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drail14me

Are ship models required for Squadrons in tournament play?

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For example, I do not have a TIE Bomber model because I don’t have Imperial Squadrons 1 expansion. However, I do have the Corellian Conflict expansion which comes with the Squadron card and cardboard base token for CPT Jonus TIE Bomber. 

Can I use CPT Jonus on a squadron base without an actual TIE Bomber on it in a Regional Tournament?

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The tournament rules indicate that you need to bring all ship and squadron models.  I recommend that you borrow a model from someone else at the tournament.  When I travelled to the Louisville regional recently, I actually forgot to pack objectives (I know, who does that!?!).  I arrived early to the tournament and was able to borrow the necessary objectives from two people.  I have found the Armada community extremely supportive in doing these types of things.

Also have a backup plan for your fleet in case no one is able to lend you one.

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2 minutes ago, drail14me said:

For example, I do not have a TIE Bomber model because I don’t have Imperial Squadrons 1 expansion. However, I do have the Corellian Conflict expansion which comes with the Squadron card and cardboard base token for CPT Jonus TIE Bomber. 

Can I use CPT Jonus on a squadron base without an actual TIE Bomber on it in a Regional Tournament?

This is a good question, as a recent TO for a Regional I probably would have allowed it because you had the card and dial but by the letter of the law I think it is not allowed.  My guess is most Regionals would allow it in your state but Nationals and Worlds you would have an issue.

If possible you could ask a friend if they have just one TIE Bomber model you could borrow and put it on a single post.  But as a TO I would have let this go even though by the letter of the law I should not.

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As a player, I would be ok with all squadrons of a single type being absent.  So if for example, you were missing one bomber, I would ask you to remove all bomber stands from all your bombers. That way, my brain would grok that "the bases with no squadron models on them = bombers".  If you had more than 1 squadron type missing, I probably would still play you, but I have to admit I would be pretty irritated about it, because it means I would have to ask you every time I looked at the game board which empty squadron bases represented what.  I know there's an icon on each squadron base, but I'm getting to the point where I need reading glasses and it's pretty annoying to not be able to, at a glance, tell what is what. 

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3 hours ago, Rocmistro said:

As a player, I would be ok with all squadrons of a single type being absent.  So if for example, you were missing one bomber, I would ask you to remove all bomber stands from all your bombers. That way, my brain would grok that "the bases with no squadron models on them = bombers".  If you had more than 1 squadron type missing, I probably would still play you, but I have to admit I would be pretty irritated about it, because it means I would have to ask you every time I looked at the game board which empty squadron bases represented what.  I know there's an icon on each squadron base, but I'm getting to the point where I need reading glasses and it's pretty annoying to not be able to, at a glance, tell what is what. 

Or in that situation he could just redistribute the Bombers evenly across stands.

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4 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Or in that situation he could just redistribute the Bombers evenly across stands.

The problem is that I don’t have ANY bomber models. The Imperial Squadrons 1 is out of print so Incant get any short of paying the $50+ going rate on eBay. 

So, since that expansion that contains the TIE Bomber expansion isn’t available now but since I DO have the card and cardboard for Captain Jonus that came with the Corellian Conflict, can I run just a Squadron peg with the Captain Jonus cardboard and card for a tournament?

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17 minutes ago, drail14me said:

The problem is that I don’t have ANY bomber models. The Imperial Squadrons 1 is out of print so Incant get any short of paying the $50+ going rate on eBay. 

So, since that expansion that contains the TIE Bomber expansion isn’t available now but since I DO have the card and cardboard for Captain Jonus that came with the Corellian Conflict, can I run just a Squadron peg with the Captain Jonus cardboard and card for a tournament?

In your situation I can only echo the advice above: a good case could be made for it being illegal, nobody’s likely to make a big deal out of it, you can probably find someone willing to lend one if needed, bring a backup list with only stuff you own the model for if you want to be safe.

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It's hard to argue that playing without the correct model is okay.

I recently played a friend in a CC match.  He didn't use any of his squadron models in a squadron-heavy Rebels aces list.

It was a significant disadvantage for me, and I (a mild-mannered player just trying have fun playing with plastic spaceships and dice) verbally grumbled about it a few times.  The visual cues of the actual models are very important in this game, especially to your opponent. 

In this case, one model/one squadron is probably okay.  But beyond that, especially at a top-tier tournament like a Regional, no way.

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4 hours ago, TTC said:

It's hard to argue that playing without the correct model is okay.

