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matt.sucharski

Vulture Launching (from rocks)

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On 1/15/2019 at 1:00 AM, Hiemfire said:

 

Hiemfire's linking service... 😀

Article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/8/seize-the-galaxy/

Closed:

swz29_struts-closed.png

Open:

swz29_struts-open.png

While struts are open they flat out Ignore obstacles at range 0 of them.

Big BUT here:

After you execute the maneuver, you flip the card before executing an action, so you have to have one side clear to perform the barrel roll because after flipping the card you don´t longer ignore obstacles at range 0!!

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2 minutes ago, Taiowaa said:

Big BUT here:

After you execute the maneuver, you flip the card before executing an action, so you have to have one side clear to perform the barrel roll because after flipping the card you don´t longer ignore obstacles at range 0!!

It is something that is expected to errataed since if that how it is supposed to work then the entire card (both front and back) is nothing more than an insultingly long way of saying that the upgrade does nothing...

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You are on the rock, struts open. You dial anything but a 2 forward, skip the execute, the move on to perform action, including a barrel roll. Struts are open, so you ignore the rock while barrel rolling. Now you're off the rock. Next turn you execute whatever is on your dial that turn, because you're no longer at range zero of a rock. Then after executing, flip to closed and move to the perform action step. 

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3 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

You are on the rock, struts open. You dial anything but a 2 forward, skip the execute, the move on to perform action, including a barrel roll. Struts are open, so you ignore the rock while barrel rolling. Now you're off the rock. Next turn you execute whatever is on your dial that turn, because you're no longer at range zero of a rock. Then after executing, flip to closed and move to the perform action step. 

Yep I read it that way as well. 

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2 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

You are on the rock, struts open. You dial anything but a 2 forward, skip the execute, the move on to perform action, including a barrel roll. Struts are open, so you ignore the rock while barrel rolling. Now you're off the rock. Next turn you execute whatever is on your dial that turn, because you're no longer at range zero of a rock. Then after executing, flip to closed and move to the perform action step. 

What they are talking about is that the closed side says "While you execute a maneuver" resulting in the struts opening before full execution of the maneuver, and the open side states "After you execute a maneuver, flip this card." resulting in the configuration nullifying itself. It is something that most likely will be errataed.

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22 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

What they are talking about is that the closed side says "While you execute a maneuver" resulting in the struts opening before full execution of the maneuver, and the open side states "After you execute a maneuver, flip this card." resulting in the configuration nullifying itself. It is something that most likely will be errataed.

I understand, but I didn't think that's what @Taiowaa was talking about. I am going to assume that the card will turn out to work as it seems like it was intended to. I think we are all going to assume that. 

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16 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

What they are talking about is that the closed side says "While you execute a maneuver" resulting in the struts opening before full execution of the maneuver, and the open side states "After you execute a maneuver, flip this card." resulting in the configuration nullifying itself. It is something that most likely will be errataed.

The configuration doesn't nullify itself. Where is that reading coming from? "After you execute a maneuver" is different than "While you execute a maneuver." The ship doesn't do a 2-straight from a rock or otherwise end up off the rock with struts open, do a maneuver, and then not close the struts. All the checks the ship might do with struts closed occur before "after you execute a maneuver."

With struts open the triggers for opening the struts via the text on the closed side are bypassed. You don't do any of those checks because that side of the card is not active.

Are players looking at the checks from the closed side of "while you execute a maneuver" as "going back in time" to determine if they can open the struts? i.e. a player doesn't determine what happened "while you execute a maneuver" till "after you execute a maneuver." So players then want to say a "after you execute a maneuver" trigger goes back in time to check for things that occurred "while you execute a maneuver?" 

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12 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The configuration doesn't nullify itself. Where is that reading coming from? "After you execute a maneuver" is different than "While you execute a maneuver." The ship doesn't do a 2-straight from a rock or otherwise end up off the rock with struts open, do a maneuver, and then not close the struts. All the checks the ship might do with struts closed occur before "after you execute a maneuver."

With struts open the triggers for opening the struts via the text on the closed side are bypassed. You don't do any of those checks because that side of the card is not active.

