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1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

The RT still gets more out of it's move. Sure you could mimic the move, but retreating a unit gives the opponent more control of the field and better potential of taking control of objectives that would favor your deployment. I'm not saying it's the wrong move, but it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. As for the T-7, it's short range and high comparative cost begs the question of why not use impact grenades at that point. Those devastate any and all armor in range.

By the logic of efficiency you should still be using impact grenades as they're the most efficient. Half of the exhaustables are more expensive than the extra mini in difference. The difference between the T-7 and Flamethrower is 14 pts which is almost enough to equip impacts on three trooper units.

If the HH-12 is in fact averaging 3.125 then your more likely than not going to destroy the weapon on the RT which makes previous points of getting a single shot and destroying it moot.

Yeah they're more efficient than the DLT, but it kills your flexibility. You can't move up in a way that the RT can't just reverse out of your range or push into range 1 without  palp next to them to give an action to the unit. At the point cost your talking about having at this point you can almost have a blank AT-ST , Vader, or two sets of bikes, all of whom do a better job at killing the RT. Leaving yourself to having 4 corp units (Less if you plan to run armies with several IRG or Deathtroopers, one of whom can't deal with armor well) to push isn't much to work with when a quarter (in points) or more of your army is being held up by a singe RT.

 

Probably because Range 2 is still better than Range 1, especially if the target is a Flamer RT; the ion is signicantly better in that the Snowtroopers can move, fire, and recover all in one. 

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9 hours ago, Derrault said:

Probably because Range 2 is still better than Range 1, especially if the target is a Flamer RT; the ion is signicantly better in that the Snowtroopers can move, fire, and recover all in one

And when your at a point that you can move and shoot with the ion rifle, it's not too far of a stretch to move again and throw impact grenades. Even with the ion effect, as good as it is, it's only delaying killing your unit by a round or two. The RT moves up to range one and forces the snowtroopers to likely make a double move then shoot. RT closes distance again and forces the double move then shoot except without the ion rifle at this point. After this point, it is likely that this attack brought the RT to it's wound threshold and something happens to it. The problem with needing to back up or lose the unit outright is that you're still conceding part of the board to the RT player. Even if you kill it before it melts your snowtroopers, it's done the job that it's meant for and has delayed what is likely a more expensive unit.

That's ignoring that the RT can get the ion off the previous round and then has a chance of going first next round in which case it fries the unit.

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9 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

And when your at a point that you can move and shoot with the ion rifle, it's not too far of a stretch to move again and throw impact grenades. Even with the ion effect, as good as it is, it's only delaying killing your unit by a round or two. The RT moves up to range one and forces the snowtroopers to likely make a double move then shoot. RT closes distance again and forces the double move then shoot except without the ion rifle at this point. After this point, it is likely that this attack brought the RT to it's wound threshold and something happens to it. The problem with needing to back up or lose the unit outright is that you're still conceding part of the board to the RT player. Even if you kill it before it melts your snowtroopers, it's done the job that it's meant for and has delayed what is likely a more expensive unit.

That's ignoring that the RT can get the ion off the previous round and then has a chance of going first next round in which case it fries the unit.

RT can’t close the distance with a single move (thank you Ion), and two speed 1 moves are further than a single speed 2 move. In any case, if this is working in tandem with the HH-12, RT is now dead. Yay?

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

RT can’t close the distance with a single move (thank you Ion), and two speed 1 moves are further than a single speed 2 move. In any case, if this is working in tandem with the HH-12, RT is now dead. Yay?

IMG_20190122_165628171.jpg.deba783abc4a093317b6cbb0303bd3bc.jpg 

(I'm aware that they are not snowtroopers and that there isn't a full squad's worth. However, the squad leader is going to want to be the closest when determining range and the rest farther away so it doesn't really matter.)