I recently played a friend in a CC match.  He didn't use any of his squadron models in a squadron-heavy Rebels aces list.

It was a significant disadvantage for me, and I (a mild-mannered player just trying have fun playing with plastic spaceships and dice) verbally grumbled about it a few times.  The visual cues of the actual models are very important in this game, especially to your opponent. 

In this case, one model/one squadron is probably okay.  But beyond that, especially at a top-tier tournament like a Regional, no way.

Yes, that's exactly the case I was trying to make in my post above, but you illustrated it better than me.

The rules say you must have ALL components, cards, ship models, squadron models, etc.  They also say you must build up to but not over 400 points.  If I asked you if I could include another 25 points in my list over 400, or if I could equip a second Fleet Commander, would that be ok?

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1 hour ago, Rocmistro said:

The rules say you must have ALL components, cards, ship models, squadron models, etc.  They also say you must build up to but not over 400 points.  If I asked you if I could include another 25 points in my list over 400, or if I could equip a second Fleet Commander, would that be ok?

This seems a little like apples to oranges. Yes, rules are rules but some are not as critical as others. Even in a casual game, chances are you aren’t going to let someone build a fleet with points over 400. However, you would probably have no issue with an opponent use a Squadron card, Squadron cardboard base and clear Squadron stand that all came out of official packs but be missing the corresponding ship that comes in a different, out of print, expansion. 

This also illustrates the issue of selling “card packs” that don’t include a model. It’s sucks to buy something and not be able to use it because what you bought didn’t come with everything needed to play it. Of course, it would t be and issue if the other components were readily available. 

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Rules as written, this is not allowed.

A TO could make an exception, especially if all efforts were taken to minimize the confusion this may present, but if an opponent made a fuss about it and didn't want to allow the squad to be fielded during their game (for a variety of possible legitimate reasons), well then it could start a real muck of a situation, and depending on the level of the event could become an issue.  Given that, probably best to just not field it, even if a sympathetic TO can be found, at least at Store Championships and above.

At season kit tournaments or friendly tournaments, where TO's have increasingly more power and discretion, then yea it would come down to the TO's instincts.

That said, Armada players are a pretty mellow and jovial lot, so I think it'd be rare you'd run into a stickler making a fuss.  Especially if you just lie to the TO and your opponents and say something sympathy-promoting, like "after my last event, my car got broken into and my box with my old list was stolen--it contained all of my TIE Bomber models."  As a TO, I've actually heard similar things from players before about why they didn't have enough copies of expensive chase upgrade (e.g. Twin Laser Turrets or Autothrusters) for their list.  🤣

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Rules as written, this is not allowed.

A TO could make an exception, especially if all efforts were taken to minimize the confusion this may present, but if an opponent made a fuss about it and didn't want to allow the squad to be fielded during their game (for a variety of possible legitimate reasons), well then it could start a real muck of a situation, and depending on the level of the event could become an issue.  Given that, probably best to just not field it, even if a sympathetic TO can be found, at least at Store Championships and above.

At season kit tournaments or friendly tournaments, where TO's have increasingly more power and discretion, then yea it would come down to the TO's instincts.

I’m not going to field it. I DO prefer to have all my own components and wouldn’t even feel comfortable borrowing one IF one was available. 

The fleet list I was looking at had a grand total of two squadrons. A Decimator and a TIE Bomber Squadron so confusion should be limited. However, I’d picked the Squadron after misreading it’s ability. After rereading, it’s not worth taking. 

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I once played against a guy who forgot his shuttles, so he used a Y-Wing proxie instead...

 

And I was fielding Y-Wings as well... even with the small token you put at the base of the squad to differentiate it, it created a lot of confusion, and caused me to never attack it. I didn't lose because of that alone, but it sure as **** wasn't helping.

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1 hour ago, drail14me said:

This seems a little like apples to oranges. Yes, rules are rules but some are not as critical as others. Even in a casual game, chances are you aren’t going to let someone build a fleet with points over 400. However, you would probably have no issue with an opponent use a Squadron card, Squadron cardboard base and clear Squadron stand that all came out of official packs but be missing the corresponding ship that comes in a different, out of print, expansion. 

This also illustrates the issue of selling “card packs” that don’t include a model. It’s sucks to buy something and not be able to use it because what you bought didn’t come with everything needed to play it. Of course, it would t be and issue if the other components were readily available. 

