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JPierson

Runewars with Legion Rules

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So, I will start by saying that I have really enjoyed Runewars so far. But, after playing Star Wars Legion, I like those rules MUCH more. I really enjoy the openness of the battlefield, the unlimited variety of terrain and unit cohesion. So, my question is this- has anyone worked on rules for Runewars that mirrors Legion yet? 

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On 1/17/2019 at 9:48 AM, JPierson said:

So, I will start by saying that I have really enjoyed Runewars so far. But, after playing Star Wars Legion, I like those rules MUCH more. I really enjoy the openness of the battlefield, the unlimited variety of terrain and unit cohesion. So, my question is this- has anyone worked on rules for Runewars that mirrors Legion yet? 

Legion is a little of a sore spot with this community at the moment.

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The curiosity is that there is a post here right now proposing we should use legion's system for Runewars, and a proposal in the Armada forums proposing that the Runewars movement system be repurposed for Armada.  Crazy times we live in.

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12 hours ago, Vergilius said:

The curiosity is that there is a post here right now proposing we should use legion's system for Runewars, and a proposal in the Armada forums proposing that the Runewars movement system be repurposed for Armada.  Crazy times we live in.

I thought they wanted the runewars imitative system. Armada’s movement tool is fine but the activation mechanic hasn’t aged well

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48 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I thought they wanted the runewars imitative system. Armada’s movement tool is fine but the activation mechanic hasn’t aged well

Armada initiative is still ok, it really is not good to bad when you have a 2 ship vs 5-8 ship fleet, but it is still tons better than X-Wing. The multiple ship fleet can activate units out of the way to set up the 2 ship fleet for max damage and the 2 ship fleet can go turns without a worthwhile shot. Runewars has the BEST initiative IMO, but it could be hard to use in other games.

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12 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Armada initiative is still ok, it really is not good to bad when you have a 2 ship vs 5-8 ship fleet, but it is still tons better than X-Wing. The multiple ship fleet can activate units out of the way to set up the 2 ship fleet for max damage and the 2 ship fleet can go turns without a worthwhile shot. Runewars has the BEST initiative IMO, but it could be hard to use in other games.

I’ve played a good chunk of Armada. The activation mechanic rewards padding your fleet with activations to pull off something called last-first. There is no effective counter to that type of gameplay other than for the other player to pad their fleet with activations as well or take the few upgrades that break activation order. Basically, the only counter is to use that strategy too. 

 

There is no effective 2-3 ship fleet that doesn’t use Bail, Pryce, SAd, or some combination. 

 

If the only counter to a strategy is to use it yourself then it is broken. 

 

That is why some want a Runewars-ish activation system for Armada. It would be a dramatic improvement. 

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13 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I’ve played a good chunk of Armada. The activation mechanic rewards padding your fleet with activations to pull off something called last-first. There is no effective counter to that type of gameplay other than for the other player to pad their fleet with activations as well or take the few upgrades that break activation order. Basically, the only counter is to use that strategy too. 

 

There is no effective 2-3 ship fleet that doesn’t use Bail, Pryce, SAd, or some combination. 

 

If the only counter to a strategy is to use it yourself then it is broken. 

 

That is why some want a Runewars-ish activation system for Armada. It would be a dramatic improvement. 

Myself and many others have stated the easiest fix for Armada is to adopt the IA pass function. This would allow for smaller fleets and force Corvette spam to not be a thing. I am just thankful the got rid of Flotilla spam. Never played a game against 4+ flotilla, but it did not sound enjoyable to play with or against.

 

The biggest issue with Armada is the command dials and the pre-planning you have to do with advance dials. Expecting a large ship with 3 dials make initiative plans 3 turns in advanced while a corvette can do theirs fresh each turn. Plus many upgrades replaces the dial on that turn.

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Yes.  Initiation system.  I misspoke when I mentioned movement.  My mind jumps from sail to movement really easily.

Some of the activation issues, I think, have been fixed in Armada, but I find that it has power-creeped itself into a corner.  Burst damage has a very powerful place in the meta.  What is left of activation problems feeds this problem as well.

one thing that runewars has is that as a unit takes damage, it’s efficacy deteriorates.  Short of some critical effects in Armada, a unit on one health still does as much damage as one at full.

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On 1/24/2019 at 2:53 PM, rebellightworks said:

First major issue you'd run into is that in Star Wars 99% of figures carry a ranged weapon. Not the case in Terrinoth. That alone influenced many of the design decisions in the legion ruleset.

This is actually a great point I hadn't considered. It just sucks because I REALLY like the lore of Runewars and want to keep to them for my "go-to" fantasy battles, but I'm just looking for a bit more rules complexity like Legion. 

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hmmm thinking about this, and as an active Legion player, I could see this kind of thing working for skirmish game. 

I'd tender @Church14comments about activation Spam in Armada. There are real and effective counters. I play Imperial mostly so I tend to face lists which have that advantage. The major problem with activation spam lists is they have lots of smaller ships given the point costs needed to field lots of ships just to have the activations. Now that you can only field at most 2 transports, it forces rebel players to spend more on ships that are more brittle, like a CR90 or Hammerhead. 

Anyway, like your idea. Feels generally workable.  

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Armada and Runewars both suffer from a basic design issue which is  that the actual table time is where the least amount of the games strategy for resolving a game takes place.  Its a game about List Building and Deployment/starting postion, most games can effectively be called before round 1 on those to merits alone for both games assuming both players are not entirely new. 

Its always why lists in both games that are successful, by means of breaking out of those restraints, so for example in Armada first it was Corvette spam (mobility), then Flottila Spram (Activation advantage) and now its Raddus which again just go to mobility.  Runewars has similiar list building tactics, aka, it's all about breaking out of the mechanic constraints of the system.

Legion I think is mechanically considerably less constraint, but in the same token it really suffers at the hands of lady luck.  Much like X-Wing, even when running a perfectly executed strategy with percision, a couple of dice rolls don't go your way and you will lose anyway as the results can range from 0 losses, to an entire unit wipe with a single cast of the dice.  That however I think is less of an issue, miniature war games are after all, at their core dice driven games so its kind of part of the charm of these games and at least the game is decided during the actual playing of it and not at list building.

 

 

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3 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Armada and Runewars both suffer from a basic design issue which is  that the actual table time is where the least amount of the games strategy for resolving a game takes place.  Its a game about List Building and Deployment/starting postion, most games can effectively be called before round 1 on those to merits alone for both games assuming both players are not entirely new. 

Its always why lists in both games that are successful, by means of breaking out of those restraints, so for example in Armada first it was Corvette spam (mobility), then Flottila Spram (Activation advantage) and now its Raddus which again just go to mobility.  Runewars has similiar list building tactics, aka, it's all about breaking out of the mechanic constraints of the system.

Armada yes on deployments and list-building, though I think the regional results pointed away from Raddus and the Rebels.  And I think the lists cited do not break restraints so much as illustrate them.  Whatever list can exploit those to an extreme is going to win.

 

Runewars has some of that Armada effect.  Deployment matters, but the deployment to parity limits how much advantage you get.  Beyond that, list-building should matter in a list-building game, the only question being how much it matters.

Armada is at a point where there is diversity within a fairly narrow range of constraints.  To some, that range is quite large, and to some, the restrictions feel quit large.

for runewars, I feel the construction is quite different, and one that forces the decision of the game onto the table.  That’s why people noted at worlds that scores tended to be lower: many more 6-5s, 7-4s, especially between non-Uthuk factions.

dice variance also feels larger in Runewars than Armada.

just some observations.  Not sure what the stake is at this point, a couple months out from the start of the year.

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