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Alternauta

The 3rd Edition probably will not happen

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Hey! Polish board game publisher Rebel has just announced that today that at 19:05 CET they will reveal a polish version of "a secret FFG project" that has been in development for a longer time. They also said it is some heavier game that comes with good license. This sounds to me like the 3rd edition of Descent :D We hadn't heard of Descent from a long time until... we recently got a new campaign for the app. Maybe that was only the beginning... I hope it's not yet another Star Wars game. Or as it is a licensed game it will be the Witcher descent-3rd-edition-like game instead of Descent setting. It would be logical then that a Polish publisher announces that before FFG.

Edited by Alternauta

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Please let us know if you hear anything interesting. But I wouldn't get too hyped yet.

Judging from Asmodees past actions I'd also think a Star Wars Battle Royale Board game with physical loot box expansions could be possible :)

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It's this. It seems to me like a mixture of LoTR, Descent, Runebound and Mansion of Madness. Therefore I think there will be no pure Descent 3rd Edition.  I highly doubt we will get new campaigns for app, too.

 

Edited by Alternauta

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This looks like a mess.

 

Not a fan of the overworld map which is supposed to be a vast majority of the game itself. The combat maps are just boring square tiles with a few white division lines on them. The app shows them with walls and cool terrain but none of that is in the box. Looks like a dud. 

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It looks like they are trying new things, which is good, but from what I saw I'm not entirely convinced the concept is fully developed.

To be honest, I'm glad this is not Terrinoth based. They can use this as a testing ground, iron out the rough edges and we might one day indeed get a great Descent 3rd edition.

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Don't know if you caught it beneath the above LotR announcement but they ended Organized Play for Runewars Miniature Game yesterday as well (from The Land Endures article on the main page):

 

Quote

Unfortunately, the numbers simply do not allow us to continue the program, and we are ending it immediately. There will be no further Seasonal Kits nor Store Championships, and we will be in contact with 2018 World Champion Justin Hare and 2017 World Champion Ben Fox to work through the adjustment to their World Championship prizes.

 

  That, I think, spells the beginning of the end, if not the end, for Runewars.

  In respect to this,  I am not a RW player, but it does make me hope a lot of people played the recently released RtL: Embers of Dread.  Why?  Well, It could be seen as more emphasis returned to Descent (especially with the Runewars shake up), which would be wonderful -  Descent has to be their strongest fielded Runebound-now-Terrinoth IP asset over time.   Or, Embers of Dread is a market test.   I'm sure it's a bit of both.  But in respect to the later, again, I hope it and RtL in general saw a lot of play.   Looked at in one light, aside from direct sales of Descent product, RtL is an excellent marker from which to draw an understanding of current player interest.   That (i.e. player interest) and sales will decide the future of Descent 2e or 3.

Edited by Cotgrave

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15 hours ago, DerDelphi said:

It looks like they are trying new things, which is good, but from what I saw I'm not entirely convinced the concept is fully developed.

To be honest, I'm glad this is not Terrinoth based. They can use this as a testing ground, iron out the rough edges and we might one day indeed get a great Descent 3rd edition.

Sure, I guess.

 

I just think it looks rather dull and just a mash up of two other games: Mansions of Madness and Fallout. 

 

As a Descent player here, there's nothing exciting about this new game from what i've seen so far. 

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The 'Journeys In' bit of the title is certainly a concern, hinting at a Descent link development wise. Was this an evolution of Descent that became a LOTR game?

 

If so a few alarm bells if it's a crystal ball for Descent's future:

Fully coop, though some have said the overlord player role doesn't work others would probably be sad to see it go

Does it only work with the app? (I prefer apps to be an optional thing, also sometimes board games are an escape from tech!)

The tiles aren't inspiring me much at the moment, Descent's tiles have lots of story inspiring / scene setting detail, what we've seen here seems a bit dull and generic to me, the battle map/journey map concept and terrain piece aspect is interesting- it could make for some interesting custom campaign settings for Descent, but I still feel the detail on the D2e tiles seems superior from what we've seen so far. But that's not a lot so we may not have seen the most interesting things. The tiles and the choice could be better than implied overall.