Yes and no.  The rules of a tourney are the rules.  If you go into them with an attitude or expectation that some are more important than others, you are putting your values on some items over others.  You alone don't get to decide "this rule is not important as this other rule, so I'm going to ask an opponent if I can break it."  Both me and TTC already provided what I think are justifiable reasons why we wouldn't be happy about someone not bringing the appropriate squadron models.  It's not because we are rigid jerks; it's because we take visual cues from the models themselves which give us valuable, on-the-fly data about what we're up against. Obfuscating that, intentionally or not intentionally, by requiring me or someone else to put in more effort to "see" what's on the table gives a player a sleight advantage.  When it's the 3rd game of the tourney, after I drove 3 hours and have another 3 hour drive back, the extra little bit of effort to ask "what's that squadron supposed to be again?"seems unfair to demand of me.

That is, in fact, why they are the rules.

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1 hour ago, drail14me said:

 

This also illustrates the issue of selling “card packs” that don’t include a model. It’s sucks to buy something and not be able to use it because what you bought didn’t come with everything needed to play it. Of course, it would t be and issue if the other components were readily available. 

Yup. 

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Of course, the real tragedy here is that the Imperial Squadron I packs are out of stock.  The same thing happened in the summer of 2017 when I started playing.  I went several months as a new player with TIE bombers, interceptors, and advanced.

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11 hours ago, ptownhiker said:

Of course, the real tragedy here is that the Imperial Squadron I packs are out of stock.  The same thing happened in the summer of 2017 when I started playing.  I went several months as a new player with TIE bombers, interceptors, and advanced.

Hope the rumors are true that Squadron 1 packs will be back in stock in January......time is running out though. 

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20 hours ago, Sybreed said:

I once played against a guy who forgot his shuttles, so he used a Y-Wing proxie instead...

 

And I was fielding Y-Wings as well... even with the small token you put at the base of the squad to differentiate it, it created a lot of confusion, and caused me to never attack it. I didn't lose because of that alone, but it sure as **** wasn't helping.

Which on a related note highlights the benefit of painting squads to make them easily distinguishable. Even a dip coat will work.

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22 minutes ago, drail14me said:

Hope the rumors are true that Squadron 1 packs will be back in stock in January......time is running out though. 

The listed date would mean they hit shelves tomorrow, so, we'll know before too long.

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1 hour ago, drail14me said:

Where are you seeing this? FFG shows “Awaiting reprint”

The Spanish site, which has been more accurate than the english site for some time, says they will be available tomorrow.  I wouldn't necessarily say they will be available tomorrow based on that but it should mean they will be available soon.

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22 hours ago, Sybreed said:

I once played against a guy who forgot his shuttles, so he used a Y-Wing proxie instead...

 

And I was fielding Y-Wings as well... even with the small token you put at the base of the squad to differentiate it, it created a lot of confusion, and caused me to never attack it. I didn't lose because of that alone, but it sure as **** wasn't helping.

In this case you could/should use the squadron differentiation tokens.  The Black and Grey tokens with "wings" printed on them.  These are used to differentiate players squads when both have identical squads.  One player takes black the other gray.  That said his choice wasn't the best for a subsitute and should have probably been better off flying the stand without the models.

Again, to the OP's original question.  As a TO knowing that squad 1 packs have not been available for a considerable amount of time I would ask them to first see if someone has models they could borrow but if that doesn't work I would work with them and their opponent to come up with an appropriate visual cue to identify the squad as long as the player has the proper card and squad token.

This is an extenuating circumstance out of the players control (FFG has not been able to stock the item for a considerable amount of time).  Players in this area would generally be happy to accomodate the player in question in this case.

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48 minutes ago, Thrindal said:

The Spanish site, which has been more accurate than the english site for some time, says they will be available tomorrow.  I wouldn't necessarily say they will be available tomorrow based on that but it should mean they will be available soon.

I suppose if you already have the cards in English from a set you bought years ago but just want a second set to get you more A-Wings for example, you could just get the Spanish set. The models are the same and I don't think there is any words printed on the squadron disks. Even without the cards some friends with large collections will be happy to give you a spare set of squadron cards from their second set.

This sort of thing happened with the Arquitens several months ago. They were not available for ages then UK stores and UK eBay had a delivery, but those sold out quickly and they were out of print for another 3 months or so before FFG declared them "In stores now".

I think the distributor may have held on to say 10 Arquitens from years ago to use for example if someone complains about an omission or miscast. Once the product is "on the boat" the distributor no longer needs this emergency supply and so releases most of them to shops before the reprints arrive.  

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