So the RT can't close from range 2 to range 1 in one move eh? Survey says that's wrong. Also two speed 1 moves are really only significantly better when comparing it to the same size of base unit. And if you're really devoting almost 200 points to killing one RT, then my point still stands as to why you aren't using something more powerful

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Now you've gone and made me get the chart:

Base size: Speed 1| Speed 2 |Speed 3

27mm:  4.06 | 6.16 | 8.36

50mm:  4.97 | 7.07 | 9.27

70mm:  5.76 | 7.86 | 10.06

100mm: 6.94 | 9.04 | 11.24

All movements worked out in inches using measurements found on the forum.

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6 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

IMG_20190122_165628171.jpg.deba783abc4a093317b6cbb0303bd3bc.jpg 

(I'm aware that they are not snowtroopers and that there isn't a full squad's worth. However, the squad leader is going to want to be the closest when determining range and the rest farther away so it doesn't really matter.)

So the RT can't close from range 2 to range 1 in one move eh? Survey says that's wrong. Also two speed 1 moves are really only significantly better when comparing it to the same size of base unit. And if you're really devoting almost 200 points to killing one RT, then my point still stands as to why you aren't using something more powerful

I note the distance is actually in favor of the troopers, they added a small base in distance. Assuming they aren’t racing from a starting line, the RT loses ground in a wild goose chase.

As demonstrated earlier, you’d have to devote 6 attacks by undamaged DLT-19+extra stormtrooper squads to eliminate the AT-RT in the same time span. That’s “devoting” 474 points to the same.

It’s 183 points, or 291 less.

 

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30 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I note the distance is actually in favor of the troopers, they added a small base in distance. Assuming they aren’t racing from a starting line, the RT loses ground in a wild goose chase.

As demonstrated earlier, you’d have to devote 6 attacks by undamaged DLT-19+extra stormtrooper squads to eliminate the AT-RT in the same time span. That’s “devoting” 474 points to the same.

It’s 183 points, or 291 less.

 

According the the chart donated by Cainheul (thanks by the way), the RT can close down to 4.14 in of the snows after 1 move at the max distance the snows can use the ion rifle. Snows now need to retreat in order not to be fried.

Moving away with one move puts them at 8.2 in away. Assuming that they were able to reload the ion rifle last round, they can fire and do damage to the RT (I'll say they did 2 last attack, and to be consistent with their average they do 1 this round) and bring the RT to 3 wounds and reload the rifle. RT Moves up bringing it to .34 in away. Snows now have to move twice to get away from the RT and fire their rifle again and bring it to 5 wounds. Congratulations, you crippled the RT and most likely will kill it with the next shot. In this case you want to damage it as it's unlikely to get an action at all with the ion token on it as well. It took half the game for you to cripple it, and it cost you just over a foot on the board to do so. The snowtroopers did their job and killed the armor. The RT however, also accomplished it's job (punching a hole in your line) by putting a unit so far back that it is unlikely to contribute anything anymore (except in the case of a tie). All of this is also assuming that the snowtroopers got to go between each of the RT's actions and vice versa. If the snowies get multiple actions between the RT, not much changes. If the RT goes between the snowies, then it can flamethrower them and cripple the unit substantially.

At the point where you're spending 183 points to bring down armor, you have to consider some of the other options. 2 bike units (180pts) are slightly cheaper and bring down the RT in two rounds which is still the same average time that the HH-12 and T-7 combo do, but bring more utility beyond hitting armor hard to the table. The AT-ST (195pts) naked is likely to do it in 2 rounds as well, or you can spend a little extra to get the light blaster on it (215pts) and all but guarantee all the while being almost invulnerable to RT fire from everything but the laser cannon. Vader (210pts as he needs saber throw) also should be considered at this point as he eats up everything within range 2 and brings all the benefits of having an extra commander on the field. Heck, why even bother with the HH-12 at this point and just give impacts to the snowtroopers. As demonstrated above their going to be in range 1 for most of the engagement.

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1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

According the the chart donated by Cainheul (thanks by the way), the RT can close down to 4.14 in of the snows after 1 move at the max distance the snows can use the ion rifle. Snows now need to retreat in order not to be fried.

