New vehicles!

[Derrault 1,091]

@thepopemobile100

"Yes the cards are relevant because one unit has them and one doesn't regardless of how good they are. That's like me saying armor is irrelevant because better cheaper units have it.

Potential max damage is fine, but it seldom happens and certainly not when you need it most. By that same argument, the rebels with Z-6 should be the best unit in the game because they are capable of throwing out more damage then then almost every unit."

The key difference being that a Z-6 isn't even close to the average hits of a T-47 (1.5 hit/crit results on 6 white dice without surge vs. 3.75 on the T-47; Luke's 2 red dice average 1.75 hits, which is great. But still less than the 1.875 average wounds from the T-47. That Luke only has two dice and no sharpshooter means he does .5 damage against a target in heavy cover vs .875 from the T-47; so, regardless, his shooting is vastly inferior from inferior range.)

As for the defense:
"And now you go back to averages when they suit you best. Yeah T-47 takes less damage per attack on average, but it's also in a position where it's getting shot at more frequently and by more units which is going to bring it to the magical 7.7 attacks sooner. Your numbers for Luke are also for him in the open and it also doesn't account for cover from suppression. Assuming Luke doesn't have any cover or dodge (despite 2 of his cards giving him a free dodge and reflexes giving him a third so he should have a dodge token in half of the rounds), we'll round that first shot to two damage for simplicity. Luke now has light cover and next shot deals on average 1.3125 damage (rounded to 1). Each shot after that has averages to .8125 which is even less likely to take damage than the T-47. This also affects his time to kill to being over 6 attacks. The T-47 hits damage threshold sooner than that and is 1-2 hits from being destroyed. If Luke is in heavy from the start by the way (because why would anyone have their commander out in the open in the middle of the field) it takes 7.6 attacks without a dodge to kill Luke and it jumps to 8.6 with one behind heavy cover. So no, the T-47 really isn't all that much survivable compared to Luke in in the open and is equal to or worse if Luke has good conditions."

I'm using averages because their defense depends on the enemies targeting them (offensively they're going to be throwing different numbers of dice, so the range is actually an important question, especially for people who might decide to take a long shot).

Your math is off, every shot after luke has cover 1 from supression is 1.3125 damage (demonstrated below).

First, here's the offensive hit/crit chances for those stormtroopers (setting aside, for the moment, re-rolls, which would favor the T-47 anyway as more results are dangerous to Luke than to the T-47; thanks armor!; also setting aside Snowtroopers which deal 1.25 wounds to Luke and .5 wounds to the T-47)

ws = .25 hit, .125 crit
rs = .75 hit, .125 crit

2x rs = 1.5 hit, .25 crit
5x ws = 1.25 hit, .625 crit

total: 2.75 hit, .875 crit (3.625 combined)

dodge/cover/armor negate regular hits only.
impact converts remaining regular hits only.

Let's do our best and worst case scenarios for Luke and the T-47 (6 full stormtrooper DLT-19 units in one round), if it sets your mind at ease:

Worst case scenarios for Luke: No cover, no dodge token, 6 full Stormtrooper unit attacks in one round.

1st Attack: 3.625 hit/crits, Luke uses a red die, for 50% save = 1.8125 wounds. 1 Suppression gained.
2nd: 3.625 hit/crits, 1 regular hit negated by cover 1; 50% save = 1.3125 wounds. 1 Suppression gained. 
3rd-6th = 1.3125 hits + 1 suppression token.
Total: 8.375 wounds (Luke is dead by the 5th attack on average), 6 suppression tokens (enough that he panics)

Worst case scenario for the T-47: no dodge token, 6 full stormtrooper unit attacks in one round.

1st Attack through 6th: 2.75 hit, .875 crit (cover 1 removes one regular hit, impact 1 converts one regular hit to a crit, armor removes remaining hits); 1.875 crits with 33% save = 1.25 wounds per attack. Total: 7.5 damage. T-47 dies on the 6th attack, absorbing one more attack than Luke.

The best case scenario for each is of course: They aren't exposed to enemy fire at all, because we agree, it's either a deliberate choice to expose the unit to fire, or not.

