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zimut-X

"Null" and setup

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13 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

My understanding is that card text doesn't affect game state unless the Ship card is in play (i.e starting the when ship is placed in the play area during Setup), with the exception of card text prefaced by "Setup:". So you'd place Null at I0.

That's how we read it, yeah.

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I'm a T.O. and as T.O. I would say I0 for setup, but yesterday I was a player and the judge said I7 !!!

With Dormitz, Quickdraw and Midnight, it hurts ...

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58 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

My understanding is that card text doesn't affect game state unless the Ship card is in play (i.e starting the when ship is placed in the play area during Setup), with the exception of card text prefaced by "Setup:". So you'd place Null at I0.

IMHO, setup is part of the game so card texts affect the game state. In v1, Veteran Instinct was affecting ships during setup.

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It was a casual tournement, when I say the "Judge", it's a friend too 😉

It's just to be sure, when I'm the T.O., to take the right decision

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15 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

In v1

1.0 is a false prophet

12 minutes ago, zimut-X said:

It was a casual tournement, when I say the "Judge", it's a friend too 😉

It's just to be sure, when I'm the T.O., to take the right decision

The TO is always right, anyways, even when they're wrong

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

My understanding is that card text doesn't affect game state unless the Ship card is in play (i.e starting the when ship is placed in the play area during Setup), with the exception of card text prefaced by "Setup:". So you'd place Null at I0.

Without any explicit rule that says abilities do or don't work during setup, this makes sense to me. I'd think Null would have to be printed as I7 with an ability that reduces him to I0 to work during setup, until FFG says otherwise.

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17 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

IMHO, setup is part of the game so card texts affect the game state. In v1, Veteran Instinct was affecting ships during setup.

I went back through the Rules Reference and there are no explicit rules about card text only being active while the ship is in-play like there was in 1.0. Instead, there are times when card abilities are inactive (unless explicitly noted otherwise) - when ships are removed from the game after being destroyed or while they are in reserve (i.e. docked). So it looks like placing Null at I7 is correct. But this is an area where a FAQ clarification would be helpful.

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2 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

My understanding is that card text doesn't affect game state unless the Ship card is in play (i.e starting the when ship is placed in the play area during Setup), with the exception of card text prefaced by "Setup:". So you'd place Null at I0.

IIRC, in 1e, the early concensus was that Epsilon Ace was placed at the higher PS 12, but after Dormitz glitches, there was a ruling that Pilot Abilities don't begin until after set-up.  Given that FFG has made rulings in the past, I'd be inclined to treat it the same way until we hear otherwise.  I think setup at Init 0 for Null is appropriate, but it's not something I'd fight hard on.

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1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

I went back through the Rules Reference and there are no explicit rules about card text only being active while the ship is in-play like there was in 1.0.

There is, however;

 ‘If a card has the “setup:” header, this effect is resolved during the appropriate step of setup.’

Which implies that without that header, the card text would not apply during setup and Null would be placed at i0 as per the pilot token...

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On 1/14/2019 at 12:13 PM, DexterOnone said:

There is, however;

 ‘If a card has the “setup:” header, this effect is resolved during the appropriate step of setup.’

Which implies that without that header, the card text would not apply during setup and Null would be placed at i0 as per the pilot token...

It doesn't really imply that at all, as Null's ability is not an ability that triggers during setup, it is an ability that is always on until damaged, which he is not during setup.  Many other cards have abilities that apply even when the ship is not in play, why would Null be different?

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Consider that the first step of setup is 

1. Gather Forces

In this step, instructions are clear that this is the step you put down shield, charge, and force tokens. Necessarily then, Shield Upgrade, Force Crew, and Upgrades with Charges must be considered active text or you wouldn't modify the number of tokens you put down.

It seems to me then that it is implied that card text is generally assumed to be active. This assumption is further strengthened by the RRG explicitly defining times when text is inactive, such as while a ship is in reserve (To be clear, ships awaiting placement during setup are not in your reserve. I checked to be sure). 

If the rules only define exceptions, then all else is likely meant to be the normal gamestate.

My conclusion would then be that you deploy at I7. But I wouldn't fight a judge that told me otherwise.

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 4:22 PM, SOTL said:

Pretty sure it's I0.

Pretty sure it's I7

So now what?

Jokes aside, "Unless Damaged, treat your initiative as 7" is an absolute clause. Pilot initiative is used to determine order of activations, engagements, AND to deploy forces.

