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KrisWall

Are there any ACTUAL rules issues?

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7 hours ago, KrisWall said:

1. Per the rules, "When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest."

So, your opponent plays Fogbank.  He resolves the card fully.  You're now not able to use creatures to fight on your turn.  You play Anger.  You'd ready the character, but then ignore the part about fighting as that part can't be resolved due to the restriction in place from Fogbank.  "Can't" abilities usually win because they make "Do X" abilities unable to resolve, which causes them to be ignored.

2. If a card gives you a choice, you make the choice and then resolve as much of the ability as possible, ignoring the part that can't be resolved.  If you play Knowledge is Power, you first resolve making the choice.  "I choose to archive a card."  You'd then resolve the choice.  "I attempt to archive a card, but am unable to do so, so I will ignore this part of the card's ability."

Same rule in both cases, really.

Except it's not in the rulebook. And because it's not in the rulebook, you are inferring an effect based on what usually happens in games like this. Where did this expectation come from? The Magic Comprehensive Rules, which explicitly says, in its section called "The Golden Rules of Magic" that "can't" beats "can". Adding that to the rulebook, right under the rule about card effects that contradict the rules win, would be a big help.

Speaking of the other Golden Rule mentioned above, the cards break the rules, except when they don't. Situations where they don't include:

  • The Phase Shift situation on the first player's first turn. The latest version of the Rulebook reads, "First Turn Rule: During the first player’s first turn of the game, that player cannot play or discard more than one card from their hand. Card effects cannot modify this rule." But the First Turn Rule is a rule, so why does this rule beat a card effect? See above. 
  • The Biomatrix Backup ruling is based specifically on the rule beating the card. The rules say that the active player makes all choices; the card says that I, as the controller of the Upgrade, make the choice regardless of whether I am the active player. While I understand the intention of having the rule win in this case (namely, having the non-active player making choices is too much like Magic and can lead to response/counterresponse issues over time as new cards are released), if they are going to make that an immutable rule, it (and every other immutable rule) needs to be called out as such.

There are also cases where an implied equivalency creates potentially weird rulings, such as...

  • The Restringuntus vs. Pitlord/Control the Weak situation is based on an implied equivalency as well as the inferred "can't beat can" Golden Rule. Pitlord and Control the Weak say a player "must" choose a particular house, while Restringuntus says that player "can't" choose a specific house. But if I "must" choose X, why doesn't Restringuntus's ability simply absolve me of my obligation and let me choose something else? Because "must choose X" is interpreted to be equivalent to "can't choose Y, where Y is any house that is not X." Thus, all seven houses can't be chosen, and when combined with the implied "can't beats can," you choose no house.

Exactly what does the "Do as much as you can" rule mean? If The Crucible Online is to be believed, it's inconsistently applied:

  • Can you stun a creature that's already stunned? Maybe. Bigtwig is happy to do so, because it can exhaust the creature as well, and Tremor can do so if there's a neighbor who is unstunned, but Smaaash seems to think that already stunned creatures are ineligible for his Play: ability. The issue seems to boil down to whether you can make a choice that makes no obvious game effect if a choice that does produce a game effect exists. By one interpretation, that would violate the rule, but if the rule only applies to an otherwise legal choice after it is made, then an effect can be quashed in that manner.

There are cases where the same (or clearly equivalent in context) text produces different rulings, such as...

  • Nexus has "Reap: Use an opponent's artifact as if it were yours." This can't use an opponent's artifact that has no Action: or Omni: ability attached to it. (Why would you want to? Maybe your opponent has no creatures out and multiple artifacts, but the only one with a relevant ability is something like Cannon.) Poltergeist is a Action card that reads, "Use an artifact controlled by any player as if it were yours. Destroy that artifact." That can affect an artifact with only constant abilities. What makes one more flexible than the other when applied to an opponent's artifact?

In light of issues such as these, it's better IMO to get a handle on such issues now, while the cards are few and the resulting Keyforge Comprehensive Rulebook will be small. Waiting until 5-6 years of cards are out (and such a resource becomes absolutely necessary instead of incredibly helpful for marshals and judges) will create problems leading up to the task, and a much bigger and messier project when it actually happens.

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11 hours ago, DacoTrilar said:

Except, we know that Overlord Greking's ability triggers after "Destroyed" because of the ruling on Greking killing Bad Penny. So, I'm pretty sure if he kills Dextre, then Dextre will end up on the top of the deck. That's a big problem with Keyforge at the moment, there isn't a well defined timing structure. Also, I really hope that Biomatrix Backup can prevent Dust Imp from providing 2 aember, cause that'd be a nice buff to that card.

It would depend on who the active player is.

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23 minutes ago, Derrault said:

It would depend on who the active player is.

Not really. 

Quote

DESTROYED

When a card is destroyed, it is placed in its owner’s discard pile. If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect resolves automatically when the card is destroyed, immediately before it leaves play.

So Dextre and Bad Penny do their thing before Overlord Greking can even trigger, rendering them immune to its effect.

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10 hours ago, KrisWall said:

I'll answer by using a similar real world example.  I play Control the Weak, telling you that you must pick Brobnar next turn.  I then play Restringutus, telling you that you cannot pick Brobar.  Control the Weak doesn't let you pick Brobnar because of the word "must".  The cannot overrides the must in this case.  In your example, I think the cannot Fight would also override the must Fight.

I think you're using an unrelated scenario to try to make your point.  This isn't an order of operations thing.  It's a cannot will almost always override must thing in this sort of game.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  If both Restringuntus and control the weak target the same house they both take effect, forcing your opponent to play with no active house.  The cannot doesn't override the must, the two work together to create a situation where there is no legal choice.  Crazy town, I know, but welcome to KeyForge.  :)

As an aside, the OP seems to be fairly well disproved at this point, no? 😛

Edited by dperello

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2 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

Not really. 

