Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Maktorius

Ardus Ix' Erebus (community errata discussion)

Recommended Posts

This post is branched from the main post on community erratas as the discussions got more elaborate.

Ardus is generally seen as the worst hero in the game, so he surely needs some love.

I think that he is too hard to keep alive and still getting him to do something useful. He is too slow, too soft and lacks ranged abilities. He is an easy target for long and short charges as well as getting sniped by archers. His battlefield role usually becomes "Hide the points!" or "Expensive meatshield!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a first attempt to fix Ardus. The two following posts from @QuickWhit and @Darth Matthew discusses it.

 

I've tried several different fixes, but in another thread i designed an artifact card (Horn of the legion) that I am just coming back to. Other fixes adjusting his movement and rerolling abilities needs more than a card fix. So I've integrated the Horn of the Legion ability into the card. (Note that the Horn is visible on his card, at his waist). This also takes advantage of the fact that his dial contains a Skill action that currently has ZERO applications! Thus making his dial more interesting.

The Horn of the Legion makes Ardus command his underlings to do the legwork on his behalf. The fact that he is forfeiting his own action in order to buff someone elses is a big drawback due to his 37p cost! But it makes him reliable, as he now becomes flexible. He has more options than standing back, waiting for an opportunity. He can engage when ready and support using his ability when waitin, like Lord Hawthorne. Reliability and flexibility!

This ability is also one of the few things that shakes up Waiqar's painful predictability.

This is version 1.2

-Added a Stun drawback thanks to the input from @Darth Matthew and @kaffis

-Reduced the range from 1-5 to 1-3.

RO2AEQM.jpg

 

Tests:

THIS IS @Darth Matthew  (Hope you don't mind me putting it in here).

"Ardus was stupid good.  Move up, in a wheel 3 and leave my flank open to my opponent.  He orders an init 3 charge, I pop ardus at init 2, and dance clear.  Being able to completely replace pretty much any initiative with "2" is just too good.  It's like having an easy button.  I was never punished for a poor move, as I could always just adjust at init 2.  Throw wind rune onto some units, and you're now shifting are reforming out of danger.

If Ardus had an init 5 skill, that item might work.

I like the idea, the execution is just too good.  I'd rather see Ardus doing something else; even if it's steal vitality.  Skill: Friendly unit at range 1-3 takes 1 wound; Ardus gains 1 vitality token.

He needs something, but not that init shift."

 
 
Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
THIS IS @QuickWhit from the other thread. Hope you don't mind me putting it in here :)
 
On 1/16/2019 at 8:39 AM, Maktorius said:

I appreciate this discussion!

Let's start with what we agree upon:

  1. Ardus is not up to snuff (though we differ on to what extent).
  2. Ardus has potential due to his VERY early (initiative 2) Skill action that is currently unused.

What we seem to disagree upon is

3. I think that he is too hard to keep alive and contributing to the fight. He is too slow and too soft and lacks ranged abilities. He is an easy target for long and short charges as well as getting sniped by archers. His battlefield role usually becomes "Hide the points!" or "Expensive meatshield!"

If I understand you correctly, you only fear the short charge because you usually can handle the long charge and archers by screening, and you don't have trouble getting him effectively engaged and still keep him alive?

Do I understand correctly that you solve this by putting him on the flank ("using him to cover flanks") protected by an inner screener?

I would think that it's hard to screen for a unit that is on the flank, as you usually only have potential screener (who I would assume often needs to help out in the center instead of protecting the flanker)?

And when screened, how do you get Ardus in melee smoothly, doesn't his poor dial and the screener get in the way?

If so, It does seem limiting play-wise to only have 1 viable strategy for him, Keep him screened on the flank. I would also be afraid that he would be out of range to use his "Surge-Borrowing" ability when standing on the flank.

I agree that Ardus is a bit weak, but I think most people are undervaluing/under-using Host of Crows in particular.  When you maximize it he is pretty close to worth his cost.  I think this is the important point where we disagree.  If he is close to where he needs to be then the Horn of the Legion is too strong a bump, especially if it's for free.  Now as a 6ish point artifact upgrade...

