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Missiles.

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1 minute ago, hargleblarg said:

Homing Missiles is a 4-die attack

They are comparing Homing Missiles to 3 die primary attacks with the assumption that a target will prefer to take the auto damage instead of risking the Homing Missiles's 4 red.

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4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

In the EU, torpedoes were used quite a bit against fighters, and allowed some versatility between missiles (exclusively small craft) and heavier ordnance (rockets and bombs, used only against capital ships).

What they’re used for in the EU is besides the point. In the real world a torpedo is relatively slow moving, designed for use against slow moving or stationary targets - the word torpedo even comes from a Latin word meaning ‘sluggish’. Hence they shouldn’t really be used in fighter combat, which is what the much faster missiles were designed for! ;)

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15 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

What they’re used for in the EU is besides the point. In the real world a torpedo is relatively slow moving, designed for use against slow moving or stationary targets - the word torpedo even comes from a Latin word meaning ‘sluggish’. Hence they shouldn’t really be used in fighter combat, which is what the much faster missiles were designed for! ;)

On that note, torpedoes shouldn't exist in space since the primary separator between them and missiles is the use of the medium they're suspended in for thrust (application of mechanical energy via their props) instead of burning propellant like missiles do...

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8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Even on a 3-dice ship, homing missiles aren't a bad call.

A target locked (or focused) primary weapon shot at an agility 3 target at range 3 has about one chance in five of doing any damage.

Even if you consider homing missiles 'just' an automatic 1 damage, that's still nice - especially since if your opponent takes the hit, you keep the target lock for next turn.

6 Scyks with Homing Missiles.  Whatever you target lock has a serious choice to make...

In no way would this be a competitive list...  But it would be hilarious to pull off on an unsuspecting victim.

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4 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

6 Scyks with Homing Missiles.  Whatever you target lock has a serious choice to make...

In no way would this be a competitive list...  But it would be hilarious to pull off on an unsuspecting victim.

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

Total: 182

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

or

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

Total: 189

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Getting the locks might be an issue, but that is up to 7 damage on a target if they choose not to risk the dice.

My favorite Furball build:

Tala Squadron Pilot (25)
Outmaneuver (6)
Homing Missiles (3)

Total: 34

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Hiemfire

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

Brockets for everyone?

Yeah. Why not? 

I guess maybe you'd have to increase the cost of rockets by a couple of points, but they're still weaker than protons, and maybe it would help out with the ace meta if a bunch of cheap 2-dice ships suddenly had access to easy 3-dice attacks. 

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21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, that just blows your argument all to ****, doesn't it?

I will concede the point that my ideas about space torpedoes may not be quite 100% realistic, given real-world applications.

53 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

What they’re used for in the EU is besides the point.

I disagree.  We're not talking about some one-off, crazy writer introducing a bizarre idea in a single novel.  This aspect of combat in Star Wars is (from the sampling I've encountered) pretty consistent throughout books, games, comics, etc. and is, I feel, perfectly in keeping with the movies.  Therefore, the EU in this regard can be seen as an expanding of ideas in the films, rather than a conflicting idea.  Incidentally, if we wish to throw out the EU entirely, we can say goodbye to a good number of upgrades, pilots, and even entire ships.

59 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

 In the real world a torpedo is relatively slow moving, designed for use against slow moving or stationary targets - the word torpedo even comes from a Latin word meaning ‘sluggish’. Hence they shouldn’t really be used in fighter combat, which is what the much faster missiles were designed for! ;)

In the real world, maybe.  However, I'd point out that torpedoes in Star Wars are anything but sluggish.  They may not be as fast as missiles, but when Luke launches them to take out the Death Star, they still move a good deal faster than his X-Wing.

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28 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Bandit Squadron Pilot (23)
Homing Missiles (3)

x7

Total: 182

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

or

Binayre Pirate (24)
Homing Missiles (3)

x7

Total: 189

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Getting the locks might be an issue, but that is up to 7 damage on a target if they choose not to risk the dice.

My favorite Furball build:

Tala Squadron Pilot (25)
Outmaneuver (6)
Homing Missiles (3)

Total: 34

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Touché.  Z-95s can indeed cram 7 ships into the list.  In this case, the Scyks pay 5 more points for white barrel-roll, evade, 3 agility, and a speedier dial that takes its turns sharper.

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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Just now, It’s One Of Ours said:

Touché.  Z-95s can indeed cram 7 ships into the list.  In this case, the Scyks pay 5 more points for white barrel-roll, evade, 3 agility, and a speedier dial that takes its turns sharper.

Yep. A trade off based on personal taste in my opinion. :)

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27 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

On that note, torpedoes shouldn't exist in space since the primary separator between them and missiles is the use of the medium they're suspended in for thrust (application of mechanical energy via their props) instead of burning propellant like missiles do...

Technologies develop, keeping the same name while bearing little resemblance to their first iteration. ;)

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

In the real world, maybe.  However, I'd point out that torpedoes in Star Wars are anything but sluggish.  They may not be as fast as missiles, but when Luke launches them to take out the Death Star, they still move a good deal faster than his X-Wing.

This actually reinforces my point with regards the application of torpedoes... they were being used to take out a large, stationary, unshielded target, and required a long attack run and careful (or force assisted) aiming; not something you’d fire at a nimble fighter!

And my comment regarding the EU not being relevant was in the context of if I was redesigning the ordnance mechanics from scratch; they really needed to be changed more drastically from 1.0, and restricting torpedoes to vs. capital ships only would have been a good opportunity to change things up a bit - and also add something to make Epic stand out thematically from standard play... 

