New vehicles!

[MasterShake2 5,184]

1 minute ago, JediPartisan said:

As per the last update of the RRG, pg 51 under Standby: “Troopers and ground vehicles can perform the standby action.”

Question still stands.

Probably was sent to printer before the update was in effect

[thepopemobile100 977]

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Why is the tank not coming with a Standby token?

Just curious

Because unless this is your first and only expansion, you probably have plenty as is that aren't being used

[thepopemobile100 977]

On 1/19/2019 at 9:14 AM, Derrault said:

This means 3 rounds to destroy an RT assuming the unit doesn’t just rally and get rid of the suppression (or a command card nets them a free action, for example. And once in place (range 4 or closer) they don’t need to worry about movement anyway, there’s no incentive

A decent player isn't going to blindly waltz into your range 4 doom circle with an RT though. With the extra speed the RT has, it can push up the field faster and sit just outside of range 4 and lock the stormtroopers in place where you may not want them. If the stormtrooper unit moves a full speed 2 to get in position to fire the rocket next round, the RT can close the remaining gap to range 1 and make the HH-12 useless. If you're running Leia and pull Soldiers of Sorrow and burn HQ Uplink, the RT can get in from beyond range 4 to range 1 in one turn with the same effect noted previously. Using either of these techniques, a flamethrower/rotary gun RT can melt most of a HH-12 unit on the next go.

On 1/19/2019 at 9:14 AM, Derrault said:

3 rounds is still a round faster than the DLT-19 (which is just as suppressable) and for only 10 points

3 rounds too long to kill the RT.  2 rounds and the RT can close and attack at range 1 without anything special

3 hours ago, Derrault said:

When suppressed it can’t move or aim and fire, and 2+ suppression tokens would also risk panic (absent an intervention)

And if the HH-12 unit is constantly suppressed during its activation, it's damage output in general tanks below what the DLT puts out. Even without suppression, the damage difference dries up against infantry when the DLT aims. Something that the HH-12 can't do beyond the first volley consistently without Veers.

Edited January 21, 2019 by thepopemobile100

[thepopemobile100 977]

On 1/18/2019 at 9:48 PM, buckero0 said:

Palp can only make them move and shoot if not exhausted. He's good, but not that good

Palp can make them do that though. You can move them with Palp and then on their action they can reload then shoot as cumbersome (unless this has changed and I don't know it) only restricts moving and shooting in the same action

[JediPartisan 810]

1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Because unless this is your first and only expansion, you probably have plenty as is that aren't being used

So by that logic, they should never print another token.😜

[JediPartisan 810]

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

Probably was sent to printer before the update was in effect

That’s a good point. I hope future models have the correct tokens.

[costi 1,297]

7 hours ago, Derrault said:

When suppressed it can’t move or aim and fire, and 2+ suppression tokens would also risk panic (absent an intervention).

Well, the HH-12 cannot fire at all when suppressed, since your only action is used for reload...

Also, with surge to hit and red dice, the DLT has only 1 blank face, aim is hardly necessary.

And why bring panic into the discussion? Both weapons are carried by Stormtroopers, it's not like the HH-12 squad has a higher morale.

[Shanturin 267]

4 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

If you're running Leia and pull Soldiers of Sorrow and burn HQ Uplink, the RT can get in from beyond range 4 to range 1 in one turn with the same effect noted previously.

Just to clarify, Leia's No Time For Sorrows card (i guess that's the one you had in mind ) does not allow ATRT to perform en extra spd 1 move even if HQ Uplink is utilized, as the card's rule specifies "when a friendly trooper unit is issued an order", and ATRT is no trooper. Works on Wookies and Commandoes though

[Derrault 1,091]

10 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Because unless this is your first and only expansion, you probably have plenty as is that aren't being used

Maybe this was developed before the rules were changed to allow ground vehicles to perform standby?

[Derrault 1,091]

6 hours ago, costi said:

Well, the HH-12 cannot fire at all when suppressed, since your only action is used for reload...

Also, with surge to hit and red dice, the DLT has only 1 blank face, aim is hardly necessary.

And why bring panic into the discussion? Both weapons are carried by Stormtroopers, it's not like the HH-12 squad has a higher morale.

Yes, which is why it would take 3 rounds to destroy the AT-RT: Round 1 attack, Round 2 recover, Round 3 attack.

I brought up panic because at morale 1 you must consistently land 2+ suppression (entirely unlikely if your opponent is Rebel) in the first round. Otherwise 1 goes alway by default, and there’s a reasonable chance the other does two.

I suppose if you really want to proof an HH-12 against this, throw the officer on there instead of the extra trooper, voila problem solved. Courage 2, and Inspiration. They’d have to land 4+ suppression, which is highly unlikely. 