I have experienced the same problems you describe of him being difficult to keep alive or being an overpriced blocker.  However, I have found (especially recently) that not only is his army building ability seem more valuable the farther I push it in my lists, but that he can be a wrecking ball when used very carefully.  These two things together start to justify his weaknesses in my mind.  

To answer your questions about how I use him:

I typically use him to protect the flank of a more valuable unit in my list.  Lately that's been this one:

Reanimates [35] 3x2
Deathcaller [5]
Raven-Standard Bearer [3]
Marching Drummer [2]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 53

Then I screen Ardus with one (or both) of two units typically:

Wraiths [24] 3x1
Trumpets [2]
Raven Tabards [2]
Total Unit Cost: 28

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

The wraiths typically actually screen from the side.  They can be deployed a reasonable distance to Ardus flank and wheel to in his direction in such a way that they can pin anything trying to square off with him leaving that unit open to a charge from Ardus.  The Carrion Lancer can screen Ardus pretty well by lining up nearly right next to him but slightly in front.  That way it can typically engage something while still leaving an opening for Ardus to get in after it.  It's init 3 rally march also works very well for jamming up things trying to get to Ardus.

Additionally, I've often been putting a 2x1 of RAs with CI and MCWs behind, or a bit to the side and behind Ardus.  This gives Ardus some blight cover and some great surge synergies.

Finally, I've been running a 2x1 of DKs with Obcasiums and Dispatch Runner.  This unit has, more than once, allowed Ardus to swing 3 times against a unit before they can retaliate.  It also becomes a great threat to heros like Ravos getting in to take Ardus out before he can get his value in.  

Note the high amount of synergy and heavy use of Host of Crows here.  When you go all in on this stuff it pays off a lot and you start to see a lot more value from him.

Is this a limited strategy?  Kind of... but it works very well.  And a large amount of the strategy with Ardus comes from the list building aspect, not the dial.  Once I've gotten the value from Host of Crows, I'm trying to muster as much value out of him in gamplay as I can.  With this strategy I've had him be the MVP of my list more than a few times.  When it's not him it's the Wraiths with Raven Tabards or the Deathcaller Disco Reanimates carrying.  Or the DK's dispatching the Reanimates.  All three of these units only exist in the same Army with Ardus in it.

On 1/16/2019 at 8:39 AM, Maktorius said:

Back to our different solutions

It is of course natural that if we disagree on his weaknesses, we disagree on the solution.

What I'm thinking is that Death's Gaze still puts him in the same voulnurable and limited position. BUT in some cases (faced with a short charge) he has a better chance to survive. But I wonder what the percentage of that succeeding is, as the cards that make the enemy reform are not level 1 and they are far between and are even harder against Steadfast units (i.e. Uthuk). I can't see how this makes him more than a smudge more reliable. Though it is still far better than nothing, so I would support it 100% rather than leaving him as is.

So the skill I proposed for Ardus, again was this:

While your dial is revealed with a skill on it, any enemy unit within range 1-3 and in line of sight of Ardus must make a severity [Stable] morale test before revealing their dial.

OMG I think someone just asked me to do Runewars math! (rubbing hands together)

Let's look at it in the vacuum of no cards have been pulled from the morale deck and a single, non-steadfast unit with no banes/boons is facing off against Ardus:

There are 30 cards in the morale deck:
7 Severity 3
8 Severity 2
15 Severity 1

When there is 1 Stable rune:
You have a 50% chance to get a severity 1 morale test.
You have a 10% chance to get Frozen with Dread (3/30).  You have a 13.3% chance to get Disarray (4/30).  You have a 16.6% chance to get rising panic (5/30).  You have a 10% chance to get wavering Resolve (3/30).                        
220?cb=20170731044053  220?cb=20170731043917  220?cb=20170731044147  220?cb=20170731044240

So even with 1 blue rune you have a 23.3% chance to jam them up for the round.  If you don't get the stun or immobilize you have a 26.6% chance to have 1 to 2 panic tokens on them which could potentially net you a large morale test next round.  Note also that if you get a stun (the best result) your opponent will end up failing their charge and getting a panic, giving the possibility of a severity 3 morale test next round as well.