However this may not be the route Descent tiles might take and it means it's not potentially too similar to Descent.

Might just give us some of the terrain we lack in D2e too or some new options for 2e!

To improve on the Descent tiles for me I'd want some generic outdoor landscapes and generic indoor spaces along with mostly the more detailed kind of tiles we have now with 2e with enough flexibility overall to make a very wide range of scenes, so perhaps an evolution of this plus the D1e and 2e tilesets, the battle / journey map split could be improved and be useful if it meant you could set an adventure in either a larger area or more focused setting as with the building tiles of D2e, would want to keep the feel of the D2e tiles as they are though. The Sea of Blood island/sea 'poster map' of 1e was a good idea for larger areas/ basic ground as you could put map tiles ON that - the limitations for map designs for adventures are still an issue with 2e but the tiles are well designed so some solution that adds some diversity would be good, this new game may solve that though- there may be some such tiles that could be used to make maps for D2e. But I certainly wouldn't want to swap the D2e tiles for these tiles from what I've seen thus far.

 

If it was a D3e I don't think I'd be in from these first impressions. But I might get this as its own thing after completing my Terrinoth kit. It looks like a promising game in the LOTR setting.

 

The minis and the cards look good and if they've ditched dice altogether for skill cards that could help a lot with gameplay and balance. It does sound like there's just the cards- this concept I like, especially as its more flavour and less fate. More deep lore than dice luck. Cards also offer more strategic control than dice.

 

So it could be a winner on the gameplay front.

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BTW, 100$ for the new LotR game? You must be really fond of the LotR legacy or the game must be really super fantastic for such an investment!

 

Edited by tibia

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19 hours ago, tibia said:

BTW, 100$ for the new LotR game? You must be really fond of the LotR legacy or the game must be really super fantastic for such an investment!

 

Converting it to £ it's around what I'd expect to pay for a new big box type core game in the UK (but likewise only if the game is good enough)

 

Can't speak for dollars as I don't know the US games market, but it feels sort of right for the UK market, although perhaps not if we have to pay a lot more than that due to the costs to the retailers over here of importing it etc.

 

It's worth noting it's solo to five player in the core box too though. To be honest I also don't think we've seen enough of it to properly judge it yet, it could be a really good game, but maybe isn't quite there yet if Descent's heading in the same direction (loses yet more good things from D2e - a mistake 2e made in some areas over 1e and if future Descent takes any inspiration from new mechanics and so on in this it needs to do so without destroying all that's great about Descent, to improve and enhance Descent rather than destroy it, unless of course this started out as the future of Descent which is now abandoned....)

 

Afterthought: or maybe it HAS killed Descent third edition and that could be a good thing.

Huh? some of you all say.

Well here's why: Second edition never caught up with first (and never kept the good bits of first ironing out the problems with them), missing characters/heroes etc.

So say we got a 3e Descent but likewise lots of missing stuff v 2e and it never caught up with 2e (some of 2e was never ported over who's to say a 3e wouldn't lose a lot of what we like in 2e)

Alternatively they stick with 2e. Finish 2e. Fix what needs fixing. Still make new stuff that's actually compatible with current stuff (2e, great new map tiles, yay, oh, you can't use them with 1e tiles..... etc etc....)

Maybe improvements and additions to and compatible with 2e would be better than a third edition (you could even improve 2e components etc with them still being compatible)

Improvement doesn't have to mean ditching everything- if you improve a house unless the whole thing's falling apart you don't tear it down and start again laying foundations...

A third edition's also a risk- what if player's DON'T move over- what then of the game's future?

Would have to be REALLY good and really keep the feel and quality of D2e to work and for people to spend money on (especially as some of us already have a lot of 1e and 2e at quite some cost)

 

May have some flaws but 2e Descent is actually really good as is, such issues aside, so maybe just carrying on making 2e is a good thing.

Edited by Watercolour Dragon
Afterthought

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Just kinda taking a step back here, I get why everyone is upset, but I don't think that this necessarily means much about Descent at all.

 

It was an opportunity that, at first glance, might have been an exciting Terrinoth announcement.  Turns out it wasn't.  Doesn't mean that other announcement might not come sometime.