@thepopemobile100 “With the extra speed the RT has, it can push up the field faster and sit just outside of range 4 and lock the stormtroopers in place where you may not want them. If the stormtrooper unit moves a full speed 2 to get in position to fire the rocket next round, the RT can close the remaining gap to range 1 and make the HH-12 useless.”

Standby works here to deter that level of approach. If we’re talking a flamethrower though, forcing them to remain at beyond range 4 means they might be incapable of assisting on an objective. 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Derrault

[thepopemobile100 977]

27 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Standby works here to deter that level of approach. If we’re talking a flamethrower though, forcing them to remain at beyond range 4 means they might be incapable of assisting on an objective

Standby isn't going to work here either though. Presuming that the RT hasn't gone, it can move up and still sit just outside of range 2. Furthermore, depending on how activations go the RT might be able to go first and close the distance to range 1 and make the HH-12 useless (Han can guarantee this outcome provided the RT has HQ Uplink).

37 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Maybe this was developed before the rules were changed to allow ground vehicles to perform standby

My answer wasn't a serious one and I do believe that it's because of the rules change.

6 hours ago, Shanturin said:

Just to clarify, Leia's No Time For Sorrows card (i guess that's the one you had in mind ) does not allow ATRT to perform en extra spd 1 move even if HQ Uplink is utilized, as the card's rule specifies "when a friendly trooper unit is issued an order", and ATRT is no trooper. Works on Wookies and Commandoes though

No idea where I got Soldiers of Sorrow, but thanks for the clarification.

[Derrault 1,091]

2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Standby isn't going to work here either though. Presuming that the RT hasn't gone, it can move up and still sit just outside of range 2. Furthermore, depending on how activations go the RT might be able to go first and close the distance to range 1 and make the HH-12 useless (Han can guarantee this outcome provided the RT has HQ Uplink).

My answer wasn't a serious one and I do believe that it's because of the rules change.

No idea where I got Soldiers of Sorrow, but thanks for the clarification.

So it works to prevent the unit from firing the previous round, every time, and in one specific commander setup (Han + flamers) it can get priority (provided it wasn’t used already of course)

[thepopemobile100 977]

1 minute ago, Derrault said:

So it works to prevent the unit from firing the previous round, every time, and in one specific commander setup (Han + flamers) it can get priority (provided it wasn’t used already of course)

It doesn't even do that well. Both the laser cannon and rotary gun can close the distance to range 3 in one move then shoot making the standby useless. The flamethrower needs to close the distance anyway so it doesn't really suffer from it. I only brought up Han because he can guarantee it. All the other commanders at worst have to bid to go first (except Krennic pushing a 1 pip who almost always wins priority).

[Derrault 1,091]

Just now, thepopemobile100 said:

It doesn't even do that well. Both the laser cannon and rotary gun can close the distance to range 3 in one move then shoot making the standby useless. The flamethrower needs to close the distance anyway so it doesn't really suffer from it. I only brought up Han because he can guarantee it. All the other commanders at worst have to bid to go first (except Krennic pushing a 1 pip who almost always wins priority).

The Laser Cannon and the Rotary don’t present threats in the way the Flamethrower does, though they are equally at risk of the weapons being destroyed by the first shot.

The laser cannon could stand-off at range 4, but that’s a losing fight. And in either case, why is a DLT-19 in a better position for any of the listed scenarios? It would deal far less damage, and have essentially no chance of destroying the weapon.

(Krennic of course doesn’t have access to the RT, so it’s something of a moot point)

[thepopemobile100 977]

5 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The Laser Cannon and the Rotary don’t present threats in the way the Flamethrower does, though they are equally at risk of the weapons being destroyed by the first shot.

The laser cannon could stand-off at range 4, but that’s a losing fight. And in either case, why is a DLT-19 in a better position for any of the listed scenarios? It would deal far less damage, and have essentially no chance of destroying the weapon.

(Krennic of course doesn’t have access to the RT, so it’s something of a moot point)

The Rotary gun after a shot removes your 1 crit a shot average (1.5625 damage after defense to stormtroopers) so you can no longer reliably remove the weapon after one shot. Laser cannon does that too at 1.06 damage after defense to stormtroopers although admittedly it still isn't what you bring the laser cannon for.

The DLT can advance up and then fire. Yeah, it'll take longer but you can at least damage an RT on your terms rather than waiting for it to move into range of your HH-12. With how few corp options there are, it's not uncommon to see 4+ dlt stormtrooper units for the purpose of them ganging up on an RT with a move+shoot since they combined can do it in one turn on average. Is it an action waste? Sure, but it stops the RT from doing much if anything to them in return.

