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FFG kills all Terrinoth, now that Christian Petersen has left (why ? Because he was the Boss but he wasnt. He could not do anymore as he wanted to, they put him on ice)

FFG creates half or less games and want to sell it like crazy. They are crazy. To expect a twoplayer game with 2 factions in one box to sell like warhammer in the best years. In battle lore they didnt made the elves, in runewars they didnt made the huge flying models. What do they have to offer that we shall buy? Where is it what we want to buy ?

FFG should start to offer complete games when they want to sell them in large numbers and not appetizers. But now with Asmodee you can forget this company. They didnt get the models to Europe, they didnt made further translations, they done nothing in europe since asmodee took this over.  It worked so well with Heidelbären before Asmodde came in.  Now it is completely ruined. fanzasy is history.  (maybe that was the plan).

BTW i am not a fan of runewars rules . to me,, and many others, they are overloaded. you have to learn chinese to use these command holders,  every step takes much too long, overcomplicated. no fun to play.

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8 minutes ago, magicrealm said:

FFG creates half or less games and want to sell it like crazy. They are crazy. To expect a twoplayer game with 2 factions in one box to sell like warhammer in the best years. In battle lore they didnt made the elves, in runewars they didnt made the huge flying models. What do they have to offer that we shall buy? Where is it what we want to buy ?

This I agree with. On my bike ride into work this morning, the thought occurred to me, "I'm never getting my barrow wyrm." I wanted to cry. I guess I could go look for BattleLore, but I really wanted to see its magnificence on my table amidst my painted armies and the terrain I am working on. It's a crying shame.

9 minutes ago, magicrealm said:

BTW i am not a fan of runewars rules . to me,, and many others, they are overloaded. you have to learn chinese to use these command holders,  every step takes much too long, overcomplicated. no fun to play.

Thank you for sharing. You are the first person I've heard of that has complained about the rules, but I am sure there are more people out there. So many people say that it's the best fantasy war game they've ever played, but it's the only one I've played, so I have nothing to compare it to (except X-wing, and I love X-wing. Or, I loved X-wing, but Runewars has made X-wing feel like a cheap skirmish game by comparison. Still waiting for the return of Epic X-wing).

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21 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

And of course, as others have said, I really want FFG to push Terrinoth more. Sigh. I guess that means I need to go out and buy Heroes of Terrinoth. Anyway, my wife said that from everything she's heard me talk about, Terrinoth is a very generic fantasy setting. 

Heroes of Terrinoth is a good game, good enough that despite playing the **** out of it, I still picked up a copy of the final product, which doesn't happen a lot with me. But there's nothing in it that will dispel the 'generic fantasy' image.

Maybe that will change in an expansion, but not in the base game.

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1 minute ago, Xelto said:

Heroes of Terrinoth is a good game...But there's nothing in it that will dispel the 'generic fantasy' image.

Maybe that will change in an expansion, but not in the base game.

Now this is an interesting point. What will it take to dispel the "generic fantasy" image? I ask honestly, because I'm not well versed in fantasy. Is D&D also considered "generic fantasy"? What makes one world strikingly different from the last. Don't the rune shards and the Three Darknesses do enough to establish this as it's own unique world?

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3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Now this is an interesting point. What will it take to dispel the "generic fantasy" image? I ask honestly, because I'm not well versed in fantasy. Is D&D also considered "generic fantasy"? What makes one world strikingly different from the last. Don't the rune shards and the Three Darknesses do enough to establish this as it's own unique world?

D&D is basically the benchmark for generic fantasy.

Warhammer Fantasy differentiates itself with the Chaos gods, the twisted monstrous creatures and demons they spawn, Rat-men prominently featured, early steampunk elements, and a pretty unique (at the time) take on orcs and goblins.

Warcraft differentiates itself with noble (and interestingly corrupted!) shamanistic orcs, doubling down on the steampunk vibe, and a focus on characters and a strong narrative of"recent" history. Even so, it looks a lot like Warhammer because of its origins as a video game on development.