Nowhere it is said that game abilities don't work until the ship is placed. Abilities are mandatory and have to be resolved. Null's effect doesn't have the 'Setup:' header because its ability doesn't resolve at a specific, appropriate moment in the setup step. Its ability applies during the whole game (including, and not limited, to the deploying forces step).

If you place Null at I0, you are violating its ability.

Edited by Jehan Menasis

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On 1/15/2019 at 2:25 AM, Transmogrifier said:

My understanding is that card text doesn't affect game state unless the Ship card is in play (i.e starting the when ship is placed in the play area during Setup), with the exception of card text prefaced by "Setup:". So you'd place Null at I0.

Resistance Han is a good example of this. His text says setup, Null does not.

Han - Setup: You can be placed anywhere in the play area beyond range 3 of enemy ships.

Null - While you are not damaged, treat your initiative value as 7.

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13 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

It doesn't really imply that at all, as Null's ability is not an ability that triggers during setup, it is an ability that is always on until damaged, which he is not during setup.  Many other cards have abilities that apply even when the ship is not in play, why would Null be different?

Where does it say that an ability is always on during set up? I could not find it in the rules reference. 

As to ships not in play, their abilities are clearly labelled that they are still in use.
Phantom 1 - Locked and Loaded: While you are docked, after your carrier ship performs a primary (Front Arc) or (Turret) attack, it may perform a bonus primary (Rear Arc) attack.
Phantom 2 - 
Comms Shuttle: While you are docked, your carrier ship gains (Coordinate) . Before your carrier ship activates, it may perform a (Coordinate) action.
Moralo Eval - If you would flee, you may spend 1 (Energy). If you do, place yourself in reserves instead. At the start of the next Planning Phase, place yourself within range 1 of the edge of the play area that you fled from.

Just some examples of what to do when a ship is not in play.

3 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Jokes aside, "Unless Damaged, treat your initiative as 7" is an absolute clause. Pilot initiative is used to determine order of activations, engagements, AND to deploy forces.

Nowhere it is said that game abilities don't work until the ship is placed. Abilities are mandatory and have to be resolved. Null's effect doesn't have the 'Setup:' header because its ability doesn't resolve at a specific, appropriate moment in the setup step. Its ability applies during the whole game (including, and not limited, to the deploying forces step).

If you place Null at I0, you are violating its ability.

Why does it make sense that an ability is always on? It makes more sense that an ability is on when it is in play, unless stated in cards like the Phantom Shuttles, but they are technically in play anyway. If he was to deploy at Int 7 I believe the card would have been written Int 7, when you are damaged you Int goes to 0, or however FFG would write it. 

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27 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Where does it say that an ability is always on during set up? I could not find it in the rules reference. 

As to ships not in play, their abilities are clearly labelled that they are still in use.
Phantom 1 - Locked and Loaded: While you are docked, after your carrier ship performs a primary (Front Arc) or (Turret) attack, it may perform a bonus primary (Rear Arc) attack.
Phantom 2 - 
Comms Shuttle: While you are docked, your carrier ship gains (Coordinate) . Before your carrier ship activates, it may perform a (Coordinate) action.
Moralo Eval - If you would flee, you may spend 1 (Energy). If you do, place yourself in reserves instead. At the start of the next Planning Phase, place yourself within range 1 of the edge of the play area that you fled from.

Just some examples of what to do when a ship is not in play.

Why does it make sense that an ability is always on? It makes more sense that an ability is on when it is in play, unless stated in cards like the Phantom Shuttles, but they are technically in play anyway. If he was to deploy at Int 7 I believe the card would have been written Int 7, when you are damaged you Int goes to 0, or however FFG would write it. 

The T-70 has game text that only matters during list building. If that text wasn’t working during setup you would be deploying an illegal ship. 

You are arguing for a very specific rule that doesn’t exist. “All game text is ignored during the setup phase unless that text has the word setup in it.”

Edited by HolySorcerer

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5 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The T-70 has game text that only matters during list building. If that text wasn’t working during setup you would be deploying an illegal ship. 

It doesn’t count if examples aren’t used. 

 

If if you are saying that weapon hardpoint is the same as the Null scenario.... please let it not be that. Is it that?

Or are you unsure what I mean by evidence backed argument?

Edited by Archangelspiv

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13 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You are arguing for a very specific rule that doesn’t exist. “All game text is ignored during the setup phase unless that text has the word setup in it.”

You are arguing the same non existent rule that all abilities exist, even before any playmat has been rolled out. 

You have completely misunderstood my line of discussion. I am not saying ignore abilities at all. I am saying their effect does not enter play until the little plastic space ship is in play, unless specified by the pilot card itself  

 

Edited by Archangelspiv

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