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lollypopalopicus

High powered characters question relating to Obiwan

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So, I have yet to get a chance to play the game, but I am interested, but there was something I wanted to know.

After seeing Obiwan's stats in the teaser for Rise of the Separatists, I noticed that his stat total is 12 above the base for that of a human. Let's say a player wants to play a game where they are like him. Assuming they chose to get 10xp based on the option on page 49, that gives them 120xp. They can use that to boost four of their stats to 3. That gives them 4 above the base stats. That means, in order for a character to get the same stats as Obiwan, they would need eight dedications, in order to match him, assuming they used all of their xp at character creation.

I know that NPCs aren't made using the same rules as players, but I have to ask, does anyone ever get that much xp in their games, or is the system designed for you to never get that strong?

I ask, because if I ever want to set a game during a different time period, where the players are the main heroes of the era, it would be kinda weird if they were effectively the weakest main heroes ever, so I have never been a fan of systems where players are eternally locked into a status of being significantly weaker than npcs.

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Reaching the Dedication talent in a tree needs less than XPs. That means you can have 8 dedication by buying Talents for less than 800 XPs. Buying the 7 specialisations needed, the 1st dedication comes from your 1st specialisation tree, needs 350 (20+30+40+50+60+70+80) more XPs. So it's possible to achieve the same stats' rise as Obiwan with around 1150 earned XPs.

Of course if you add the Force Powers mastered by Obiwan, it needs a lot more XPs to buy them with their upgrades. And even more XPs are needed tu raise skills levels.

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15 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

Reaching the Dedication talent in a tree needs less than XPs. That means you can have 8 dedication by buying Talents for less than 800 XPs. Buying the 7 specialisations needed, the 1st dedication comes from your 1st specialisation tree, needs 350 (20+30+40+50+60+70+80) more XPs. So it's possible to achieve the same stats' rise as Obiwan with around 1150 earned XPs.

Of course if you add the Force Powers mastered by Obiwan, it needs a lot more XPs to buy them with their upgrades. And even more XPs are needed tu raise skills levels.

So, on average, how much xp do characters usually get by the end of the campaign?

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1 hour ago, lollypopalopicus said:

So, on average, how much xp do characters usually get by the end of the campaign?

Depending on your point of view that question either has no answer or an infinite number of answers, but I would guess 2-3 specs comes close to answering your "impossible" (because it depends hugely on the group in question)

If you want the players to become the big **** heroes of the era then they should start using knight level rules but with about 500 earned xp instead of 150.

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4 hours ago, lollypopalopicus said:

So, I have yet to get a chance to play the game, but I am interested, but there was something I wanted to know.

After seeing Obiwan's stats in the teaser for Rise of the Separatists, I noticed that his stat total is 12 above the base for that of a human. Let's say a player wants to play a game where they are like him. Assuming they chose to get 10xp based on the option on page 49, that gives them 120xp. They can use that to boost four of their stats to 3. That gives them 4 above the base stats. That means, in order for a character to get the same stats as Obiwan, they would need eight dedications, in order to match him, assuming they used all of their xp at character creation.

I know that NPCs aren't made using the same rules as players, but I have to ask, does anyone ever get that much xp in their games, or is the system designed for you to never get that strong?

I ask, because if I ever want to set a game during a different time period, where the players are the main heroes of the era, it would be kinda weird if they were effectively the weakest main heroes ever, so I have never been a fan of systems where players are eternally locked into a status of being significantly weaker than npcs.

This is a problem that you have with all games attached to an IP with a mainline story like this.

There's basically 2 schools of thought:

1) The heroes need to be able to reliably accomplish all things they do in the IP and must be so powerful that should a player ever face one in combat the player must lose to ensure the IP remains intact.

2) The players are heroes of the same caliber as the IP, so if you need to stat IP heroes, they'll be roughly on par with a player at the same stage of their respective character's story. IP Heroes need not be supermen, only able to do the things that they do in the IP. They don't have to do it well, or reliably, just be able to do it. If your players are the type to kill an IP hero on sight just to see what happens, either don't allow them to meet, or be prepared to deal with it.

 

Currently you can, by making certain interpretations of what happens and how, make a player character that can do what you see Obi-wan do in the films at the same point in the PC's campaign.  By extension Obi-wan as an NPC at those same points in time will also not be especially powerful, just capable. Under this model were Obi-wan to face off against a player at the right point in time, the player would have a good chance of winning the fight.