Moving away with one move puts them at 8.2 in away. Assuming that they were able to reload the ion rifle last round, they can fire and do damage to the RT (I'll say they did 2 last attack, and to be consistent with their average they do 1 this round) and bring the RT to 3 wounds and reload the rifle. RT Moves up bringing it to .34 in away. Snows now have to move twice to get away from the RT and fire their rifle again and bring it to 5 wounds. Congratulations, you crippled the RT and most likely will kill it with the next shot. In this case you want to damage it as it's unlikely to get an action at all with the ion token on it as well. It took half the game for you to cripple it, and it cost you just over a foot on the board to do so. The snowtroopers did their job and killed the armor. The RT however, also accomplished it's job (punching a hole in your line) by putting a unit so far back that it is unlikely to contribute anything anymore (except in the case of a tie). All of this is also assuming that the snowtroopers got to go between each of the RT's actions and vice versa. If the snowies get multiple actions between the RT, not much changes. If the RT goes between the snowies, then it can flamethrower them and cripple the unit substantially.

At the point where you're spending 183 points to bring down armor, you have to consider some of the other options. 2 bike units (180pts) are slightly cheaper and bring down the RT in two rounds which is still the same average time that the HH-12 and T-7 combo do, but bring more utility beyond hitting armor hard to the table. The AT-ST (195pts) naked is likely to do it in 2 rounds as well, or you can spend a little extra to get the light blaster on it (215pts) and all but guarantee all the while being almost invulnerable to RT fire from everything but the laser cannon. Vader (210pts as he needs saber throw) also should be considered at this point as he eats up everything within range 2 and brings all the benefits of having an extra commander on the field. Heck, why even bother with the HH-12 at this point and just give impacts to the snowtroopers. As demonstrated above their going to be in range 1 for most of the engagement.

The RT and Snowtroopers by default start at beyond range 4; even if the RT double moves, that barely puts it into range 2; which is enough to fire and move out of range (1.667+ion). HH-12 now fires (3.125), RT has hit its resilience threshold of 4 (4.791667), 50% it loses an action 2/3 of the time, 33% it can’t move and fire (rendering a flamethrower nearly worthless), and 16% of the time the weapon has been removed; in addition to being basically crippled in the first round of engagement, the RT is more than likely 1 damage from being taken off the board.

There’s nothing preventing you from taking both bikes (or whatever) and stormtroopers, so there’s zero opportunity cost there. That being said, troopers have the advantage of not being forced to move out of heavy cover (which can be useful for some objectives), and trooper units can actually claim some objectives, so they have value beyond just removing enemy armor.

Since the opportunity cost is: DLT-19 vs HH-12 or T-7 vs Flamethrower, it’s worth examining on those merits alone (ie point cost difference and value gained).

Snowtrooper Flamethrowers are fine enough, although only useful against infantry and at point blank range, which almost certainly means suffering losses before it gets a chance to fire. Ditto Impact grenades; they’re a fine enough deterrent to make armor stand off at range and fight, and a full unit averages the same as a unit at range 3 with an HH-12...but again, it’s range only 1. You’re basically relying on the good graces of an opponent to simply let you run up without suffering massive casualties. The T-7 at least comes with the benefit of denying movement and fire (which in turn lets the units run past/around the RTs Fire arc, denying them a shot entirely)

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30 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The RT and Snowtroopers by default start at beyond range 4; even if the RT double moves, that barely puts it into range 2; which is enough to fire and move out of range (1.667+ion). HH-12 now fires (3.125), RT has hit its resilience threshold of 4 (4.791667), 50% it loses an action 2/3 of the time, 33% it can’t move and fire (rendering a flamethrower nearly worthless), and 16% of the time the weapon has been removed; in addition to being basically crippled in the first round of engagement, the RT is more than likely 1 damage from being taken off the board.

There’s nothing preventing you from taking both bikes (or whatever) and stormtroopers, so there’s zero opportunity cost there. That being said, troopers have the advantage of not being forced to move out of heavy cover (which can be useful for some objectives), and trooper units can actually claim some objectives, so they have value beyond just removing enemy armor.

Since the opportunity cost is: DLT-19 vs HH-12 or T-7 vs Flamethrower, it’s worth examining on those merits alone (ie point cost difference and value gained).

