hand."

This is how it would need to work for it to work the way you claim, but isn't backed by the rules. Bad penny is returned to your hand before it is destroyed. Returning it to your hand removes all damage from it. Without damage, it is no longer being destroyed.

"If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect automatically resolves 
immediately before the card would be destroyed"

"If a card that is in play leaves play (is returned to hand or deck, 
destroyed, discarded, archived, or purged), all non-Æmber tokens and 
status cards on the card are removed"

"Destroyed: Return Bad Penny to your hand."

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I should clarify that I think one of my arguments is wrong, but I feel like I am being told contradictory information based off of people wanting cards to work different ways in different situations, and I am trying to make that apparent. Effects either enter a heap (or stack) when they are triggered and nothing can remove them from that, or you trigger them one at a time by picking currently legal options out of the crowd. You can't have it both ways.

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2 hours ago, Revert said:

I should clarify that I think one of my arguments is wrong, but I feel like I am being told contradictory information based off of people wanting cards to work different ways in different situations, and I am trying to make that apparent. Effects either enter a heap (or stack) when they are triggered and nothing can remove them from that, or you trigger them one at a time by picking currently legal options out of the crowd. You can't have it both ways.

This paragraph was added to the "Leaves Play" entry in the new rulebook:

Quote

When a card moves from an in–play zone to an out-of-play zone in which the identities of cards are hidden from the opponent (such as a player’s hand, deck, or archives), any pending effects that are currently or about to interact with that card no longer do so, unless a card effect explicitly states that it interacts with that zone

So the active player starts resolving abilities, and as long as the card is still visible, keeps on doing so. But once the card moves to a hidden zone, all remaining effects stop and none waiting to happen can apply.

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I don't think you understand the problem. If this game has a heap, then dust imp and Armageddon cloak will always gain amber.

It this game doesn't have a heap then loot the bodies doesn't work against bad penny. 

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11 hours ago, Revert said:

I don't think you understand the problem. If this game has a heap, then dust imp and Armageddon cloak will always gain amber.

It this game doesn't have a heap then loot the bodies doesn't work against bad penny. 

It does have a heap, but there's a rule now to clear the heap of anything that still references something that left for a hidden zone once an ability moves it there. In your first case, it also clears the Aember gain because Armageddon Cloak's resolution removes the triggering condition.

Edited by Rabbitball
Added a sentence

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