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2 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

Technologies develop, keeping the same name while bearing little resemblance to their first iteration. ;)

Yeah, like how in England they call flashlights torches. 

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Just now, DexterOnone said:

This actually reinforces my point with regards the application of torpedoes... they were being used to take out a large, stationary, unshielded target, and required a long attack run and careful (or force assisted) aiming; not something you’d fire at a nimble fighter!

Why do you keep assuming it's either/or?  I've never claimed that they weren't useful against large ships (and in fact even said that that's one of the reasons I equipped them so often in the X-Wing games), but that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can fire at.  Also, most fighters are a bit larger than two meters...

3 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

And my comment regarding the EU not being relevant was in the context of if I was redesigning the ordnance mechanics from scratch; they really needed to be changed more drastically from 1.0, and restricting torpedoes to vs. capital ships only would have been a good opportunity to change things up a bit - and also add something to make Epic stand out thematically from standard play... 

Apart from Proton Torpedoes and the TIE Bombers' bombs, was any other ordnance used in the original trilogy?  So we'd be removing a very recognizable item and limiting it to Epic only.  This doesn't make sense to me, especially given the fact that a large number of people playing the game are familiar with at least part of the EU and are perfectly fine with (if not outright expecting) torps being fired against fighters!

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7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Apart from Proton Torpedoes and the TIE Bombers' bombs, was any other ordnance used in the original trilogy?  So we'd be removing a very recognizable item and limiting it to Epic only.  This doesn't make sense to me, especially given the fact that a large number of people playing the game are familiar with at least part of the EU and are perfectly fine with (if not outright expecting) torps being fired against fighters!

Lando fired Concussion Missiles at the second Death Star's reactor from the Falcon. Wedge hit a side dohicky with his torps.

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

Lando fired Concussion Missiles at the second Death Star's reactor from the Falcon. Wedge hit a side dohicky with his torps.

Oh.  So I guess missiles are capital-ship only, too.

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Oh.  So I guess missiles are capital-ship only, too.

I ain't arguing for that side, just answering that specific question about ordinance (as they are defined in Star War) other than torps and bombs being used in the OT. Concussion Missiles were used against the second Death Star. I think there is also a scene with a couple of A-Wings firing missiles at a shield ball on one of the supporting Star Destroyers, but that might have been their laser cannons.

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8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Apart from Proton Torpedoes and the TIE Bombers' bombs, was any other ordnance used in the original trilogy?  So we'd be removing a very recognizable item and limiting it to Epic only.  This doesn't make sense to me, especially given the fact that a large number of people playing the game are familiar with at least part of the EU and are perfectly fine with (if not outright expecting) torps being fired against fighters!

Missiles have featured prominently in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter video games which were the original inspiration for this game. 

Missiles also have been used extensively in the prequel movie dogfights.

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I ain't arguing for that side, just answering that specific question about ordinance (as they are defined in Star War) other than torps and bombs being used in the OT. Concussion Missiles were used against the second Death Star. I think there is also a scene with a couple of A-Wings firing missiles at a shield ball on one of the supporting Star Destroyers, but that might have been their laser cannons.

No, I get what you were saying, and thanks for answering my ordnance question.  I was just using your post as a joking point against Dexter's post.

1 minute ago, Tvboy said:

Missiles have featured prominently in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter video games which were the original inspiration for this game. 

Yeah, but so were torpedoes, so apparently referencing the original inspiration isn't allowed.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

Yeah, but so were torpedoes, so apparently referencing the original inspiration isn't allowed.

I wasn't taking a side, just answering a question in a vacuum. 

I don't really read the entire thread, usually just the first page and the last page.

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5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Why do you keep assuming it's either/or?  I've never claimed that they weren't useful against large ships (and in fact even said that that's one of the reasons I equipped them so often in the X-Wing games), but that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can fire at.  Also, most fighters are a bit larger than two meters...

I’m not assuming anything - I’m simply pointing out that the use of torpedoes in Episode IV is technically correct in terms of how a torpedo is supposed to function. So they’d clearly done their research and understood how a torpedo works. Subsequent writers who have used torpedoes for dogfighting have been less diligent and failed in this regard!

And the size of the target is less of a problem than its manoeuvrability... if it takes that long to lock on to a stationary target, how would you ever manage to lock on to a fighter that’s jinking around all over the place? 

29 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Apart from Proton Torpedoes and the TIE Bombers' bombs, was any other ordnance used in the original trilogy?  So we'd be removing a very recognizable item and limiting it to Epic only.  This doesn't make sense to me, especially given the fact that a large number of people playing the game are familiar with at least part of the EU and are perfectly fine with (if not outright expecting) torps being fired against fighters!

It makes no sense to me that we have two different types of ordnance that do the same thing. Why bother to distinguish? You might as well just call them all missiles and be done with it, and give Epic the torpedoes as a means for small ships to kill huge ships.

The point is that 2.0 was an opportunity to radically shake things up and streamline the system, and yet here we are only a few months in and we’re right back to where things were at the end of 1.0 with people complaining about fully modded ordnance alpha strikes! :o

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1 minute ago, DexterOnone said:

And the size of the target is less of a problem than its manoeuvrability... if it takes that long to lock on to a stationary target, how would you ever manage to lock on to a fighter that’s jinking around all over the place? 

Seriously.  Play TIE Fighter or X-Wing Alliance.

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