The distinction here is that Luke being less maneuverable (and reliant on melee) pretty much HAS to subject himself to the threat of enemy fire. The T-47 with its speed rarely if ever has to do the same. And even if it does, it's able to absorb more damage in the worst case scenario.

"As shown above, T-47 is literally not twice as survivable to direct fire. The AT-RT doesn't need cover 1 to be similarly protected as melee is only dangerous with lightsabers to armor (except saber throw which T-47 is also vulnerable to), who cares about blast against armor as you still need crits to actually do damage which already ignore cover. The only argument that you presented that I can't refute is speed 3 and free movement."

You've certainly demonstrated that a player can temporarily improve Luke's survival chances, but that itself comes at a cost: Playing a specific card, activating before enemy units to get dodge and use a card, which itself requires another action to refresh (The flip side of all this is that Luke can't get any real damage out there until he leaves cover, if he doesn't he basically does nothing), but his normal didn't do anything survivability is significantly less (dead in 3.3 attacks vs dead in 5.6...not quite double, sure, but close enough that you won't really notice the difference between double or a tiny bit less.)

AT-RTs lack the extra speed and free move action to avoid enemy fire, so there's that, they also have 1 less hit point, so there's that, and cover 1 on the airspeeder means that Vader throws 3 dice, which, unless all three crit (a .02% chance), prevents a point of damage. AT-RT may die in as little as one hit from Vader's melee, or two saber throws, whereas the T-47 requires at least 3 saber throws, even Vader rolls natural crits on all dice. Oh, and the AT-RT doesn't surge their defense, so they only save 1/6 instead of 2/6. 

They both may have armor, but cover 1 really does matter when the enemy unit has Impact, as vader does (and surge to defense matters in all cases where the attack doesn't have Pierce)

"Your argument against Luke boils down to: If you run him badly he won't last 

Yeah no kidding, that's user error, not a fault of the unit"

Wrong. 
My argument is that when you run them both well, the T-47 is better, and it is.

Just for giggles, here's what happens if those Stormtroopers are running an HH-12

5x ws = 1.25 hit, .625 crit
3x bs = 1.5 hit, .375 crit
total: 2.75 hit, 1 crit
Impact 3 means 4 crit (after allowing for dodge/cover removals)

AT-RT dies in 2 attacks.
Luke Skywalker dies in 3.2
T-47 dies in 3.8

Oh well.

[DarkTrooperZero 304]

There's more to the game than just maths. Some of Luke's pros that the T47 can't get.

Brings high courage value for other troops around him 

Brings great command cards 

Small model so easily hidden

Can hide in combat from shooting

Doesn't have his lightsaber broken when suffering damage

Doesn't fly into things and explode

Can control 100% what direction he moves in

Jedi mind tricks

Force push

Etc 

[thepopemobile100 977]

40 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Your math is off, every shot after luke has cover 1 from supression is 1.3125 damage (demonstrated below).

First, here's the offensive hit/crit chances for those stormtroopers (setting aside, for the moment, re-rolls, which would favor the T-47 anyway as more results are dangerous to Luke than to the T-47; thanks armor!; also setting aside Snowtroopers which deal 1.25 wounds to Luke and .5 wounds to the T-47)

ws = .25 hit, .125 crit
rs = .75 hit, .125 crit

2x rs = 1.5 hit, .25 crit
5x ws = 1.25 hit, .625 crit

total: 2.75 hit, .875 crit (3.625 combined)

dodge/cover/armor negate regular hits only.
impact converts remaining regular hits only.

Let's do our best and worst case scenarios for Luke and the T-47 (6 full stormtrooper DLT-19 units in one round), if it sets your mind at ease:

Worst case scenarios for Luke: No cover, no dodge token, 6 full Stormtrooper unit attacks in one round.

1st Attack: 3.625 hit/crits, Luke uses a red die, for 50% save = 1.8125 wounds. 1 Suppression gained.
2nd: 3.625 hit/crits, 1 regular hit negated by cover 1; 50% save = 1.3125 wounds. 1 Suppression gained. 
3rd-6th = 1.3125 hits + 1 suppression token.
Total: 8.375 wounds (Luke is dead by the 5th attack on average), 6 suppression tokens (enough that he panics)

I just checked the RRG to see if you were given heavy cover from 2 suppression. I had that wrong and I'll admit to that.

