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msieder

The deck that will make you quit keyforge

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2 x Nepenthe Seed; 2 x Witch of the Eye; 1 library Access; 1 key charge  ; phase shift



Stupid game sometimes eh?    

 

Edited by msieder

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1 hour ago, msieder said:

2 x Nepenthe Seed; 2 x Witch of the Eye; 1 library Access; 1 keyforge  

Stupid game sometimes eh?    

 

Keycharge (which I assume you meant to say, I've done that repeatedly myself) is extremely annoying but the rest here is only mildly irritating depending on what's in the deck.

Library Access isn't that impressive in this specific list of cards unless it's a maverick into Untamed.

Witch of the Eye can be removed though Nepenthe Seed makes it so purging is just about required in that aspect.

The deck also needs consistent aember generating cards.

What's in the rest of the deck?

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51 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

Keycharge (which I assume you meant to say, I've done that repeatedly myself) is extremely annoying but the rest here is only mildly irritating depending on what's in the deck.

Library Access isn't that impressive in this specific list of cards unless it's a maverick into Untamed.

Witch of the Eye can be removed though Nepenthe Seed makes it so purging is just about required in that aspect.

The deck also needs consistent aember generating cards.

What's in the rest of the deck?

Nepenthe Seed is used to retrieve LA after that is played to draw two-three cards per card played. Witch of the eye really isn't doing much there, since on the LA turn, the entire deck is drawn anyways. If there is any Æmber-gain on Logos actions, that means on the LA turn at least 6 Æmber per +Æ card is generated. Then the next turns are just Untamed with all 12 Untamed cards in the deck, including Keycharge, which can then on the next 2 turns can be retrieved by the Nepenthe Seeds (or technically witch of the eye if she survived, but the deck doesn't depend on that). LA literally is the one reason a deck featuring these cards would be (is, I think there are one or two Edit: Nevermind, there are 140 of them. Oops!) completely busted.

Edited by Admiral Deathrain

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2 hours ago, msieder said:

2 x Nepenthe Seed; 2 x Witch of the Eye; 1 library Access; 1 keyforge  

Stupid game sometimes eh?    

 

I assume you meant Key Charge and not Keyforge.  If so, you're in luck.

There are currently only 10 decks registered with all of those cards present out of the 497,633 decks in the Master Vault.  That's only a 0.002% chance of running into such a deck.

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5 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I assume you meant Key Charge and not Keyforge.  If so, you're in luck. 

There are currently only 10 decks registered with all of those cards present out of the 497,633 decks in the Master Vault.  That's only a 0.002% chance of running into such a deck. 

The witches are far from necessary, though. They are slow and unreliable and not immediately relevant to the combo. The important part with double seed, keycharge, and LA exists 140 times, a few of those will have some +Æ-cards in Logos to make it completely broken.

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Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

The witches are far from necessary, though. They are slow and unreliable and not immediately relevant to the combo. The important part with double seed, keycharge, and LA exists 140 times, a few of those will have some +Æ-cards in Logos to make it completely broken.

Fair.

Also important to remember when we look these things up that these results include foreign language decks that we're never likely to see.  The 10 I referenced above are...

  • Floyd, Leader del Collegion Schiacciante
  • Le Roux el Marcado
  • Juno, Minnesanderin des Horts
  • Father Nevedark Daringsworth
  • "Whale" Shafi, Arena Egghead
  • W. Tsong, Direttore di Pinolocinereo
  • Hermwill, the Clonelike Windmill Judge
  • Basia, "Professor Keyboard" Lopez
  • Liv "Tiranna", Imbrogliona della Collina

Several look to be Italian or German.  I assume some of those 140 will be foreign as well.  I'm not likely to run into a German language deck in my local store.

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1 minute ago, KrisWall said:

Fair.

Also important to remember when we look these things up that these results include foreign language decks that we're never likely to see.  The 10 I referenced above are...

  • Floyd, Leader del Collegion Schiacciante
  • Le Roux el Marcado
  • Juno, Minnesanderin des Horts
  • Father Nevedark Daringsworth
  • "Whale" Shafi, Arena Egghead
  • W. Tsong, Direttore di Pinolocinereo
  • Hermwill, the Clonelike Windmill Judge
  • Basia, "Professor Keyboard" Lopez
  • Liv "Tiranna", Imbrogliona della Collina

Several look to be Italian or German.  I assume some of those 140 will be foreign as well.  I'm not likely to run into a German language deck in my local store.

Well...I'm unlikely to run into any English decks any time soon here in Germany :D (some people prefer them, but nobody in my area). I still look at the entirety of available decks to judge how common something will be, it is the only data we have. Also noteworthy is that any language material typically is legal in any tournament setting, so a hypothetical market for top tier decks will be international.