Tolkien competes with D&D (impressive, considering it largely inspired D&D, but then D&D went bonkers at creating reams of new content to gobble up as many influences as it could find) at being the iconic starting point for fantasy settings, with Tolkienesque  depiction of elves and orcs and goblins and wizards setting the standards and norms for things to follow to either conform to (generically), or break the mold by deviating from in interesting and visible ways.

 

Rune Wars feels generic because there's very little visible impact to it's products to highlight the way its rune magic works as different from other settings magic items or spellcasters (typically relegating them to names of upgrades with frankly pedestrian game mechanics and effects), relatively few distinctive creatures turned into visible units, and no races that really break new ground instead of being "what you expect elves to be like" or "this setting's version of X corrupted but demons".

Some of that is being a victim of coming late to the fantasy setting party, some of that is a poor job creating compelling narratives and creation stories that manifest themselves in the games we play. There isn't even a head honcho demon the Uthuk Y'llan venerate or made their bargains with, is there? There's no name to associate their corruption with. We know a few key names for leaders within the factions, but have no information about who they're rivals with within their own political circles (which is often crucial information for hobbyist players to build narratives for their mirror matches around), and the characters we have seem to be the biggest leaders in their factions instead of favored generals and lieutenants that might quick and vie for status.

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24 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Now this is an interesting point. What will it take to dispel the "generic fantasy" image? I ask honestly, because I'm not well versed in fantasy. Is D&D also considered "generic fantasy"? What makes one world strikingly different from the last. Don't the rune shards and the Three Darknesses do enough to establish this as it's own unique world?

Terrinoth has some depth, mostly shown in the role playing sourcebook and bits and pieces showing in RMG, usually with the heroes.

Heroes of Terrinoth doesn't show that depth in any significant way.

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Honestly, without a form of media or novel, theres no way to dispel the generic feel.  There is a lush, exciting history to the world, and the Genisys terrinoth book helps to make more of it.  But that's not really enough.  A lot of the successful games are built off of movies, shows or books, or have a few books written about them.

People need to know the story behind the figures.  A few paragraphs of lore every now and then somewhere online is not enough to excite many people.  If ffg had tried releasing a terrinoth novel setting up the game, it might have gone better.  

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I do feel alot of this is the fault of FFG. Just take a look at the news today. 

 

Friday - Runewars no longer tournament supported

Monday - 2 hot hot units for Starwars Legion. 

 

Sure we had the Lord of the Rings announcement at the same time but that is for an entirely different genre. FFG basically shelved Runewars to Ride Legion high for close to 6 months at the start of 2018. 

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On 1/13/2019 at 6:26 AM, player1329291 said:

I think it is more simple than people would like it to be:

The game never caught on ...

I assume that FFG quite quickly realised it is going nowhere, but didn't want to cancel it outright, especially as they were going to release Legion soon. So they simply spread the release schedule to give an illusion that game was alive for year longer than it actually was.


I think this is completely correct.  I think the real issue was that there just wasn't enough demand for the game.  And your point about FFG drawing it out to not have a failed tabletop game on their resume right before Legion dropped makes a lot of sense.

Who knows, if the Runewar's manufacturing standards and gameplay mechanics would have been skinned with Warhammer or Warcraft or D&D or Tolkien fluff, the game might have done quite well (not that FFG has the rights to any of those, but).  Hard to say, but I've always felt a huge part of it was just that Terinoth is not really a captivating or popular IP, generally speaking.

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What's the over-under on FFG updating/refining the Runewars rules and the modelling process and releasing "Rokugan Wars" with the lessons they've learned from RuneWars?

It's also a property they own now, so no licensing rights, but Rokugan has always seemed more popular than Terrinoth by a long stretch.  Plus, unlike the very bland "generic fantasy" theme of Terrinnoth, they would be offering the only "Feudalistic Mystical Asian-Themed" tabletop game on the market, which would have more aesthetic wow-factor and pull for even non-L5R fans.  Plenty of factions to offer, lots of creatures, etc.