49 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The distinction here is that Luke being less maneuverable (and reliant on melee) pretty much HAS to subject himself to the threat of enemy fire. The T-47 with its speed rarely if ever has to do the same. And even if it does, it's able to absorb more damage in the worst case scenario

The T-47 also has to put itself in range of getting shot as the main gun is range 3 and the rear gun is 2. All the common sources of impact from the empire are range 4 (DLT, HH-12, AT-ST, Maximum Firepower) so it still has the same risks as Luke does trying to get close. Even if it can go from beyond range 4 to range 3 (it can), it cannot get back out of it with a second move.

 

56 minutes ago, Derrault said:

AT-RTs lack the extra speed and free move action to avoid enemy fire, so there's that, they also have 1 less hit point, so there's that, and cover 1 on the airspeeder means that Vader throws 3 dice, which, unless all three crit (a .02% chance), prevents a point of damage. AT-RT may die in as little as one hit from Vader's melee, or two saber throws, whereas the T-47 requires at least 3 saber throws, even Vader rolls natural crits on all dice. Oh, and the AT-RT doesn't surge their defense, so they only save 1/6 instead of 2/6

Yeah,  but naked AT-RT is also less than a third the cost (I'll say half because they almost never see use naked). For 5 points more, I can have 2 laser cannon AT-RTs that have a combined average damage that is higher, has longer range, and are more effective against armor. They also have a combined 12 hits that take an average of 14 hits that bypass armor to kill. Onto Vader, yeah cover 1 matters then a lot more than when being shot at most of the time. The odds of Vader killing an AT-RT in one hit is even less than him putting 3 damage on the T-47 (not impossible, but no one would rely on it). Same with saber throw in 2 attacks ,17.8% is something that happens, but still too infrequent to be relied upon. 3 throws? Absolutely the AT-RT is probably dead. No the AT-RT doesn't have surge, and I've seen enough trooper units get decimated from a good role to know that 1/3 is still abysmally bad.

 

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

My argument is that when you run them both well, the T-47 is better, and it is

The T-47 has range (not damage), movement and defense better than Luke. I still don't think that makes it better as a whole when it can't provide support to the rest of your army, namely buffing courage. The part with the HH-12 is fun, but doesn't really add or detract from the argument

[Derrault 1,091]

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

There's more to the game than just maths. Some of Luke's pros that the T47 can't get.

Brings high courage value for other troops around him 

Brings great command cards 

Small model so easily hidden

Can hide in combat from shooting

Doesn't have his lightsaber broken when suffering damage

Doesn't fly into things and explode

Can control 100% what direction he moves in

Jedi mind tricks

Force push

Etc 

Luke is slower, so he’s going to have a harder time moving from line of sight blocking location to sight blocking location; the T-47 doesn’t have a risk of losing its weapon until 5 damage; at which point it’s fairly likely Luke is dead.

The T-47 doesn’t fly into things unless the user screws up (and on its compulsory move it displaces and suppresses troops, something Luke can’t do), and that (and direction choice) are easily determined with a tiny bit of foresight.

Force Powers aren’t free; they cost points (include Force Reflexes alone and he costs more than the T-47 for only a minor bump in survivability). By comparison the Ground Buzzer is only 20 points for 4 black dice! Twice as efficient as buying extra troopers for 4 different units (also, more resilient to damage, and requiring fewer activations to get value out of).

@thepopemobile100 1/3 is 50% better than 1/6. And the two AT-RTs have more hit points, but they do also require more activations, and they throw the same number of dice (which isn’t a good thing; more dice in a single attack work to minimize the value of cover; spreading it out over two attacks means Cover effects get double the value, while also putting the AT-RTs at risk of being destroyed between activations. Furthermore, the weapons can be destroyed after only 4 damage, instead of 5; damage which is more easily dealt owing to the lack of Cover and the worse defense save! An HH-12 stormtrooper detachment averages exactly the right number of crits to potentially knock the gun out in a single shot; on average it’d take a little more...but still that’s pretty likely). 

[DarkTrooperZero 304]

At this stage I legit think you are a playtester who got all bent out of shape because 99% of people think the T47 is under powered/over costed and you are trying to save face.