BUT that's not what everyone wants. Try and explain those interpretations and Obi-wan as Knight level and you will see people disagree, insisting that the rules should be interpreted more strictly and the character's powers and abilities match various backstory events found outside the Films, and also including the factoring in of events found in novels, comics, ect. In that case, Obi-wan is indeed uncreatable as a player and must be an NPC of epic ability.

 

Now... to be fair, Obi-wan as of the Clone Wars Series, is going to be a pretty beefy PC or NPC. Exactly what his numbers should be will debated for decades. Should they be attainable? How many comparative XP should be considered per film and episode of the show? How strictly should a specific talent be applied? When he did X was he using a very specific talent only found in one specific tree, or did he just roll hot on a skill check?

But everyone can agree that if you're just starting your campaign that late in the war, then yeah, Obi's gonna be pretty awesome by comparison... After all, by that point he's got 2 films and however many episodes in to have accrued XP or to have demonstrated abilities that need to be included in his stats as an NPC.

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I see it like this;

A PC on a similar power level would need a wall of text describing all of their talents, many of which only give pretty minor bonuses in specific situations, or are complete no-brainers to use constantly. When statting out an NPC, you can make more efficient use of space by simply skipping a lot of those and inflating characteristics and skills to compensate. This of course makes them a lot more well-rounded than PCs, but that's fine as NPCs have more limited roles in the narrative. This is pretty much how I use the Adversary talent. Rather than bothering with talents like Sidestep, Dodge or the upgraded Sense power for NPCs, I simply throw a few ranks in Adversary at them to make them easier to run. On the other hand, I barely ever bother with talents that reduce setback dice for them, unless it serves a specific purpose for their theme/build (such as an ace pilot with skilled jockey that compensates for his ships negative handling score).

So, in short, higher characteristics and skills is the short form for a bunch of talents that would be a pain in the behind to keep track of.

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I think the padawan, Jedi, and master jedi should be op to where you get 2 force, and 2 dedication from each one.  thats just me though.  That would kinda explain the power creep though obi wan would still have 6 more probably from other specializations added to that like shi-cho, soresu, starfighter ace and whatever else.  But that would give him more force than what he should have.  Maybe 1 force from padawan and 1 force from jedi but 2 force from master.  Or 1 force and 2 dedication from each one.  that would help explain why they have much more characteristic points than normal humans.

Edited by Metalghost

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On 1/23/2019 at 7:45 AM, penpenpen said:

I see it like this;

A PC on a similar power level would need a wall of text describing all of their talents, many of which only give pretty minor bonuses in specific situations, or are complete no-brainers to use constantly. When statting out an NPC, you can make more efficient use of space by simply skipping a lot of those and inflating characteristics and skills to compensate. This of course makes them a lot more well-rounded than PCs, but that's fine as NPCs have more limited roles in the narrative. This is pretty much how I use the Adversary talent. Rather than bothering with talents like Sidestep, Dodge or the upgraded Sense power for NPCs, I simply throw a few ranks in Adversary at them to make them easier to run. On the other hand, I barely ever bother with talents that reduce setback dice for them, unless it serves a specific purpose for their theme/build (such as an ace pilot with skilled jockey that compensates for his ships negative handling score).

So, in short, higher characteristics and skills is the short form for a bunch of talents that would be a pain in the behind to keep track of.

My players love the kooky dice, but hate the "wall of talents" and trying to remember everything their characters could do during a session. Often times they would forget. And me? I'm not going to remember what all three player characters and all the NPCs can do while making seat of my pants decisions running a game. We decided, when the player characters reached three full trees, dipped into a signature talent tree, and had 4-5 force powers with one or two highly upgraded, to render the characters "iconic." In other words, we stripped them down, figured out their core concepts and abilities, rebuilt them like they were NPCs. We also renamed adversary "protagonist" and used that instead of remembering the sense upgrade (they all had it maxed out). I was initially concerned that would be too much of a power up (not committing a force die), but after running the characters for a while, giving each 2 "protagonist dice" hit the mark.

This would not work for groups with players whose primary psychological reward is constant advancement and power-ups, but my group reached a point where they felt like they had the characters they wanted and had become more interested in the in-story rewards and characters arcs. 

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