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OH NO!

While the production of this new LoTR seems good to me, I am not at all interested in a boring full cooperative game.  Why could they not make it at least coop/competitive?

Anyways no point in speculating much but this is obviously covering grounds that belong to descent.. it may be that they will not release 3rd, and that is a sad thought

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Uniting discussions around this, other recent developments and past discussions, FFG could actually do something really awesome with Terrinoth if they're brave and creative enough, and the things that DO work in the new game may inspire some of it, so maybe a bit of a Terrinoth hiatus could be a good thing, if they step back from it and really look at what they could do with the game world....

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/289043-the-land-endures/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3595324

 

So come on FFG, make Terrinoth THE go to fantasy game setting :) *keeps hoping*

 

 

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Been thinking about this some more, I know, I am trying to stop thinking of ideas for future Descent :) (I see the doubt on your faces, honestly, I know I said we should stop talking about it too! Just blame my brain...) BUT this idea about how the maps system I've been visioning could be a clever development to bring some clever improvements and unity to some of the Terrinoth games was too much of a lightbulb moment to not share. The new LOTR does actually offer an idea FFG could develop with some innovative leaps that could really enhance the games, and especially the fact they already have a lot of value for there being a real sense of story within the games, which for me has always been one of their big attractions, which such development could really add to. Whatever else they do doing this with the maps and tiles system could really open up some new options and at the same time solve some of what's missing tiles wise at the moment. Can we send out some collective meditative brainwaves to FFG's dev teams...

 

Also some reflections on recent events revived the optimism on the future of Terrinoth (which we need after so many 'this game's been abandoned' type threads about various games and so many signs that the non-FFG IP's are taking over a bit).

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/289043-the-land-endures/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-3604281

 

 

 

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Personally, I don't really see a need for a completely new edition right now.  The basic 2e mechanics are pretty solid, especially with respect to the the classic version played with an Overlord.  As for the co-op/app side of things, the enemy AI should be pretty easy to tighten up in the app without needing to publish new physical content.   I would prefer to see more PoD packs like the recently announced Lost Legends that give us more options for the characters.  

As for Runebound/Terrinoth in general, I don't think all hope is lost.  As much as I appreciate the setting, LotR is obviously going to have wider recognition so it will get some priority (FFG also needs to make good on its licensing).  It doesn't surprise me that the Runebound Miniatures game was a non-starter.  Could have predicted that from the moment they announced it.  Tabletop miniature games is a crowded field and has always been a niche-among-a-niche market.  Even FFGs other miniature games, other than X-Wing, have had a rocky go at it, and it was going to be doubly hard to make a miniature tabletop game based on a virtually unknown setting successful.  But let's not forget that Heroes of Terrinoth just came out which re-implements the great mechanics of their Warhammer Quest Adventure Card game except without the hang-up of a licence that could (and did) go away.  I hope to see lots more expansions for this product in the near term and it could be that this is where FFG will put a lot of their Terrinoth resources for right now.  In a way, HoT is a bit like Descent/Runebound Lite, much like the WQACG was Warhammer Quest "lite".  Still a very fun game to play though.  That said, I would like to see a few more expansions for Runebound.  The last one that added co-op play was much welcomed, but a few more of the small pack expansions with new scenarios would be appreciated. 

But going back to Descent.  Right now I think the app is where the best possible potential for growth will be.  I would like to see them create more campaigns/scenarios that take a wider portion of the expansions into consideration.  Doing so might also provide motivation for fans of the app to go out an purchase these expansions if they haven't already.  There is so much physical content for Descent 2e right now that it will take FFG awhile to exhaust utilizing it all in the app.

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There should be a 3rd edition of descent, to keep in that market. so long ffg opened a gap that other game publishers jumped it.  Gloomheaven and Sword&Sorcery are hard opponents now. probably fffg really fears them, afraid to produce their next non-starter flop. the whole terrinoth series is dead now and it would surprise me if ffg would resurrect it. i guess they stay with their Movie / TV powered games Star Wars, LoTR, Games of Thrones. A TV Accessoire Company.