[Derrault 1,091]

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

At this stage I legit think you are a playtester who got all bent out of shape because 99% of people think the T47 is under powered/over costed and you are trying to save face.

If I eyerolled as hard as this deserves I’d dislocate an eyeball.

Face saving behavior is calling the T-47 bad when the fault lies solely with the user.

The entire point behind this was that, if Someone wants to claim the T-47 is bad, they have to be just as comfortable calling Luke bad, because the T-47 is, point for point, a better unit.

[devin.pike.1989 1,546]

I have always considered the t-47 to be just as useful as any other unit in the game.   I have two and i love them!

 

[thepopemobile100 977]

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

1/3 is 50% better than 1/6. And the two AT-RTs have more hit points, but they do also require more activations, and they throw the same number of dice (which isn’t a good thing; more dice in a single attack work to minimize the value of cover; spreading it out over two attacks means Cover effects get double the value, while also putting the AT-RTs at risk of being destroyed between activations. Furthermore, the weapons can be destroyed after only 4 damage, instead of 5; damage which is more easily dealt owing to the lack of Cover and the worse defense save! An HH-12 stormtrooper detachment averages exactly the right number of crits to potentially knock the gun out in a single shot; on average it’d take a little more...but still that’s pretty likely). 

Requiring multiple activations isn't inherently bad though; multiple units give you more control of the board and more opportunities to deal damage. The Laser cannon is an anti tank weapon that isn't very effective against infantry (go figure) and I only used that as an example because it threw the same number of total dice. I could easily say that they are using any of the three weapon options. I'd say the rotary gun is just as good as the main gun of the T-47 despite rolling a die less as the value of crit surge makes up for it. The flamethrower, while I'm not personally a fan, doubles the dice of the T-47 in ideal situations. Spreading from those two weapons across cheaper platforms is now bad despite doing roughly the same or more damage each while also taking longer to kill? Half of your argument was that the T-47 was tough to kill, and it's not even best in class at it for the points it costs.

30 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The entire point behind this was that, if Someone wants to claim the T-47 is bad, they have to be just as comfortable calling Luke bad, because the T-47 is, point for point, a better unit.

Back on topic, I still don't agree with you. I'll admit that Luke is much worse if IRG are common to play against, but that doesn't make him worse than the T-47.

The crux of my issue with the T-47 is that it's not the best at almost anything for it's points. It's still out done in defense by a pair of AT-RTs as they still take longer to kill outright as well as Luke, Leia, and 6 person rebel trooper unit with dodge behind heavy cover. Offense? Beaten by a single AT-RT with a flamethrower, rebel troopers with Z-6, Fleet Troopers with either heavy, Luke in melee, dish turret with barrage generator, wookies with bowcaster at range or melee (without tenacity). Mobility? Most of the units listed are significantly cheaper and there's an argument to be made about having multiple units that can attack in different directions being better than putting a quarter of your list in one basket. The T-47 only has speed going for it.

Because Luke still has utility with his cards and courage bubble, something that the T-47 lacks completely, you can't claim the T-47 better as a whole when it doesn't have the utility that Luke does

[Derrault 1,091]

2 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Requiring multiple activations isn't inherently bad though; multiple units give you more control of the board and more opportunities to deal damage. The Laser cannon is an anti tank weapon that isn't very effective against infantry (go figure) and I only used that as an example because it threw the same number of total dice. I could easily say that they are using any of the three weapon options. I'd say the rotary gun is just as good as the main gun of the T-47 despite rolling a die less as the value of crit surge makes up for it. The flamethrower, while I'm not personally a fan, doubles the dice of the T-47 in ideal situations. Spreading from those two weapons across cheaper platforms is now bad despite doing roughly the same or more damage each while also taking longer to kill? Half of your argument was that the T-47 was tough to kill, and it's not even best in class at it for the points it costs.

Back on topic, I still don't agree with you. I'll admit that Luke is much worse if IRG are common to play against, but that doesn't make him worse than the T-47.