I brought up Krennic because he can almost always force the HH-12 unit to go first before the opponent with the exception of Han

[Derrault 1,091]

32 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

The Rotary gun after a shot removes your 1 crit a shot average (1.5625 damage after defense to stormtroopers) so you can no longer reliably remove the weapon after one shot. Laser cannon does that too at 1.06 damage after defense to stormtroopers although admittedly it still isn't what you bring the laser cannon for.

The DLT can advance up and then fire. Yeah, it'll take longer but you can at least damage an RT on your terms rather than waiting for it to move into range of your HH-12. With how few corp options there are, it's not uncommon to see 4+ dlt stormtrooper units for the purpose of them ganging up on an RT with a move+shoot since they combined can do it in one turn on average. Is it an action waste? Sure, but it stops the RT from doing much if anything to them in return.

I brought up Krennic because he can almost always force the HH-12 unit to go first before the opponent with the exception of Han

Laser cannon into cover deals an average of .375 damage (so, 2/3 times it does nothing)

(cover removes 2, 2 hit ave, .75 crit ave)

Rotary cannon is .625 ave from the crits (regular hits average less than 2, and would be negated entirely by heavy cover on average.)

[buckero0 1,956]

Do you think the 360 anti personnel DLT that the Occupier can mount will have similar dice and keywords as the Stormtrooper version or the Scout trooper version or maybe a mixture of the two? I'm hoping it has range 4 at least, especially since the other side weapon is range 2 making the Arsenal 2 almost useless many times during the game.

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

1 minute ago, buckero0 said:

Do you think the 360 anti personnel DLT that the Occupier can mount will have similar dice and keywords as the Stormtrooper version or the Scout trooper version or maybe a mixture of the two? I'm hoping it has range 4 at least, especially since the other side weapon is range 2 making the Arsenal 2 almost useless many times during the game.

Squinting at the blurry picture (after zooming in to 300%), it looks like Range 1-4, Impact 1. 

[thepopemobile100 977]

17 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Laser cannon into cover deals an average of .375 damage (so, 2/3 times it does nothing)

(cover removes 2, 2 hit ave, .75 crit ave)

Rotary cannon is .625 ave from the crits (regular hits average less than 2, and would be negated entirely by heavy cover on average.)

We already demonstrated that heavy cover is great at increasing the longevity against non blast and sharpshooter attacks. So at best what you've done is create a scenario where 89 points of stormtroopers are sitting outside of range of an 80-90 point vehicle where neither are doing anything. The difference being that the vehicle can't capture objectives and isn't vulnerable to sniper fire and the troops (maybe multiple corp units if you were waiting for the HH-12 to kill the armor) aren't capturing objectives and are still at risk of being chipped away from other 4+ range units. Seems like the RT has it better.

Furthermore, the RT can still sit in range 4 for 1 round and not risk losing it's main gun. It can camp outside of range 3 and then move within range 1 and make the HH-12 useless again. Even the laser cannon can do this if it wants to (it should) as it still has the melee attack.

[buckero0 1,956]

31 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Squinting at the blurry picture (after zooming in to 300%), it looks like Range 1-4, Impact 1. 

I was hoping it would stay the same as the Stormtrooper version. I hope its 2 red dice or a red/black die combo. I think that is the most versatile as well as helping the tank be worth its points.  155 for the weapons it has base is not a deal.  I wish the ATST would be improved more to make it more viable. I'm afraid that we'll see double occupiers but probably never double ATST except for gimmick lists.

Edited January 21, 2019 by buckero0

[thepopemobile100 977]

8 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I was hoping it would stay the same as the Stormtrooper version. I hope its 2 red dice or a red/black die combo. I think that is the most versatile as well as helping the tank be worth its points

I would like it to stay the same as the stormtrooper version as well, but without surge it feels weird to give it the same dice to me

[Copes 225]

On 1/17/2019 at 12:30 PM, werdnaegni said:

Which one are you meaning? I don't actually play the game so if you could tell me the name of the upgrade so I can search it out, that would be helpful. Thanks.

Hard to see the full name - looks like "First Sergeant __________" on the top of the spread with the occupier picture. 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/14/heavy-hitter/

Looks like it adds Tactical 1 - After you perform a standard move action, gain 1 aim token" for 5 points.

[Copes 225]

EDIT: Sorry, double post.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Copes

[Derrault 1,091]

5 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

We already demonstrated that heavy cover is great at increasing the longevity against non blast and sharpshooter attacks. So at best what you've done is create a scenario where 89 points of stormtroopers are sitting outside of range of an 80-90 point vehicle where neither are doing anything. The difference being that the vehicle can't capture objectives and isn't vulnerable to sniper fire and the troops (maybe multiple corp units if you were waiting for the HH-12 to kill the armor) aren't capturing objectives and are still at risk of being chipped away from other 4+ range units. Seems like the RT has it better.