With 2 Stable runes:
Odds get a bit funky here because the first card you pull changes the odds of what you will pull on the second.  Additionally you have increased odds to get a particular card because you are drawing two.  All percentages are approximate.
You have a 75% chance to get a severity 1 morale test.
You have a 40% chance to get a severity 2 morale test.
You have a 15% chance of getting Frozen with Dread.  You have a 20% chance of getting Disarray.  You have a 40% chance of getting Rising Panic or Wavering Resolve. You have a 10% chance of getting Uncertainty (2/30), a 15% chance of getting Loss of Faith (3/30), and you have a 15% chance of getting Communication Breakdown.  You have an overall 92% chance to get a severity 1 or 2 morale test at all (granted some are obviously much better than others).

220?cb=20170731044213  220?cb=20170731044121  220?cb=20170731043839

So with 2 stable you are often probably hoping for a stun, an immobilize, or a reform.  The odds of catching one of those 3 is 45%.  If you don't you have a decent chance of removing a tray, putting panic on them, or getting inspiration for yourself or an ally.

So there is the math in a vacuum.  Outside of a vacuum it is obviously not as good against steadfast units, especially steadfast fear.  Note that getting a severity 2 is still pretty good against those units though as you can still get a decent chance of a stun, immobilize, or removal of a tray.

It is also worth noting that units coming into Ardus, in my experience often come with either a bane or a boon, or both.  Carrion lancer spit, archer blight, and panic from failed charges while trying to predict an aggressive move are all pretty normal.  All of these situations change the math as well as what makes for a good result.  If a unit has a blight and an inspiration token, then remove all boons is pretty decent as it means Ardus is much more likely to survive the charge and punish them back.  If I am dispatching Ardus, or I have Dimodian Blades on him, an inspiration token is also pretty good.  Additionally, outside of the situation in which Ardus is staring down another unit, sometimes he doesn't have the opportunity to get into a position on his own and the ability to generate a couple of morale tests on units engaged with his allies could be pretty **** good.

All of this is not to convince you that this is a better upgrade to Ardus than the Horn you propose.  It just isn't.  I just don't think he needs that much improvement and I view this upgrade as something that is both flavorful and helpful, while not being overbearing. 

Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@QuickWhit

Really appreciate your explanation!

I like your idea, using a ranged ability with his skill action feels like the natural fix (why else would he even have a skill action since it currently can't be activated and he is already competent in smashing something if positioned correctly).

And I can see this working against well against Daqan. Though I'm a bit concerned about how effective it will be against Uthuk in particular. Uthuk is already a bad matchup for Waiqar, and the average chance of a succesful card draw is 23%-45% according to your calculation, so with the Uthuk Steadfast, I would imagine you would not rely on it having much of an effect?

As I pitched earlier, why not make the ability give a Stun right away instead of muddling with the treacherous Morale deck? Like a Medusa/Basilisk stare? (All other things just as you propose).

Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Maktorius said:

@QuickWhit

Really appreciate your explanation!

I like your idea, using a ranged ability with his skill action feels like the natural fix (why else would he even have a skill action since it currently can't be activated and he is already competent in smashing something if positioned correctly).

And I can see this working against well against Daqan. Though I'm a bit concerned about how effective it will be against Uthuk in particular. Uthuk is already a bad matchup for Waiqar, and the average chance of a succesful card draw is 23%-45% according to your calculation, so with the Uthuk Steadfast, I would imagine you would not rely on it having much of an effect?

As I pitched earlier, why not make the ability give a Stun right away instead of muddling with the treacherous Morale deck? Like a Medusa/Basilisk stare? (All other things just as you propose).

Yeah Uthuk is definitely the scariest match up, not just for Waiqar, but for Ardus specifically.  Ravos and Kethra both eat his lunch pretty efficiently.  I still have had success against them but usually that success revolves around the list that Ardus enables me to bring.  The Deathcaller reanimates for example are a huge threat to Kethra.  The Death Knights handle Ravos pretty well too (though you typically have to sacrifice them in the process).  I also find that I get a lot of use out of blight archers against them because they don't rally or bank inspiration well.  So yeah, this doesn't help as much against Uthuk, but I think that's ok... especially if Ravos and Spined Threshers get some nerfs.  I don't view Latari or Daqan as needing any nerfs currently so getting him a slight bump in those matchups while bringing Uthuk down slightly seems correct to me.