The crux of my issue with the T-47 is that it's not the best at almost anything for it's points. It's still out done in defense by a pair of AT-RTs as they still take longer to kill outright as well as Luke, Leia, and 6 person rebel trooper unit with dodge behind heavy cover. Offense? Beaten by a single AT-RT with a flamethrower, rebel troopers with Z-6, Fleet Troopers with either heavy, Luke in melee, dish turret with barrage generator, wookies with bowcaster at range or melee (without tenacity). Mobility? Most of the units listed are significantly cheaper and there's an argument to be made about having multiple units that can attack in different directions being better than putting a quarter of your list in one basket. The T-47 only has speed going for it.

Because Luke still has utility with his cards and courage bubble, something that the T-47 lacks completely, you can't claim the T-47 better as a whole when it doesn't have the utility that Luke does

The problem with multiple activations is that they allow enemy activations in between. The problem with the AT-RT weapon systems is that they’re either short range (and powerful, but the AT-RT is slow enough that anti-armor could and should damage it before it can fire) or longer range and weak against troopers because of a lack of dice.

The rotary cannon does hit the middle ground, but it’s basically anti-infantry more than anything else. An AT-ST (or HH-12, if anyone runs it) will eat its lunch without breaking a sweat. The 47 at least has the speed and actions to evade fire if they needed to; there’s no such discretion for the AT-RT.

Edit: In regards to speed, two three speed moves actually traverses approximately Range 4, in part because the 47 has a huge base. Including range 3, it’s more than capable of closing distance to engage longer range enemies. (Again, not something Luke can do; he’s generally forced to seek cover on the way or be destroyed before he can engage in melee)

Edited January 18, 2019 by Derrault

[thepopemobile100 977]

8 hours ago, Derrault said:

The problem with multiple activations is that they allow enemy activations in between. The problem with the AT-RT weapon systems is that they’re either short range (and powerful, but the AT-RT is slow enough that anti-armor could and should damage it before it can fire) or longer range and weak against troopers because of a lack of dice.

I'm not denying any of that, however I will state that the need to destroy the flamerthrower AT-RT is pressing enough that it acts as a decoy for other units to capture objectives, kill enemy units, or stall. Even if it closes in range, it still served the purpose of being a really good distraction. Again for the cost of a single T-47, you can field two AT-RTs which do a much better job at soaking fire.

8 hours ago, Derrault said:

The rotary cannon does hit the middle ground, but it’s basically anti-infantry more than anything else. An AT-ST (or HH-12, if anyone runs it) will eat its lunch without breaking a sweat. The 47 at least has the speed and actions to evade fire if they needed to; there’s no such discretion for the AT-RT.

Edit: In regards to speed, two three speed moves actually traverses approximately Range 4, in part because the 47 has a huge base. Including range 3, it’s more than capable of closing distance to engage longer range enemies. (Again, not something Luke can do; he’s generally forced to seek cover on the way or be destroyed before he can engage in melee)

An anti-infantry gun in a game where infantry has to do most everything to earn points isn't a bad thing. You also demonstrated previously that the HH-12 does good against all rebel armor and the T-47 is also vulnerable to it. Same with fire from the AT-ST.

I'm not doubting the T-47's speed or it's ability to close to firing range. While it can absolutely get from beyond range 4 to range 3 in one move, it can't get back out of it again in the same round. You have to subject yourself to enemy fire for at least 1 round (2 if orders are unfavorable next round). Depending on what the other side has, it's a real possibility that you just lost the speeder. Luke can't move that fast, but with how much tall LOS blocking terrain you'd need on a field to be able to hide the T-47 from fire that's in range it it's not much of a stretch for him to get in range.

[Derrault 1,091]

8 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I'm not denying any of that, however I will state that the need to destroy the flamerthrower AT-RT is pressing enough that it acts as a decoy for other units to capture objectives, kill enemy units, or stall. Even if it closes in range, it still served the purpose of being a really good distraction. Again for the cost of a single T-47, you can field two AT-RTs which do a much better job at soaking fire.

An anti-infantry gun in a game where infantry has to do most everything to earn points isn't a bad thing. You also demonstrated previously that the HH-12 does good against all rebel armor and the T-47 is also vulnerable to it. Same with fire from the AT-ST.