Furthermore, the RT can still sit in range 4 for 1 round and not risk losing it's main gun. It can camp outside of range 3 and then move within range 1 and make the HH-12 useless again. Even the laser cannon can do this if it wants to (it should) as it still has the melee attack.

Potentially, although in doing so it’s dealing zero damage, at which point the Squad can safely double move itself to reset the status quo. Ie if the RT moves first and double moves to get into range 1, that leaves the ball in the Stormtroopers court to mimic the move. Maybe it’s a good idea, maybe not. It would be a good reason to run two of the four squads as HH-12s (or, if you split 3/3 storm/snow; toss in one T-7 Ion, which handles the range 1-2 antics).

Yes, the exhaustibles are a little less than an additional mini more expensive, but they are much more efficient than their counterparts. (The T-7 itself averages 1.15 wounds on an AT-RT; the HH-12 1.5625; the DLT-19 1.04)

A regular stormtrooper/snowtrooper squad deals .520 wounds to an RT: DLT increases this to 1.5625 (increase of 1.0425); T-7 increases to 1.6667 (increase of 1.14667), and HH-12 increases to 3.125 (increase of 2.605!)

For a price increase of less than half again, you get 2.5 (2.49888) times the average wound output, and an increased damage cap because more dice are rolled. That’s point efficiency. Having two of them (and allowing the tactical flexibility to explode an RT in range in one round, before it can do any real damage, is pretty good, again in terms of force protection, and frees us the other 4 units to locate other targets (not the case if you only have DLTs, as on average would require all 6 units to commit to the RT in order to destroy it on the first round. 

If you routinely encounter armor, and you’re running stormtrooper squads with heavies, it makes sense to find the 20 points to make two of those heavies HH-12s. Otherwise you’re going to have to burn more actions and turns to take the armor down, or suffer casualties you wouldn’t have suffered (thus reducing your overall output, which in turn may mean an inability to deal with the non-armor units). 

[thepopemobile100 977]

10 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Potentially, although in doing so it’s dealing zero damage, at which point the Squad can safely double move itself to reset the status quo. Ie if the RT moves first and double moves to get into range 1, that leaves the ball in the Stormtroopers court to mimic the move. Maybe it’s a good idea, maybe not. It would be a good reason to run two of the four squads as HH-12s (or, if you split 3/3 storm/snow; toss in one T-7 Ion, which handles the range 1-2 antics).

Yes, the exhaustibles are a little less than an additional mini more expensive, but they are much more efficient than their counterparts. (The T-7 itself averages 1.15 wounds on an AT-RT; the HH-12 1.5625; the DLT-19 1.04)

A regular stormtrooper/snowtrooper squad deals .520 wounds to an RT: DLT increases this to 1.5625 (increase of 1.0425); T-7 increases to 1.6667 (increase of 1.14667), and HH-12 increases to 3.125 (increase of 2.605!)

For a price increase of less than half again, you get 2.5 (2.49888) times the average wound output, and an increased damage cap because more dice are rolled. That’s point efficiency. Having two of them (and allowing the tactical flexibility to explode an RT in range in one round, before it can do any real damage, is pretty good, again in terms of force protection, and frees us the other 4 units to locate other targets (not the case if you only have DLTs, as on average would require all 6 units to commit to the RT in order to destroy it on the first round. 

If you routinely encounter armor, and you’re running stormtrooper squads with heavies, it makes sense to find the 20 points to make two of those heavies HH-12s. Otherwise you’re going to have to burn more actions and turns to take the armor down, or suffer casualties you wouldn’t have suffered (thus reducing your overall output, which in turn may mean an inability to deal with the non-armor units). 

The RT still gets more out of it's move. Sure you could mimic the move, but retreating a unit gives the opponent more control of the field and better potential of taking control of objectives that would favor your deployment. I'm not saying it's the wrong move, but it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. As for the T-7, it's short range and high comparative cost begs the question of why not use impact grenades at that point. Those devastate any and all armor in range.

By the logic of efficiency you should still be using impact grenades as they're the most efficient. Half of the exhaustables are more expensive than the extra mini in difference. The difference between the T-7 and Flamethrower is 14 pts which is almost enough to equip impacts on three trooper units.

If the HH-12 is in fact averaging 3.125 then your more likely than not going to destroy the weapon on the RT which makes previous points of getting a single shot and destroying it moot.

Yeah they're more efficient than the DLT, but it kills your flexibility. You can't move up in a way that the RT can't just reverse out of your range or push into range 1 without  palp next to them to give an action to the unit. At the point cost your talking about having at this point you can almost have a blank AT-ST , Vader, or two sets of bikes, all of whom do a better job at killing the RT. Leaving yourself to having 4 corp units (Less if you plan to run armies with several IRG or Deathtroopers, one of whom can't deal with armor well) to push isn't much to work with when a quarter (in points) or more of your army is being held up by a singe RT.