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1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Well...I'm unlikely to run into any English decks any time soon here in Germany :D (some people prefer them, but nobody in my area). I still look at the entirety of available decks to judge how common something will be, it is the only data we have. Also noteworthy is that any language material typically is legal in any tournament setting, so a hypothetical market for top tier decks will be international.

Wouldn't that make you Admiral Todesregen?

I also look at the entirety of the deck base and will sometimes get gaming materials in other languages.  I live in the US now, but spent my formative years in Switzerland where they expect you to learn 3-4 languages minimum.  Half of my old board games are in French or Spanish.  Nowadays, I stick to English.  Most of my friends here speak English only.

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Play more Sealed!

Also, we still don't know what format major events will be, but with the variety of different Sealed and Constructed formats already in place, it seems unlikely it's going to just be 'best constructed deck'.

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The first thing I do when I see someone complaining about a broken Library Access deck (or conversely, trying to hype one up on ebay) is check to make sure it has a Phase Shift.  If it doesn't, it can't forge the turn it runs through the deck, which means the opponent can steal almost all of its Aember with like two cards: Too Much to Protect followed by anything that get the opponent down under 6 Aember.  

The second thing I do is check to see how the deck is going to be forging its keys during its subsequent turn.  Key Charge is fine.  Key Charge + Chota Hazri is better.  Multiple Key Abductions is best.  If the deck only has a single Key Charge, then assuming both Nepenthe seeds were blown getting the "draw my whole hand" thing going, then an opponent who can kill any Witch of the Eye cards can prevent the Key Charge from being used multiple times.  So now the Library Access deck can play a ton of cards out of hand to create a board position and get some Aember, but again, a single Bait & Switch takes care of the Aember, and a single Gateway to Dis takes care of the board.

Library Access one turn kill decks have phase shift + something like key charge or key abduction, and cannot really be countered, short of killing the nepenthe seeds as soon as they appear.  Even then, they can be delayed with cards like Control the Weak.  But many people that talk about these decks being a problem overestimate how common they are, because they don't understand that Phase Shift is required.

Edited by andrew144

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Once you play LA (which needs the seed usually) a couple of times (and have phase shift in your deck), then a single Keycharge is all that's needed.

You will continually draw your discarded cards back to your hand by playing any Logos card or a Phase Shifted off card.

The full loop combo wins in 1 turn with LA plus a couple other Logos cards in hand, Seed on the board readied (or some other usable return from discard effect), and any instant forging card and phase shift anywhere in your deck or discard. They don't need to be in your hand as you will draw your deck fully and redraw it once cards are discarded.

It's a beyond broken combo and will absolutely dominate any sort of Archon format major tournament. I fully expect a rules errata at some point that changes it (like cards aren't discarded until end of turn or something similar).

 

Edit: Yes, these decks are rare but they absolutely exist and can be bought. If you don't bring one, or bring a deck that can remove artifacts reliably (and hold them until seeds are played), then don't even bother playing an Archon format major tournament.

Edited by PickleTheHutt

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6 hours ago, PickleTheHutt said:

Once you play LA (which needs the seed usually) a couple of times (and have phase shift in your deck), then a single Keycharge is all that's needed.

You will continually draw your discarded cards back to your hand by playing any Logos card or a Phase Shifted off card.

The full loop combo wins in 1 turn with LA plus a couple other Logos cards in hand, Seed on the board readied (or some other usable return from discard effect), and any instant forging card and phase shift anywhere in your deck or discard. They don't need to be in your hand as you will draw your deck fully and redraw it once cards are discarded.

It's a beyond broken combo and will absolutely dominate any sort of Archon format major tournament. I fully expect a rules errata at some point that changes it (like cards aren't discarded until end of turn or something similar).

 

Edit: Yes, these decks are rare but they absolutely exist and can be bought. If you don't bring one, or bring a deck that can remove artifacts reliably (and hold them until seeds are played), then don't even bother playing an Archon format major tournament.

Or you  could just bring a deck to beat it.  2xNexus, a Poltergeist or two, maybe some Gorm of Omm action.   A deck with 4 artifact removal is probably sufficient, but 5 should probably be pretty reliable.

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6 hours ago, PickleTheHutt said:

Once you play LA (which needs the seed usually) a couple of times (and have phase shift in your deck), then a single Keycharge is all that's needed.

You will continually draw your discarded cards back to your hand by playing any Logos card or a Phase Shifted off card.

The full loop combo wins in 1 turn with LA plus a couple other Logos cards in hand, Seed on the board readied (or some other usable return from discard effect), and any instant forging card and phase shift anywhere in your deck or discard. They don't need to be in your hand as you will draw your deck fully and redraw it once cards are discarded.

It's a beyond broken combo and will absolutely dominate any sort of Archon format major tournament. I fully expect a rules errata at some point that changes it (like cards aren't discarded until end of turn or something similar).

 

Edit: Yes, these decks are rare but they absolutely exist and can be bought. If you don't bring one, or bring a deck that can remove artifacts reliably (and hold them until seeds are played), then don't even bother playing an Archon format major tournament.