I'm not doubting the T-47's speed or it's ability to close to firing range. While it can absolutely get from beyond range 4 to range 3 in one move, it can't get back out of it again in the same round. You have to subject yourself to enemy fire for at least 1 round (2 if orders are unfavorable next round). Depending on what the other side has, it's a real possibility that you just lost the speeder. Luke can't move that fast, but with how much tall LOS blocking terrain you'd need on a field to be able to hide the T-47 from fire that's in range it it's not much of a stretch for him to get in range.

I mean, it only takes a couple of pieces with slightly greater than height 1 to block visibility substantially (a few houses for example)

And the HH-12 averages 2 wounds on the T-47 (4 attacks to kill); but 3.125 on the AT-RT (2 attacks to kill); in which case 2 AT-RTs represent no substantial survivability over the 47 (less so, since the 47 can survive multiple attacks in a single round, whereas the same is almost certain to take an RT off the board; and if they’re running flamers to threaten infantry, before they can even get into range). 

[thepopemobile100 977]

42 minutes ago, Derrault said:

And the HH-12 averages 2 wounds on the T-47 (4 attacks to kill); but 3.125 on the AT-RT (2 attacks to kill); in which case 2 AT-RTs represent no substantial survivability over the 47 (less so, since the 47 can survive multiple attacks in a single round, whereas the same is almost certain to take an RT off the board; and if they’re running flamers to threaten infantry, before they can even get into range)

Yeah and when was the last time you played against someone who used multiple stormtroopers with the HH-12, let alone a single unit with them

[Derrault 1,091]

9 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Yeah and when was the last time you played against someone who used multiple stormtroopers with the HH-12, let alone a single unit with them

I mean, if they’re encountering the AT-RT routinely, maybe they should?

[thepopemobile100 977]

7 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I mean, if they’re encountering the AT-RT routinely, maybe they should?

I'm pretty sure it's because they don't want to gimp their corp movement with a weapon that is only at it's best against one unit when they have a solid general purpose weapon with the DLT.

Since we're getting really off topic again, I don't really have anything more to add to the initial discussion and I'm pretty sure you don't either at this point. I'll admit that you have convinced me try the T-47 again since impact seems to be dropping in commonality in my area with the exception of the AT-ST where it's still used by 50% of imperial players (there's three of us who play around here and I'm the only rebel player). I appreciate that you did a good job arguing for the T-47 which is something that I haven't seen done on the forum.

[Geressen 824]

great misstress of fortune, may people that do too many calculatons roll nothing but blanks.

[Derrault 1,091]

47 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I'm pretty sure it's because they don't want to gimp their corp movement with a weapon that is only at it's best against one unit when they have a solid general purpose weapon with the DLT.

Since we're getting really off topic again, I don't really have anything more to add to the initial discussion and I'm pretty sure you don't either at this point. I'll admit that you have convinced me try the T-47 again since impact seems to be dropping in commonality in my area with the exception of the AT-ST where it's still used by 50% of imperial players (there's three of us who play around here and I'm the only rebel player). I appreciate that you did a good job arguing for the T-47 which is something that I haven't seen done on the forum.

Well..that’s the thing, the DLT-19 squad drops the AT-RT in 3.84 attacks (approximately 2/3 of its game resources are devoted just to bring the AT-RT down!)

Whereas a single HH-12 does it in only 2 rounds. Plus the 3 black surge dice average 1.875 hit/crit results, while 2 red surge only average 1.75, making the HH-12 more dangerous at ranges 2-4 against any target, vehicle or infantry. (Fitting, seeing as it costs 10 more points, which are arguably saved in terms of the efficiency of NOT devoting 2 extra rounds of attacks to an RT target, which also means the RT has 2 fewer rounds to cause damage; which could be substantial if those are two rounds of flamethrower attacks... up to 24 critsurge black dice (15 damage worth!; ave of 7.5 wounds) assuming it targeted two full units.

Ahem, but I digress.

[thepopemobile100 977]

52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Well..that’s the thing, the DLT-19 squad drops the AT-RT in 3.84 attacks (approximately 2/3 of its game resources are devoted just to bring the AT-RT down!)