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On 2/11/2019 at 6:54 PM, Otakuon said:

 It doesn't surprise me that the Runebound Miniatures game was a non-starter.  Could have predicted that from the moment they announced it.  Tabletop miniature games is a crowded field and has always been a niche-among-a-niche market.

Seriously, I also facepalmed when they announced the terrinoth RPG....

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On 2/27/2019 at 1:06 PM, Bucho said:

Seriously, I also facepalmed when they announced the terrinoth RPG....

Myself and others have been very much enjoying the RPG and if FFG are smart it could inject some further life and potential into the setting, FFG just need to do that thing of building on the foundations that are there already.

 

Don't knock the RPG- it's also got people talking about the other games in the setting, which can only be a good thing, and there's at least some small new hope from it that they have remembered Terrinoth exists as well as their external IP-verses because of it.

 

Just because a market is quite full doesn't mean new stuff can't enter it, take the number of animated cartoon movies there are or how much music is released, how many novels etc, although FFG could maybe improve at how they survive and stand out in the crowd, they have many products in the setting that deserve to survive, likewise quite a few niche markets survive if the firms behind them get their strategies right. It's true though that a crowded niche market is a combo that is the hardest to operate in.

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On 2/28/2019 at 1:03 PM, Watercolour Dragon said:

Myself and others have been very much enjoying the RPG and if FFG are smart it could inject some further life and potential into the setting, FFG just need to do that thing of building on the foundations that are there already.

I've also heard that Runewars is very nice. But trying to break in to a saturated market by charging too much money, making it convoluted to get into and doing a garbage job at advertising also ends up not being financially viable. So it's also an atrocious business decision.

Looking at the RPG it takes multiple books and costs 3 to 5 times the cost of the big name fantasy RPG's to get into and the reviews frequently say there's not a lot there....

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17 hours ago, Bucho said:

 

Looking at the RPG it takes multiple books and costs 3 to 5 times the cost of the big name fantasy RPG's to get into and the reviews frequently say there's not a lot there....

The prices don't seem too dissimilar to other products some of which are pretty much the same prices in the UK which suggests this should be the case even in the US, the hardcover core books are sometimes slightly less sometimes slightly more in the US and the RRP of the D and D one is $10 more so I'd disagree on this point, although FFG probably do have some problems on economies of scale being the smaller of the fish in the pond- I have noticed rivals have some cheaper options such as starter sets/ paperbacks etc, but the lore books and bestiaries can actually add a lot of extra cost (there are different options for different price bands and how much players want to buy in to the game such as expensive luxury items for the most hooked fans.)

 

Where I think FFG seriously need to up their game is:

1. Thinking (and developing things) long term. FFG don't seem too joined up on their thinking on this for some reason I can't quite understand, I worry that they'll never build up Genesys and some other lines the way they could- the big rivals have become bigger and better with time, FFG unfortunately do seem to launch things a little halfheartedly then let them fizzle out, sometimes killing off a potentially great product unnecessarily in the process before it's had time- and been given what it needs- to grow. The benefits of building up a brand / product over time can be massive - take the likes of what GW, D&D et al have become, increasingly frustratingly FFG seem to not be in projects for the long haul, they'll let something die rather than nurture it and let it grow into something special.

2. Planning for the longer term before launch. There also seems to be a bit of a lack of future vision pre-launch, if you're going to grow a product line the capacity for this growth needs to be built into the project even before it launches. This somehow feels a bit absent to me from some aspects of the RWM and Genesys launches, for example no real showcase pieces for RWM or with the latter almost no full bestiary- and the fans themselves have beaten FFG to it, so even if they do do something it could be too late as the patience/expectation- and more critically possibly the demand - has gone, this worrying feel of randomness to their launch strategies concerns me a lot as I think they're harming their very good product innovations as a result- players notice what's missing versus other systems for example. Of course I could be wrong and there's a lot more in the pipeline behind the scenes, but that brings me on to point three:

3. Stop all the secrecy paranoia. Yes, you have to keep some things under wraps but FFG seem to have a fear of death regarding telling their fans anything at all. This is perhaps the most dangerous to their business aspect of all as for so many games now there's all kinds of harmful speculation, at the worst end for potential new players it can even be 'it's not worth buying this as it won't be around much longer so I won't get to complete my collection/ find other players/ etc etc.' I'm sure a lot of the negativity is probably wrong- and at times maybe losing them sales- but they never do too good a job of communicating with their fanbase in a time, especially in the social media age, when so many companies do, FFG leave everything up to guesswork, if another company's saying hey look what awesome things we're working on/considering or even just 'nothing new planned but we're going to fix this aspect that could be better or tweak that that you've said is an issue etc..' (between the lines your game/ whatever is still very much alive) they might get the kind of player loyalty FFG seem a little prone to losing. Plus, some sign of some engagement with the forums wouldn't go amiss, especially re broken/incomplete things like the Descent Quest Vault. Most companies of various types where I've used the forums you get the impression they actually engage with their customers (which can also be their audience/fanbase etc) through them, not so much FFG I'm sorry to say.

I'm not knocking FFG / Asmodee with my comments- it's quite the opposite- they make some truly great games (not just limited to the fantasy genre / Terrinoth ones), especially with the great titles they're adding in the current takeover spree. I'm just concerned they're not doing those games the justice they could be doing in terms of generating longer-term sales, new players, and longer-term loyalty to them, RWM and Genesys being the signposts of this, both are feeling a little lacklustre vs what they could be with that concern FFG won't make the most of them and build on their foundations over time. I really hope they will, both could be key players (another accidental pun) in their field, but it needs that longer-term faith and enthusiasm that has made the other big name names so well known and frequently played.

 

I should end by saying I think there is a bit too much FFG-bashing by people on these forums, probably even myself at times- it's been quite a hectic few years in the Asmodee universe, so hopefully things will settle down and they'll start to improve their overall strategies for nurturing their game universes and some of these weaknesses will be ironed out. A lot of us criticize their IP obsessions sometimes at the creative expense of their own IP's but even these are no bad thing if they can find a little more time for their own IP's as well- after all there's no harm in a game company you love making a lot of money from some franchises you're maybe not a fan of as it's good for it's business which hopefully means it stays around and continues to make great games, some of which you are a fan of!

 

If I was giving FFG the half term report / half time team talk kind of feedback: Keep up the good work, but a little more enthusiasm and joined-up longer-term thinking would be appreciated - you make great games but could maybe improve on the player base growth and longevity side of things- making great games that grow to their potential and keep pulling in new players and keeping those players' enthusiasm over many years - have faith in how great (or potentially great) your games are and that you can make them the best go-to games of their type with that longer-term enthusiasm and energy.  Work on your biggest weakness: New game launches, initially your enthusiasm for it seems to be there, a while after launch: fans/players still really enthusiastic for game, can seem like you've tired of it and the enthusiasm for it on the FFG side has gone *smiles*

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4 hours ago, Watercolour Dragon said:

3. Stop all the secrecy paranoia. Yes, you have to keep some things under wraps but FFG seem to have a fear of death regarding telling their fans anything at all. This is perhaps the most dangerous to their business aspect of all as for so many games now there's all kinds of harmful speculation, at the worst end for potential new players it can even be 'it's not worth buying this as it won't be around much longer so I won't get to complete my collection/ find other players/ etc etc.' I'm sure a lot of the negativity is probably wrong- and at times maybe losing them sales- but they never do too good a job of communicating with their fanbase in a time, especially in the social media age, when so many companies do, FFG leave everything up to guesswork, if another company's saying hey look what awesome things we're working on/considering or even just 'nothing new planned but we're going to fix this aspect that could be better or tweak that that you've said is an issue etc..' (between the lines your game/ whatever is still very much alive) they might get the kind of player loyalty FFG seem a little prone to losing. Plus, some sign of some engagement with the forums wouldn't go amiss, especially re broken/incomplete things like the Descent Quest Vault. Most companies of various types where I've used the forums you get the impression they actually engage with their customers (which can also be their audience/fanbase etc) through them, not so much FFG I'm sorry to say.

This is so true. I really can't understand how FFG can keep up their non-interaction with their customers. If anything will be their downfall (besides declining quality, which is also starting to be noticeable), it's this.

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