Are players looking at the checks from the closed side of "while you execute a maneuver" as "going back in time" to determine if they can open the struts? i.e. a player doesn't determine what happened "while you execute a maneuver" till "after you execute a maneuver." So players then want to say a "after you execute a maneuver" trigger goes back in time to check for things that occurred "while you execute a maneuver?" 

Run the process of the config starting with it closed.

swz29_struts-closed.png

This part happens while a maneuver is executed. So if a Vulture equipped with this config ends its maneuver on an asteroid or debris cloud (the requirement in the rules to qualify for Overlapping) and there is at most 1 other friendly on that obstacle the card may be  flipped.

Now for the flip side of the card:

swz29_struts-open.png

Last statement of this side states "After you execute a maneuver, flip this card." The maneuver is not fully executed when the struts are switched from closed to open, but is fully executed after the struts are opened resulting in the card being flipped back to closed. This Configuration needs an Errata pass to function as intended, as written it doesn't function at all.

Edited by Hiemfire

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@Frimmel I believe the idea of the configuration nullifying itself comes from the following scenario:

Struts are closed and the ship is not currently overlapping an obstacle.

Vulture makes a maneuver that causes it to overlap with an asteroid.

The player chooses to flip struts from closed to open, as "while you execute ... if you overlap" has triggered the opportunity. 

Now that struts are open, that new text is in effect. The player completes the "execute maneuver" step they began earlier by checking stress, etc. 

With struts now open, the ship has completed executing a maneuver. The open struts say "after you execute... flip this card."

Now the vulture has landed on a rock, opened the struts, then closed them again. 

The problem this causes is in the following turn.  A maneuver is selected and when the ship activates, its struts are closed, so it never skips the Execute Maneuver step to stay on the astroid. 

Although this problem appears genuine from a RAW perspective, I think all reasonable people can interpret that this is not the intent. We hope a clarification is forthcoming that will align the RAW with the clear RAI. 

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2 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

Although this problem appears genuine from a RAW perspective, I think all reasonable people can interpret that this is not the intent. We hope a clarification is forthcoming that will align the RAW with the clear RAI. 

Soo much this... :)

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1 minute ago, SpiderMana said:

I agree with @matt.sucharski�that while obviously intended to work one way, RAW is a bit off.

All I want to know is how open struts work after barrel-rolling off of an obstacle. They stay open until you complete a maneuver, so I guess you just can�t go to land on a rock on that first maneuver?

You can end that maneuver on a debris cloud, the check for overlap effects is part of executing a maneuver so the negative effects of a debris could are nullified for that maneuver. Asteroids still prevent actions and shooting though.

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4 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I agree with @matt.sucharski that while obviously intended to work one way, RAW is a bit off.

All I want to know is how open struts work after barrel-rolling off of an obstacle. They stay open until you complete a maneuver, so I guess you just can’t go to land on a rock on that first maneuver?

I think the RAW is clear on that, too. Your struts are open, so you ignore that new obstacle (could even the one you were on last turn!). Then, after you execute, you sadly must flip back to closed, so you cannot stay on the new rock. 

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You can end that maneuver on a debris cloud, the check for overlap effects is part of executing a maneuver so the negative effects of a debris could are nullified for that maneuver. Asteroids still prevent actions and shooting though.

Do they?  The open side ignores obstacles at range 0.  Or am I completely misunderstanding the issue?

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Do they?  The open side ignores obstacles at range 0.  Or am I completely misunderstanding the issue?

There are a few issues, so it's hard to know which one you might be confused about. @Hiemfire was referring to a situation where a vulture moves on to an obstacle while struts are open (so ignores it), but then must flip to closed, meaning it is not ignored while performing actions or shooting. 

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Do they?  The open side ignores obstacles at range 0.  Or am I completely misunderstanding the issue?

The sequence that SpiderMana is mentioning starts with the Vulture, struts open, on an obstacle (asteroid or debris cloud). The Vulture barrel rolls off the obstacle. Next turn it performs a maneuver (struts still open since the previous round it skipped the Execute Maneuver step so did not trigger the close condition) ending up on an asteroid. The dice roll check is part of executing the maneuver so that is ignored but the struts close per the trigger after the maneuver is executed and the blocked action and no attacking limitations take effect since it is no longer ignoring the obstacle.