Whereas a single HH-12 does it in only 2 rounds. Plus the 3 black surge dice average 1.875 hit/crit results, while 2 red surge only average 1.75, making the HH-12 more dangerous at ranges 2-4 against any target, vehicle or infantry. (Fitting, seeing as it costs 10 more points, which are arguably saved in terms of the efficiency of NOT devoting 2 extra rounds of attacks to an RT target, which also means the RT has 2 fewer rounds to cause damage; which could be substantial if those are two rounds of flamethrower attacks... up to 24 critsurge black dice (15 damage worth!; ave of 7.5 wounds) assuming it targeted two full units

Except that the cost of the HH-12 is more than just points. In order to use it, you can't move before or after and it has to be reloaded after every shot. The lack of movement is compounded by the fact that you're devoting a corp unit to holding still and shooting at anything that gets close to it when your corp units are the ones best suited to completing objectives. Furthermore, if the unit has a suppression on it then you can't reload and shoot it which kills how often it can be used. An instance that is fairly common seeing as snipers can reliably put suppression on units since their the most meta unit in the game (I hate using meta tactics and refuse to use strike teams because of it)

[Jabby 1,042]

1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Except that the cost of the HH-12 is more than just points. In order to use it, you can't move before or after and it has to be reloaded after every shot. The lack of movement is compounded by the fact that you're devoting a corp unit to holding still and shooting at anything that gets close to it when your corp units are the ones best suited to completing objectives. Furthermore, if the unit has a suppression on it then you can't reload and shoot it which kills how often it can be used. An instance that is fairly common seeing as snipers can reliably put suppression on units since their the most meta unit in the game (I hate using meta tactics and refuse to use strike teams because of it)

I always bring one HH-12. Use it with Veers to get aims and that one free recover, set it up in a position and you should be able to work miracles. It’s even better with Palpatine. He can give it an action so it can recover/move and then shoot when it activates.

[buckero0 1,956]

6 minutes ago, Jabby said:

I always bring one HH-12. Use it with Veers to get aims and that one free recover, set it up in a position and you should be able to work miracles. It’s even better with Palpatine. He can give it an action so it can recover/move and then shoot when it activates.

Palp can only make them move and shoot if not exhausted. He's good, but not that good

Once the tanks hit the table, i think one hh12 w/ aim is a decent investment. Empire has a lot of impact as it is though, I'm not sure if you couldn't make due.

Edited January 19, 2019 by buckero0

[Derrault 1,091]

12 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Except that the cost of the HH-12 is more than just points. In order to use it, you can't move before or after and it has to be reloaded after every shot. The lack of movement is compounded by the fact that you're devoting a corp unit to holding still and shooting at anything that gets close to it when your corp units are the ones best suited to completing objectives. Furthermore, if the unit has a suppression on it then you can't reload and shoot it which kills how often it can be used. An instance that is fairly common seeing as snipers can reliably put suppression on units since their the most meta unit in the game (I hate using meta tactics and refuse to use strike teams because of it)

Two things

1) The sniper player would have to fire on the HH-12 first or deliver 2+ suppression before the end of the round (as one clears a round, and there’s a 1/3 chance of clearing each other suppression), which does tie up 88+ points of enemy resources, and slows but doesn’t stop it.

2) This means 3 rounds to destroy an RT assuming the unit doesn’t just rally and get rid of the suppression (or a command card nets them a free action, for example. And once in place (range 4 or closer) they don’t need to worry about movement anyway, there’s no incentive.

3 rounds is still a round faster than the DLT-19 (which is just as suppressable) and for only 10 points!

 

[costi 1,297]

The DLT is not "just as suppressable" - it can fire each round even if suppressed, which the HH-12 cannot

[Derrault 1,091]

15 hours ago, costi said:

The DLT is not "just as suppressable" - it can fire each round even if suppressed, which the HH-12 cannot

When suppressed it can’t move or aim and fire, and 2+ suppression tokens would also risk panic (absent an intervention).

[JediPartisan 810]

Why is the tank not coming with a Standby token?

Just curious.

[MasterShake2 5,184]

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

Why is the tank not coming with a Standby token?

Just curious.

 

Because vehicles can't Standby?  I don't know what other answer your expecting on this one.

[JediPartisan 810]

23 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Because vehicles can't Standby?  I don't know what other answer your expecting on this one.

As per the last update of the RRG, pg 51 under Standby: “Troopers and ground vehicles can perform the standby action.”

Question still stands.