Also, I think giving him an auto stun would be too good.

Plus I want to see Ardus just stare some **** down Clint Eastwood style...

Edited by QuickWhit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

Additionally, I've often been putting a 2x1 of RAs with CI and MCWs behind, or a bit to the side and behind Ardus.  This gives Ardus some blight cover and some great surge synergies.

Bless you! I have been using a similar strategy with Ardus inline with a 12-tray of Reanimates, and it is extremely helpful. The plus side is that Ardus is relatively much safer as a figure upgrade, but the downside is that without Host of Crows, the Reanimate Archers must be 2x2 to take Master-Crafted Weapons. But that does give them a reroll, so I consider it worth it.

Now I am eager to try Ardus out on his own to take maximum advantage of Host of Crows and see what kind of awful things he can do to his enemies. 2x1 Reanimate Archers with Rank Discipline and Corruption Rune sounds particularly frightening.

I think when his combo goes well, he is an absolute terror from the mists, but he dies too fast for his points. I guess that makes him a glass cannon, but I personally need more practice before I say for sure what he needs in terms of a boost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Host of Crows is tough, because it enables builds and saves points. At present, I believe you're always better off spending Ardus's points on the larger unit when you want those higher upgrade tiers, because he personally is so weak. He should be at least pretty good in specific builds. If we assume the dial is off-limits, these are my favourite ideas:

  • Plain old points drop. If he started at 32 or so, he would feel much better.
  • A commander ability in the vein of Prince Faolan (Etharyon of the Ailatar) or Th'Uk Tar. His skill is on his left dial so he's worse at it, and it feels a bit silly to have a similar ability in three of four factions, but it is thematic. I do not think it should violate initiative order so severely as having the unit activate next.
  • Make him tougher! He can't outmaneuver anyone, so he may as well be able to take a hit. Plus, if he gets +1 defense flat, he can take Shield of Margath, and that's an interesting item and role.
  • An aura buff. He already has a strong theme of army synergy, so imagine "other friendly units at range 1-3 gain Lethal 1." Makes bunching up around him more rewarding, changes the calculus of list building (MSU takes advantage of the lethal better), and suits his theme.

I should also note that I think Waiqar as a faction is a bit weak, and being propped up by Vorun'thul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Plus I want to see Ardus just stare some **** down Clint Eastwood style...

This is naturally a given! :D

I have only 2 issues with your suggestion, and I guess we are not going to agree on this ;)

1) I actually wants something that hits Uthuk just as much (or actually I want extra power against them in particular)

2) I want something that has at least "reasonable" reliability. That would be over 50%, even under less than favourable circumstances I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

This is naturally a given! :D

I have only 2 issues with your suggestion, and I guess we are not going to agree on this ;)

1) I actually wants something that hits Uthuk just as much (or actually I want extra power against them in particular)

2) I want something that has at least "reasonable" reliability. That would be over 50%, even under less than favourable circumstances I guess.

Keep in mind that it is ok for certain heros to be better against certain Armies... Vorun'Thul is the guy you want to bring against Uthuk more often then not.  If you are like me and are just an Ardus fan boy, then you have to find other ways to make him work against them.  At the very least I've found an Ardus list that performs pretty well against Uthuk and Latari (haven't put it against Daqan yet).

I get wanting a fix to Ardus to be very reliable... but I'm a little worried that he could get out of hand with the number of synergies and benefits that he brings, especially if Uthuk get nerfed and other Waiqar units get buffed.  He really does bring a lot, even though some times it's not apparent...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

He really does bring a lot, even though some times it's not apparent...

I just looked at some of the other heroes: Ravos, Kethra, Prince Faolan, Meagan, Aliana, Kari and Lord V.

I agree that it is not apparent ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I just looked at some of the other heroes: Ravos, Kethra, Prince Faolan, Meagan, Aliana, Kari and Lord V.