In fact... now that I'm thinking about this... didn't RuneWars release before FFG had the rights to LR5?  Maybe... once they got the rights to L5R they planned on switching RuneWars over to an L5R-Wars (like the old "Clan Wars" miniature game of the late 90s?).  And I'm not just thinking about all of this because I loved Clan Wars and would play the **** out of a RuneWars-like Rokugan game... :D

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What's the over-under on FFG updating/refining the Runewars rules and the modelling process and releasing "Rokugan Wars" with the lessons they've learned from RuneWars?

It's also a property they own now, so no licensing rights, but Rokugan has always seemed more popular than Terrinoth by a long stretch.  Plus, unlike the very bland "generic fantasy" theme of Terrinnoth, they would be offering the only "Feudalistic Mystical Asian-Themed" tabletop game on the market, which would have more aesthetic wow-factor and pull for even non-L5R fans.  Plenty of factions to offer, lots of creatures, etc.

I wouldn't buy into it because they would most likely half *** it and kill it after 2 years.

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After reading many recents posts, I wonder if the entire of the gaming market is just crowded with products that if you don’t hit everything just right, you miss.

I loved the gameplay.  That did it for me.  The setting was definitely generic, but as that was obviously important for same people, striving to do it better might have made a difference.

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It really hurt the game that as soon as they got 4 factions out, they sidelined production (or some type of disaster happened) for several months leading up to another miniatures game they now produce and has a much bigger following.

Oh well. It's too bad. I would have loved to keep playing, but the local scene in Chicago pretty much dried up by the time the Uthuk were releasing. I still need to pick up a Lord Vorunthul. If anything, because he was so much fun to play test.

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21 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What's the over-under on FFG updating/refining the Runewars rules and the modelling process and releasing "Rokugan Wars" with the lessons they've learned from RuneWars?

It's also a property they own now, so no licensing rights, but Rokugan has always seemed more popular than Terrinoth by a long stretch.  Plus, unlike the very bland "generic fantasy" theme of Terrinnoth, they would be offering the only "Feudalistic Mystical Asian-Themed" tabletop game on the market, which would have more aesthetic wow-factor and pull for even non-L5R fans.  Plenty of factions to offer, lots of creatures, etc.

While "it's too generic" was always a criticism of Terrinoth, it was also close to being a strength. While it doesn't come with built in fans who just gotta have the latest thing related to their favorite setting, it also is relatable, recognizable to newbies, sets expectations easily, and is unlikely to outright turn people off by being too niche.

L5R is the flip side of that. It comes with some baked in fans who gravitated to it over years back in the day and carry nostalgia for that. But the samurai theme is much narrower and divisive than generic fantasy a it doesn't do a good job of quickly establishing expectations and s gameplay language by leveraging common understanding of popular tropes as well as fantasy factions do, and it's less visually diverse than traditional fantasy races and creatures. (I primarily know L5R from limited exposure to the card game a few times, but I've NEVER seen what I'd consider a fantasy creature depicted. So in addition to all the factions being infantry in samurai armor instead of some skeletons, others elves, with some humans and dwarves over there... I also lose the carrion worms, treants, golems, and demon crabs that make Terrinoth stop passers-by despite the lack of familiarity. At least, as far as I know.

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I don't know. I think this incident has me swearing off expandable, customizable games. Board games with expansions? Sure? Games with factions sold outside the core? Not so much. (I'm still excited for a Heroes of Terrinoth expansion.)

But if I did get into another expandable game, at this point I would be strongly tempted to go see what GW has to offer.

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8 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I don't know. I think this incident has me swearing off expandable, customizable games. Board games with expansions? Sure? Games with factions sold outside the core? Not so much. (I'm still excited for a Heroes of Terrinoth expansion.)

But if I did get into another expandable game, at this point I would be strongly tempted to go see what GW has to offer.

The models are light years ahead of FFG. I just really enjoyed the simplicity of the rules in Runewars and I loved the dial system. 

