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Blail Blerg

Initiative/Ps should have been 1-5

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

You think this is a valid point, but its really not. 

Uh, OK.  Let's do our best to add some validity to the entire thread. 

I suspect they collapsed the PS 1-9 to IN 1-6 because it retains 3 tiers of novice/veteran/ace while dropping out one level within each of the brackets to trim things down.

I suspect that PS was 1-9 for the same reason: 3 x 3, because otherwise why not go for the more "logical" base 10.

Which could have collapsed into your perfect 1-5.

But alas, no one ever asked us, so 

Image result for monty python silly place

 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Initiative could probably be collapsed to four tiers without sacrificing a lot in terms of gameplay. i5 and i6 are distinctly different and that's important, but honestly i1 and i2 merging and i3 and i4 merging doesn't change much. I'm pretty sure @Marinealver said something along those lines in a different thread a while back.

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22 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Initiative could probably be collapsed to four tiers without sacrificing a lot in terms of gameplay. i5 and i6 are distinctly different and that's important, but honestly i1 and i2 merging and i3 and i4 merging doesn't change much. I'm pretty sure @Marinealver said something along those lines in a different thread a while back.

I would agree mostly with what you say, particularly that I3 & I4 are virtually indistinguishable and could be a single Initiative, but I do see value in separating I1 & I2 in the context where you want blockers etc.

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2 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

I would agree mostly with what you say, particularly that I3 & I4 are virtually indistinguishable and could be a single Initiative, but I do see value in separating I1 & I2 in the context where you want blockers etc.

Oh, yeah, I think it's good where it is honestly, I just meant that I think it works ok with any number of tiers between 4-6

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Initiative should've been red, black, blue, green and white cubes. Also, two cones - one is brown and one is yellow.  You spend your cube to determine what order you go in, cones go first except green cubes which go first instead.  No wait, it should be rock, paper, scissors. Yes, definitely greek characters like Alpha, Beta.

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2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Who the **** counts to six (and then to seven)? Silly design is silly. Also, tighter PS has been good in 2.0

1-5 as normal PS, 0 and 6 as the two super outliers. 

When was the last time you saw a five-sided die?

Not to mention, six is an incredibly useful number, being divisible by both 2 and 3, so you can group stuff in two groups of three or three groups of two.  Your silly primes are all-or-nothing.

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

. Also, tighter PS has been good in 2.0

 

Ummm... a lot of people have been saying that tighter bidding has significantly increased the need for a bid and the advantage of moving last.   Now, I think there are additional reasons, but most critical analysis I’ve seen has said the opposite of “compressed PS/Initiative” has helped.

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I1: generics of freighters and disposable filler ships
I2: fighter generics
I3: talent slots appear, elite generics 
I4: generic super-elites, fighter sub-aces, freighter 
I5: elite uniques
I6: unique super-elites

(there's plenty of exceptions, yes, but that's the broad strokes)

I like it.

Right now it's kinda buried under how I5/6 heavy the meta is (for now??). But just like there's an I5/6 battle, there's also an I3/4 battle, if enough of those pilots were good enough for it to matter. At I4, the Fang Skull Squadron Pilot, T-70 Black Squadron Ace, and Silencer First Order Test Pilot are actually pretty elite, moving after every other generic in Hyperspace. At I3 is where most of the generics start to have Talent slots, which is another important threshold. Most fighter platforms have their lowest pilot at I2, so that's a crowded level, but some of the larger/bulkier ships - or the more cheap, disposable ones - have their lowest at I1, which makes stuff like the I2 TIE Advanced move after the I1 generic Falcon, which is neat.

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5 hours ago, AlexW said:

a lot of people have been saying that tighter bidding has significantly increased the need for a bid and the advantage of moving last.

I suspect the lack of Veteran Instincts makes a bid more important.

Anyway @Blail Blerg I see the init 6 pilots as having Veteran Instincts built in so from a certain point of view the standard range is 1-5 (no explanation for init 0 though 😂).

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1 hour ago, Sasajak said:

I suspect the lack of Veteran Instincts makes a bid more important.

Anyway @Blail Blerg I see the init 6 pilots as having Veteran Instincts built in so from a certain point of view the standard range is 1-5 (no explanation for init 0 though 😂).

Lol. I like how eXTrA FFG had to be with the Null FO. 7 when unscathed, 0 when damaged. They couldn't settle for 1. It had to be zero. 

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1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Don’t you mean the lack of VI makes it so we see a few other talents on the table from time to time?

Even though my brother and I are still playing 1.0, we have agreed to ban VI and Adaptability just so we stop with the lazy build PS war.  It's been fun to try out the other EPTs!!

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1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Don’t you mean the lack of VI makes it so we see a few other talents on the table from time to time?

No, I was commenting on the assertion made that there is an increased need for a bid and proposed that the reason why maybe the removal of VI.  However, I don’t disagree with your line of reasoning that removing VI also opened up the talent slot.

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15 hours ago, AlexW said:

Ummm... a lot of people have been saying that tighter bidding has significantly increased the need for a bid and the advantage of moving last.   Now, I think there are additional reasons, but most critical analysis I’ve seen has said the opposite of “compressed PS/Initiative” has helped.

If people are blaming that on compressed Initiative, then they don't understand the problem.

The issue is the absence of Veteran Instincts or Adaptability, the continued prevalence of strong pilot abilities at I5 and the utility of powerful ordnance like Proton Torpedoes that require a lock and therefore benefit extremely from moving later. 

All compressing Initiative has done is cut out the chaff in the PS 4-7 region from 1e. There simply wasn't enough difference in how those pilots behaved to be worth that level of granularity, and people are even arguing that's still the case for I3 and 4 anyway.

I'm not saying I'm sad to see VI go, just that bids being more important was always going to be a consequence of activation order and the one sided benefits of moving last and shooting first. 

The only way to remove bidding entirely would be to make Initiative massively granular - to the point that there would basically be a slot for each pilot. Something like a 1-99 range where you'd have Vader on 99, Han on 98, Fel on 96, Wedge on 95, Dengar on 88, Luke on 83, Redline on 74 etc.  

But that would be incredibly tedious. It would also make formation flying absurdly difficult for anything but all generic lists.

Edited by GuacCousteau

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The question of if PS compression is causing the high bid is a good one. Let's follow up on that. 

I'm going to post a counter possibility. In the case of Soontir Whisper Redline, these ships are so effective and already get all the upgrades they need that a 23 point Tie is rather useless and underpowered for the list. It seems like synergistic mods are still currently better than more bodies by a large amount. The other places a very large bid is used (other than ace +filler list) is for 2ship large + ace. 

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