I agree that it is not apparent ;)

I realize you are kidding, but I find this remark to be a tad aggravating...  

In case it wasn't clear from our earlier discussion, I do agree with you that Ardus is the worst of the heroes in the game.  I also agree he could use a bump. I also think that bump is best focused on his skill.  I just disagree with how bad you think he is and how big a bump he needs. I don't think I implied at any point that he was as good as the heroes you listed...

That those heroes show more value on the table is exactly my point.  The value of those heroes shows in thier dials and abilities.  The value of Ardus shows in his army building ability, which is probably the best one in the game, when you make use of it. . 

Apologies if I've become needlessly defensive... that comment rubbed me the wrong way...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading the comments, it seems like there's a decent amount of agreement that this version of Ardus is too strong.

Your design goal seems to be leaning into his battle commander status. Recent Runewars design usually seems to represent this by using a skill action to move another unit. Take, for example, Etharyon of the Ailatar or Beastmaster Thu'Uk Tar. Both have a very similar skill action to each-other, and both can activate that skill action at initiative 2, in the right circumstances.

Both also have a downside, and I think Ardus would need one too. Etharyon is an upgrade card, costing 5 points and giving up Prince Faolan's other upgrades. It's also in the faction that is best at movement shenanigans, so it should stay the best of the three, imo.

Beastmaster Thu'Uk Tar, by contrast, only works at range 1-2, doesn't work on heroes, causes a wound, and doesn't get the optional turn modifier. This is all very flavorful, since it seems to represent him using his whips instead of commanding with his voice. This is probably closer to the power level we're looking for on Ardus.

A different, but still very relevant downside could be giving them a bane instead of a wound. Any of them could work, flavor-wise; they could get blight because that's what undead do and whatever power he's commanding them with could add that. They could get panic because he's scaring them into doing what he wants. They could get a stun or immobilize to represent the extra effort it takes to move like that.

I think any of those could be potentially worse than a wound, so maybe increase his range; he's most likely using his voice, not an attack, so he could go up to 1-3 or maybe even 1-5. This would also help him out since he's not very fast and he can't move in the same turn he uses that skill action, so he's likely to get left behind pretty fast.

Maybe test some of these options, see which one feels punishing enough that the ability isn't too good, but not so punishing that you never want to use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those familiar with Warhammer Fantasy, I always expected waiqar to get something like danse macabre. For reference, it is a spell that lets a unit March straight ahead, and counts as a charge if it impacts. This was the foil to the shambling undead's slow speed. You could argue that it's a better fit for ankaur, but it's also a command that is unique to the game and suits ardus fairly well. Say, a unit gets a speed two march which counts as a charge but doesn't give panic for failing to contact. Initiative two is a very awkward time for that though, so it may not be worth much...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

I realize you are kidding, but I find this remark to be a tad aggravating...  

In case it wasn't clear from our earlier discussion, I do agree with you that Ardus is the worst of the heroes in the game.  I also agree he could use a bump. I also think that bump is best focused on his skill.  I just disagree with how bad you think he is and how big a bump he needs. I don't think I implied at any point that he was as good as the heroes you listed...

That those heroes show more value on the table is exactly my point.  The value of those heroes shows in thier dials and abilities.  The value of Ardus shows in his army building ability, which is probably the best one in the game, when you make use of it. . 

Apologies if I've become needlessly defensive... that comment rubbed me the wrong way...

I apologize, it was an unnecessary comment and a poor attempt of a friendly tease. I do know that text does not always capture those sort of things well, and I should have refrained from it. I did not mean to aggrevate you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Maktorius said:

I apologize, it was an unnecessary comment and a poor attempt of a friendly tease. I do know that text does not always capture those sort of things well, and I should have refrained from it. I did not mean to aggrevate you.

Bah, I think I was probably being a bit too sensitive...   If conversation were in person I likely would have taken it a lot better...  Thank you for the apology though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's discuss further, and leave the current suggestions that we have elaborated on a side for now and see if we can find other common grounds?