Not sure if you were replying to me or not.  If you were replying to me, the entire premise of my mail was that the deck doesn't have Phase Shift.  I was explaining why Library Access combos *without* Phase Shift are not auto-win, even over the course of several turns.

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17 hours ago, andrew144 said:

Not sure if you were replying to me or not.  If you were replying to me, the entire premise of my mail was that the deck doesn't have Phase Shift.  I was explaining why Library Access combos *without* Phase Shift are not auto-win, even over the course of several turns.

For sure!

While not auto win, I still have an issue with LA being played twice. Having the whole deck in your hand really changes the game in ways that don't feel intentionally designed. Being able to just dump 12 cards in the next house you play, or keep doing the LA combo repeatedly feels broken. It doesn't have to actually BE broken to be a negative experience.

I've only run into these decks in the wild a couple times, and I'm doubtful that playing them is fun enough that they will stick around too much longer in the meta. So I'm not too worried overall. But we'll see.

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23 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

Any decks with Restinguntus, conrol the weak, dominator bauble and witch of the eye?

That deck wouldn't make me quit, but it would make me stop...

Not as much of an issue anymore, since restringuntus + control the weak no longer locks the opponent out of any house. The new rules changed the interaction such that can't overrules must, so either you choose the same house for both and restringuntus locks, or you choose a different house with CTW and that is the house they must choose.

But witch of the eye, dominator, and control the weak can be enough, especially if you can trick them into having one house in hand.

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23 minutes ago, saluk64007 said:

Not as much of an issue anymore, since restringuntus + control the weak no longer locks the opponent out of any house. The new rules changed the interaction such that can't overrules must, so either you choose the same house for both and restringuntus locks, or you choose a different house with CTW and that is the house they must choose.

But witch of the eye, dominator, and control the weak can be enough, especially if you can trick them into having one house in hand.

I literally opened a deck last weekend with restringuntus + control the weak and now they nerfed fixed it? Oh well I'm not mad, first off that combo (without dominator and witch) would lock them only for one turn, and  second, I'm glad FFG changed the ruling. this game doesn't need a combo tha stops the oponent from playing the game.

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3 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

This game doesn't need a combo that stops the opponent from playing the game.

You can still get the lucky/unlucky draw though. You can't play Mars, then you play 2 Shadow and draw Mars and now with 6 Mars cards you are back to watching me play the game. For as long as Restringuntus remains alive you will slowly draw cards for the "non-playable house" and eventually run into trouble.

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A couple of things. Phase shift was in this deck. Library Access was not a Maverick. Witch of the Eye is not necessary to the combo. There are currently 632 decks with at least 1 of the following:

Library Access
Nepenthe Seed
Key Charge

Phase Shift

 

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:15 PM, Robin Graves said:

Any decks with Restinguntus, conrol the weak, dominator bauble and witch of the eye?

That deck wouldn't make me quit, but it would make me stop...

The decks are the different sides to the same coin. One prevents you from doing anything, and you watch your opponent win. The other does all the things, and you watch your opponent win. 

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On 1/16/2019 at 4:10 PM, andrew144 said:

The first thing I do when I see someone complaining about a broken Library Access deck (or conversely, trying to hype one up on ebay) is check to make sure it has a Phase Shift.  If it doesn't, it can't forge the turn it runs through the deck, which means the opponent can steal almost all of its Aember with like two cards: Too Much to Protect followed by anything that get the opponent down under 6 Aember.  

The second thing I do is check to see how the deck is going to be forging its keys during its subsequent turn.  Key Charge is fine.  Key Charge + Chota Hazri is better.  Multiple Key Abductions is best.  If the deck only has a single Key Charge, then assuming both Nepenthe seeds were blown getting the "draw my whole hand" thing going, then an opponent who can kill any Witch of the Eye cards can prevent the Key Charge from being used multiple times.  So now the Library Access deck can play a ton of cards out of hand to create a board position and get some Aember, but again, a single Bait & Switch takes care of the Aember, and a single Gateway to Dis takes care of the board.

Library Access one turn kill decks have phase shift + something like key charge or key abduction, and cannot really be countered, short of killing the nepenthe seeds as soon as they appear.  Even then, they can be delayed with cards like Control the Weak.  But many people that talk about these decks being a problem overestimate how common they are, because they don't understand that Phase Shift is required.

It sounds extremely exhausting to be you...     

 

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10 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

Not as much of an issue anymore, since restringuntus + control the weak no longer locks the opponent out of any house. The new rules changed the interaction such that can't overrules must, so either you choose the same house for both and restringuntus locks, or you choose a different house with CTW and that is the house they must choose.

But witch of the eye, dominator, and control the weak can be enough, especially if you can trick them into having one house in hand.

Has an official FAQ been released recently?

 

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