Snowtrooper Flamethrowers are fine enough, although only useful against infantry and at point blank range, which almost certainly means suffering losses before it gets a chance to fire. Ditto Impact grenades; they’re a fine enough deterrent to make armor stand off at range and fight, and a full unit averages the same as a unit at range 3 with an HH-12...but again, it’s range only 1. You’re basically relying on the good graces of an opponent to simply let you run up without suffering massive casualties. The T-7 at least comes with the benefit of denying movement and fire (which in turn lets the units run past/around the RTs Fire arc, denying them a shot entirely)

Yeah, the RT and snowtrooper unit start well beyond range 4 in most deployments and in most of those it can't get to range 2 to start with it's double move and in the cases it can, why would it close the gap so fast and allow the opponent to get the drop on it? The HH-12 can't (without palp) get to a position where it can fire that the RT won't have time to respond as it can't move and shoot. Furthermore, what kind of opponents have you been playing to give you the idea that they will use both of their actions to run up into your range and let you kill them? You're basically relying on the good graces of an opponent to simply run up into your defensive line and do nothing. With the T-7, you still aren't running past the RT virtually ever. Since you can't run through enemy armor, you have to run around it and you can't make it all the way around the RT base and far enough away that the RT can't just back up into the unit or rotate and put you back in the line of fire.

Except there is something preventing you from taking whatever you want and maxing stormtroopers, it's called the points of a unit. The opportunity cost is literally what value you assign to what you are taking for the points it's worth versus what you could be taking at an equal number of points. The reason mobile corp units are so valuable is because you use them to take objectives, so maxing them gives you the most chance of succeeding. However, running unit(s) backwards or holding them still for the possibility of shooting something that comes along is bad strategy. You're reducing how many units can actually participate in capturing objectives when the opponent is likely not doing so and can pick your advancing units off as they move up while the ones in the back wait for something to get in range.

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2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Yeah, the RT and snowtrooper unit start well beyond range 4 in most deployments and in most of those it can't get to range 2 to start with it's double move and in the cases it can, why would it close the gap so fast and allow the opponent to get the drop on it? The HH-12 can't (without palp) get to a position where it can fire that the RT won't have time to respond as it can't move and shoot. Furthermore, what kind of opponents have you been playing to give you the idea that they will use both of their actions to run up into your range and let you kill them? You're basically relying on the good graces of an opponent to simply run up into your defensive line and do nothing. With the T-7, you still aren't running past the RT virtually ever. Since you can't run through enemy armor, you have to run around it and you can't make it all the way around the RT base and far enough away that the RT can't just back up into the unit or rotate and put you back in the line of fire.

Except there is something preventing you from taking whatever you want and maxing stormtroopers, it's called the points of a unit. The opportunity cost is literally what value you assign to what you are taking for the points it's worth versus what you could be taking at an equal number of points. The reason mobile corp units are so valuable is because you use them to take objectives, so maxing them gives you the most chance of succeeding. However, running unit(s) backwards or holding them still for the possibility of shooting something that comes along is bad strategy. You're reducing how many units can actually participate in capturing objectives when the opponent is likely not doing so and can pick your advancing units off as they move up while the ones in the back wait for something to get in range.

If they don’t expend both actions, they’ll never close range to use the flamethrower, they’ll just die at long range. So, that’s what gave me the idea.

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8 hours ago, Derrault said:

If they don’t expend both actions, they’ll never close range to use the flamethrower, they’ll just die at long range. So, that’s what gave me the idea.

Except that I've already demonstrated that the counter play to the HH-12 is to sit out side of range 4 and lock down a unit (even point trade).

The counter play for the T-7 is to sit at the back end of range 3 and wait for the snows to spend their activation moving up. You can now close that gap in one action and spend the next one blazing away.

Before you start saying that the T-7 and HH-12 are working together to kill an armored unit, I want you to answer why are you bunching up your anti armor on one side of the board and expecting someone to walk into thatinstead of attacking what is likely a more vunerable area where there isn't so much firepower? It's the equivalent of running fleets up with both their actions against palp and letting him get a free attack off.

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