 @Bhelliom mentioned aura buffs, and that should be efficient due to Ardus' low initiative on his Skill action (and I can viualize those as his magic horn that I've been raving about ;), and it should be easy to keep track on as his dial is open, so let's talk about those:

  1. Allies at range 1-3 gets Leathal 1 (personally I would like to se Lethal [Stable] or range 1-5)
  2. Allies at range 1-3 gets Protected 1 (personally I would like to se Protected [Stable] or range 1-5).
  3. Allies at range 1-3 gains Steadfast Fear for this round (I would like range 1-5)
  4. Allies at range 1-3 may remove 1 Bane or ad 1 Inspiration
  5. Allies at range 1-3 may add [Panic] to their attack. (I would like range 1-5)
  6. Allies at range 1-3 may re-roll 1 attack dice this round
  7. Enemies at range 1-3 receives 1 Blight token (maybe even [Natural] 🤯
  8. Enemies at range 1-3 removes 1 Inspiration or receives 1 Panic token
  9. Enemies at range 1-3 attacks with 1 less attack dice this round

 

I really like this one. I don't think that Waiqar's "Blight game" is developed into maturity. It currently feels clunky because Carrion Lancers can't blight engaged units. This makes Blight-combos without Reanimate archers possible, as he CAN blight engaged units. This would also increase Ardus survivability (something that many has expressed as his biggest problem), especially when faced against a short charge or melee combat that he can't do anything about. With this ability, he can blight the enemy and have the shield modifier, thus making him, A HERO, able to at least have a pretty good chance of surviving a charge or an attack.

AlXUbMS.jpg

As always, before anyone screams "OP!", keep in mind that this guy costs 37p, is slow as ****, and his skill action is on the left dial, so he can't attack, move or even reform while activating the ability.

His dial for reference:

NkBSeuG.png

 

Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

Let's discuss further, and leave the current suggestions that we have elaborated on a side for now and see if we can find other common grounds?

 @Bhelliom mentioned aura buffs, and that should be efficient due to Ardus' low initiative on his Skill action (and I can viualize those as his magic horn that I've been raving about ;), and it should be easy to keep track on as his dial is open, so let's talk about those:

  1.  Allies at range 1-3 gets Leathal 1 (personally I would like to se Lethal [Stable])
  2. Allies at range 1-3 gets Protected 1 (personally I would like to se Protected [Stable]).
  3. Allies at range 1-3 gains Steadfast Fear for this round
  4. Allies at range 1-3 may remove 1 Bane or ad 1 Inspiration
  5. Allies at range 1-3 may add [Panic] to their attack.

1 and 2 seem pretty good.  Would Lethal 1/Protected 1 be too much?

3 is my favorite.  Giving nearby units resistance to morale tests seems very flavorful for a leader type unit, and would be new.  I actually think it could even be stronger though.... What if it gave nearby units "Steadfast [Doubt, Fear]".  This wouldn't be too much stronger as most of the Waiqar units are already steadfast Doubt.

4 feels too close to Hawthorne.

5 is interesting...  Not sure how I feel about it...  It does support panic for Waiqar... which is useful.. but it's conceptually weird.  It is probably just simpler to give a panic to all enemies at range 1-3, which starts to feel a lot like Spined Threshers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hm, why should it be a skill action? What if he just gives lethal 1 to other allies at range 1-3 all the time? Be an interesting foil to the way he borrows surge abilities.

I wonder how that would be with a gunline. Host of crows lets you take fire rune on 2x1 reanimate archers, and we already know double dipping on lethal is good...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Hm, why should it be a skill action? What if he just gives lethal 1 to other allies at range 1-3 all the time? Be an interesting foil to the way he borrows surge abilities.

I wonder how that would be with a gunline. Host of crows lets you take fire rune on 2x1 reanimate archers, and we already know double dipping on lethal is good...

1) I want choices in the game, and activated abilities has to be chosen instead of something else.

2) I want to use the dials, as they are a game component that I like, and the skill action is on the dial.

3) I want cool effects. A constant ability has to be curbed harder than an ability that has an alternative-cost. I.e. you could add  more power to a Skill action!