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48 minutes ago, kaffis said:

While "it's too generic" was always a criticism of Terrinoth, it was also close to being a strength. While it doesn't come with built in fans who just gotta have the latest thing related to their favorite setting, it also is relatable, recognizable to newbies, sets expectations easily, and is unlikely to outright turn people off by being too niche.

L5R is the flip side of that. It comes with some baked in fans who gravitated to it over years back in the day and carry nostalgia for that. But the samurai theme is much narrower and divisive than generic fantasy a it doesn't do a good job of quickly establishing expectations and s gameplay language by leveraging common understanding of popular tropes as well as fantasy factions do, and it's less visually diverse than traditional fantasy races and creatures. (I primarily know L5R from limited exposure to the card game a few times, but I've NEVER seen what I'd consider a fantasy creature depicted. So in addition to all the factions being infantry in samurai armor instead of some skeletons, others elves, with some humans and dwarves over there... I also lose the carrion worms, treants, golems, and demon crabs that make Terrinoth stop passers-by despite the lack of familiarity. At least, as far as I know.

I agree with this. I have watched Age of Sigmar played and the players will start in with some of the history and I just bale. It doesn't sound good to me and seems like it is trying really hard to be deep. The L5R stuff does not grab me as I am not into the Samurai/Ninja fantasy. So I guess I prefer generic fantasy with it's roots in JRRT and D&D. 

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1 hour ago, EpicBubbleSA said:

I do feel alot of this is the fault of FFG. Just take a look at the news today. 

 

Friday - Runewars no longer tournament supported

Monday - 2 hot hot units for Starwars Legion. 

 

Sure we had the Lord of the Rings announcement at the same time but that is for an entirely different genre. FFG basically shelved Runewars to Ride Legion high for close to 6 months at the start of 2018. 

And just a little after that an article comes out celebrating KeyForge organized play. I might just be salty about another of my favorite FFG products getting an early death, but KF seems like the worst form of money-mongering, even worse than SW Destiny. Really leaving a bad taste in my mouth w/ how they're handling their products these days.

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3 hours ago, Derrault said:

So, between the two similar examples of a marketing magazine, one is GW which has the benefit of 30 some odd years momentum, and the other is defunct?

The farewell for No Quarter Prime (the rebranding of No Quarter) even mentions the reality of consumer preference for electronic over print mediums), which isn’t exactly inspiring.

 

 

White Dwarf works.

They now have Spike! for Blood Bowl. In fact they use White Dwarf as well.

They are the number one rockstar when it comes to fanatical fan bases. If FFG want the same following - that is the only way they will get it.

FFG already have a poor man's magazine via the "FFG News". FFG even tried a 4 series battle report - it was good - just have a look at the log statistics.

Problem is - FFG only did it for 4 weeks and only at a time when it was too little too late. 

To generate drive - you need to keep pumping out content...

Put out a strategy guide, put out a painting and modelling guide.. put out a conversion corner... the hobby is more than world championships. If you are going to release unpainted models that require assembly - realise the game is more than a game but a hobby - so fuel the hobby.

A few years ago GW was only trading at some GBP400. Their sales plummeted. Now GAW.L is at a phenomenal GBP3150. Why? Because they went back to their roots - rereleased classic games that their community loves - Necromunda, Blood Bowl, small games.

When you listen to the community and go back to basics - you win. When you turf products and screw loyal followers, you lose.

FFG I feel are going down the latter path- whether they are trying to bite off more than they can chew by releasing so many Star Wars derived products as possible to capitalise on IP at the expense of their own IP, or perhaps they needed to axe Runewars to get back their GW IP licences and be on good terms with GW, I don't know. What I do know is, it's fairly clear it is a death knell for a great game, and with it a lot of customers will permanently distrust the brand after investing, being let down, and feeling that FFG hasn't given it the fair development and active promotion that it needs.