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

The sequence that SpiderMana is mentioning starts with the Vulture, struts open, on an obstacle (asteroid or debris cloud). The Vulture barrel rolls off the obstacle. Next turn it performs a maneuver (struts still open since the previous round it skipped the Execute Maneuver step so did not trigger the close condition) ending up on an asteroid. The dice roll check is part of executing the maneuver so that is ignored but the struts close per the trigger after the maneuver is executed and the blocked action and no attacking limitations take effect since it is no longer ignoring the obstacle.

Ok, thanks.  I missed that the barrel roll was coming a turn before the maneuver.

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, thanks.  I missed that the barrel roll was coming a turn before the maneuver.

No worries, it was more or less a continuation of a previous discussion in this thread. Easy to miss. :)

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9 minutes ago, matt.sucharski said:

I think I would go for the largest asteroids, because they are overall more punishing to enemies. 

I do sometimes bring large rocks, even while flying the VCX or another large, not-so-maneuverable ship, simply because I enjoy the challenge of flying around rocks. It depends on my mood, and I guess somewhat on how likely I feel a Mining Guild TIE swarm is 😅

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I’m digging the struts more and more.

 

O̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶I̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶i̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶u̶t̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶b̶s̶t̶a̶c̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶b̶r̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶o̶i̶d̶,̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶g̶a̶s̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶u̶d̶s̶.̶ ̶ ̶B̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶u̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶e̶u̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶i̶v̶o̶t̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶’̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶d̶e̶b̶r̶i̶s̶.̶ ̶ ̶S̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶o̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶u̶t̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶e̶n̶t̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶a̶s̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶u̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶’̶v̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶b̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶n̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶e̶u̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶u̶t̶o̶m̶a̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶u̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶.̶

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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5 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I’m digging the struts more and more.

 

One thing I noticed is that you can open the struts when you would go through (1) End Your Maneuver On any obstacle (2) Asteroid Or Debris Clouds, whether it be debris, an asteroid, or the new gas clouds.  But the open struts only let you ignore your maneuver and pivot if you’re on an asteroid or debris.  So you could open the struts when entering a gas cloud and ignore them, but you’ve got nothing to grab on to so you take your next maneuver and automatically close your struts again.

(1) An important distinction put in place by how "Overlapping" is explained in the Rules Reference.

(2) Directly stated on the closed side of the struts config. The Gas Clouds still have full effect if the struts equipped Vulture overlaps it with the struts closed and the struts do not open (now moving onto a Gas Cloud with the struts already open, which is possible but takes a bit of planning, would negate any overlap effects that occur during the Execute Maneuver step of the Activation Phase, of which we know of none at the moment).

swz29_struts-closed.png

swz29_struts-open.png

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18 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

One thing I noticed is that you can open the struts when you would go through any obstacle, whether it be debris, an asteroid, or the new gas clouds.  But the open struts only let you ignore your maneuver and pivot if you’re on an asteroid or debris.  So you could open the struts when entering a gas cloud and ignore them, but you’ve got nothing to grab on to so you take your next maneuver and automatically close your struts again.

I will point out because I didn't notice the distinction at first--you do have to land on an obstacle to open your struts. "Moving through" is a completely different keyword in the rules reference. 
(Edit: Ninja'd by @Hiemfire)

But you're right, you can open your struts if you land in a gas cloud. Depending on their effect, I guess it could be useful? I would tend to think Gas Clouds will be particularly harmful for Vultures to fly into, but who knows.

EditEdit: Whoops, yeah, had the card backwards. Thought "Obstacles" was stated on closed side, "Asteroid or Debris Field" stated on open side.

Edited by SpiderMana

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16 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I’m digging the struts more and more.

 

One thing I noticed is that you can open the struts when you would go through any obstacle, whether it be debris, an asteroid, or the new gas clouds.  But the open struts only let you ignore your maneuver and pivot if you’re on an asteroid or debris.  So you could open the struts when entering a gas cloud and ignore them, but you’ve got nothing to grab on to so you take your next maneuver and automatically close your struts again.

I don't think it works that way. Closed struts can only trigger to open on asteroids and debris, and only if you overlap (meaning land on, not move through). 

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