4) His skill action is at an unusually low initiative, that in it self is interesting to me and has the potential to do something interesting.

5) I don't like loose ends, why does his dial has a skill action that can't be used?

With all the above stated reasons, why would you want to have a static ability? :)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Maktorius said:

@QuickWhit I edited in a few more to the post, what do you think of those?

6 - seems alright.  

7 - while this would be very useful, feels too close to lancers... and not that thematic

8 - removing boons would be good and pretty unique, though only situationally useful.  Adding panic seems alright. 

9 - not sure how I feel about this one.  At the very least I don't like it as much as most of the others. 

3 is still my favorite thematically. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

1) I want choices in the game, and activated abilities has to be chosen instead of something else.

2) I want to use the dials, as they are a game component that I like, and the skill action is on the dial.

3) I want cool effects. A constant ability has to be curbed harder than an ability that has an alternative-cost. I.e. you could add  more power to a Skill action!

4) His skill action is at an unusually low initiative, that in it self is interesting to me and has the potential to do something interesting.

5) I don't like loose ends, why does his dial has a skill action that can't be used?

With all the above stated reasons, why would you want to have a static ability? :)

Yeah, fair enough. Thing is his dial is already pretty bad and awkward to use, so forcing him to spend his action to activate an ability feels bad. Have you played with Hawthorne much? He's got a cool and useful ability, but it doesn't feel all that good to use because it grounds him so hard. Now Hawthorne has an amazing dial and is quite good at catching up on turn two, but Ardus needs absolutely every action available to him. Plus, I think there's a reasonable contingent of people that want their cool armored skeleton commander to get stuck in and do some chopping, so forcing such a hard choice doesn't appeal to me. 

Needing to stay at range 3 of Ardus is indeed a choice that has to be planned around. Rather than choosing whether to dial in the powerful thing, you have to choose your maneuvers in such a way that he's close enough to both the units you want to buff and the units that buff him. It's possible that range 3 isn't correct for making that an interesting gameplay mechanic, but it's a start.

You're not wrong about the under-utilized skill action, but it's also largely an artifact of core set game design. You can see that on more modern heroes, powerful skill actions come on the modifier dial, so it certainly seems like they abandoned the idea of dials like Ardus and Kari. And it still CAN be used for scenario objectives and such (though low initiative is explicitly bad for seize the artifacts at least).

So, I want it to be a static ability because I want to be moving him into a better position or fighting with him literally every turn (or really, I want my opponent to do so) and because I want to add an explicit, deliberate boost to his power level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An extra Blue attack dice for him then? That would allow him to not feel guilty if he makes an attack and selects  the shield modifier instead of Surge or Hit, which would increase both survivability and melee reliability.

Or an replenishable Vitality token? [Skill action] (i.e. Drink from the horn filled with magic mead😞 Recieve 1 Vitality token if you don't already have one.

He is magically UNdead after all :)

Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about we just give him an equipment slot?

Then he could take wind rune, rune of corruption, fire rune, master crafted, or tempered steel.  All of those are decent on him.

It makes sense,  he passes out upgrades to everyone else, now he would keep something for himself.

Wind rune would cover his lack of dial mobility (when the green runes come up); fire rune would give him something to do if he's supporting flank; corruption is always good; and master crafted/tempered still makes him just a bit more punchy.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can get behind @Darth Matthew s suggestion, since my own suggestions don't seem to get any traction *sob*. Though it would screw with Tabletop admiral (as is).

Giving him a Rune equipment in particular would:

a) Be thematic, heroes using rune-magic seems natural (in the setting).

b) Allow him to use his currently unusable skill action (without becoming passive as @Bhelliom wanted to avoid).

c) Shore up his weaknesses of not having mobility and/or range effects.

The Runes are not cheap though, and sinking another 4-7 points in him might not make him adequately "better per point"? Would it be crazy for him to get a Rune equipment for free (that would be less of an issue with Tabletop admiral)? I mean the Corruption Rune is pretty similar to @QuickWhits Death's gaze idea.

"Before deployment, you may equip either a Corruption Rune, Wind Rune or Fire Rune upgrade".

Edited by Maktorius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...