The other winning formula that FFG have developed is a game that is resistant to piracy by 3D printers or counterfeit or proxy models. It is the only game system I know where you buy a boxset just for a single card within the box content (apart from XWing). Whether that is a good thing or not in the end perhaps might need consideration, but FFG have a product that GW would kill for! GW's biggest problem? eBay and the secondhand market which prevents them from gaining sales. Runewars is unique in that way where the unit is more than the miniature, but the command dial, the unit card, and its upgrade cards that players need. A 3rd party can't just make similar models and profit off it.

Runewars is a winner. FFG just need a fantastic product manager that can capitalise and execute. They need to poach an exGW marketing guru and learn how to build fanatical fan bases. FFG needs FFB to survive and thrive

Edited by AvaKha

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Hrm, I feel like some of the "generic fantasy" mainly comes down to "how cool" the miniatures looks, both in uniqueness and visual appeal.

Looking at Daqan, really just the Rune golem helps you determine what game the figures come from.  The spearmen and calvary are fine, but from a distance, they don't necessarily blast unique or offer too much in regards to eye candy. 

I think if you wanted to jump out the gates strong, starting with more unique molds would have been better.  A starting army of iron bound, rune golems, and some rune wizards vs Lancers, barghast, crow hags would have fought off a lot of the comments of "generic fantasy".  These are all creatures in their IP already.  

I got excited for crossbowmen, but not for the looks, but because the mechanics they offered after I was already versed and hooked on the game. 

To get that initial hook, you want more unique things for the eyes like golems and Lancers had initially offered.  Golems are the thing that got me to pay attention, to read the rules and realize: wait I might actually like playing this game.

 

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1 hour ago, Xquer said:

To get that initial hook, you want more unique things for the eyes like golems and Lancers had initially offered.  Golems are the thing that got me to pay attention, to read the rules and realize: wait I might actually like playing this game.

 

This is 100% right. Exactly what happened to me. 

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I was very interested in Runewars when it was announced, but didn't like what I saw when it came out. It never got its footing, it should be abundantly clear it wasn't very popular in nearly all areas of the map, and that didn't surprise me. People ask why did it fail, what you should ask is: Why would it succeed? I think game companies don't ask that question and that's why so many of these games don't take off. Just sitting on a game store shelf is not enough to get people enthused and purchasing.

The gameplay got mixed reviews. Forums for players, where the top 1% of most interested players go to talk, probably gave it overwhelmingly great reviews, I cast a wider net and saw a lot of people who were unimpressed. The miniatures aren't bad, but so what? "Well these aren't terrible, here's hundreds of dollars!" said no gamer ever. The IP is basically irrelevant to the tabletop community at large. And the price was waaaaaay too high. $3 for PVC minis? If you want to sell your game expansions at board game values, sell board games. $3 for a PVC mini is more a less a nonstarter for the vast majority of tabletop wargamers. You have to be convinced to go in on that price. Meanwhile Runewars was looking for it's first superlative quality that would cause someone to want to buy it, let alone overcome negatives. I was really disappointed when I saw all this, because I knew they had released this game with a guarantee to fail. And it floundered out of the gate.

If they're going to sell tabletop miniature games they've got to start giving people a better reason to buy it than simply existing. All the things I mentioned above needed to be selling points, not negatives.

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I'm sad to hear this news. I'm not super fond of  the terrain rules (prefer the way other miniatures games handle terrain), and imho heroes are a bit too powerful, but its still a fantastic game. Twin dials is brilliant, and so is the way to avoid buckets of dice.

IMHO what hurt this game was the two factions on launch, and the price. There should have been 4 factions on launch, one of which should have been Elves - so many people I demo-ed the game to when the game launched said game looks nice, but I'll wait for the Elves. And imho, the fourth faction should have been another popular race such as dwarves or orcs.  The price! In Australia, a unit expansion was AU$45 each (X wing small ships are AU$28-30). So when I wanted to add a 2x2 cavalry unit to my force, $90! When I added a 3 x 1 crossbowmen unit, $90! 

L5R is a good ip. I would not be surprised if FFG launched a skirmish miniatures game for L5R in the future (there's already a couple skirmish medieval Samurai games about). If it had some innovations like Runewars did, I would probably give it a shot.

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