So Dextre and Bad Penny do their thing before Overlord Greking can even trigger, rendering them immune to its effect.

But why can Greking affect the discard pile, but not the hand/deck? Dextre becomes a new “object” if you will in an out of play area, does any other creature not become the same in the discard pile?

 

again, I agree this is how it should work, but I still don’t see why it does within the rules.

Edited by Palpster

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11 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

In light of issues such as these, it's better IMO to get a handle on such issues now, while the cards are few and the resulting Keyforge Comprehensive Rulebook will be small. Waiting until 5-6 years of cards are out (and such a resource becomes absolutely necessary instead of incredibly helpful for marshals and judges) will create problems leading up to the task, and a much bigger and messier project when it actually happens.

I tend to favour the idea that if you improve the rules, the interactions will become far less frequent where we get confused or have to do anything. 

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9 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

Not really. 

So Dextre and Bad Penny do their thing before Overlord Greking can even trigger, rendering them immune to its effect.

Ah, I didn’t realize Greking said specifically after (as opposed to when/if).

With the Yxilo Bolter, for example, it would matter, because the timing is the same as the destroyed effect, prior to entering the discard pile, (“If this damage destroys that creature, purge it.”)

 

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10 hours ago, Derrault said:

Ah, I didn’t realize Greking said specifically after (as opposed to when/if).

With the Yxilo Bolter, for example, it would matter, because the timing is the same as the destroyed effect, prior to entering the discard pile, (“If this damage destroys that creature, purge it.”)

 

Bolter can't purge penny or dextre either. Destroyed effects specifically happen before the card leaves play (I tend think of it as "before destroyed").

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1 hour ago, saluk64007 said:

Bolter can't purge penny or dextre either. Destroyed effects specifically happen before the card leaves play (I tend think of it as "before destroyed").

When it leaves play is when it’s discarded, the purge happens if the damage would destroy it. Once purged, it’s out of the game, and the destroyed effect is irrelevant. 

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41 minutes ago, Derrault said:

When it leaves play is when it’s discarded, the purge happens if the damage would destroy it. Once purged, it’s out of the game, and the destroyed effect is irrelevant. 

Yeah, we do have an official on that and Bolter doesn’t purge Bad Penny or Dextre. Lokekar has the source better than I.

Kudos to the compendium for hunting all the unofficial official answers down.

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32 minutes ago, Lokekar said:

This was answered in one of the organized play videos. Destroyed effects take place before effects that trigger off of a card being or would be destroyed.

 

Also @saluk64007

In that case Seeker Needle can’t work on Bad Penny either? (The timing language is identical, the only difference being gain 1 aember vis purge card)

 

Edited by Derrault

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5 hours ago, Derrault said:

Also @saluk64007

In that case Seeker Needle can’t work on Bad Penny either? (The timing language is identical, the only difference being gain 1 aember vis purge card)

 

Well... that's awkward...

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8 hours ago, dperello said:

Well... that's awkward...

Right, it also contradicts previous discussion on these kinds of things. It’s been said that the active player makes all the timing decisions, so if there are two mutually exclusive events, active player effectively chooses which happens. 

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Well, it going back to your hand when destroyed prevents it from being purged, but it going back to your hand when destroyed does nothing to prevent gaining an aember? In one case it’s no longer in a state where it can get purged, in the other it still got destroyed to be returned to your hand so you can still get an aember? Question marks are my attempt to rationalize it when I think you’ve made a fair point.

I mean I get it. I was in the camp that thought it should get purged. What do you do? I shrug and keep playing, it’s all in good fun after all.

At any rate all we’ve done is prove there are still issues again.

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14 hours ago, Derrault said:

Also @saluk64007

In that case Seeker Needle can’t work on Bad Penny either? (The timing language is identical, the only difference being gain 1 aember vis purge card)

 

Bolter still procs, only the purge fizzles because penny can't be found. Seeker needle doesn't fizzle, because it doesn't need to find penny to get the aember.

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1 hour ago, saluk64007 said:

Bolter still procs, only the purge fizzles because penny can't be found. Seeker needle doesn't fizzle, because it doesn't need to find penny to get the aember.

Spoken like a true Magic judge... 😏

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2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Right, it also contradicts previous discussion on these kinds of things. It’s been said that the active player makes all the timing decisions, so if there are two mutually exclusive events, active player effectively chooses which happens. 

I think Bad Penny is worded as to happen before she is destroyed as are the others, and thus they return to hand before the purge effect. So there isn't a timing issue that allows the active player to choose. 

In general cards going to your hand or even you deck aren't being helpful, they slow down your ability to draw through the cards in your deck and clutter your hand. Most of the time you want to have your opponent purge her. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 2:14 AM, Palpster said:

But why can Greking affect the discard pile, but not the hand/deck? Dextre becomes a new “object” if you will in an out of play area, does any other creature not become the same in the discard pile?

 

again, I agree this is how it should work, but I still don’t see why it does within the rules.

Once again, Magic has forged the key to this puzzle... 😤 (Sorry, had to do it.) The rule in Magic is that an object can find things that move to other places if it is the only way the ability makes sense. Greking finds destroyed creatures, which, by definition, would be in the discard pile. Hence that is considered the default place to look for them.

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6 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

Bolter still procs, only the purge fizzles because penny can't be found. Seeker needle doesn't fizzle, because it doesn't need to find penny to get the aember.

Which makes no sense at all.

Hand and Discard pile are both out of play locations, not that it matters; ylixo bolter,  AND seeker needle effects occur only if they caused the creature to be destroyed.

And destroyed effects only occur if the creature is destroyed (prior to being discarded). If the Seeker or Bolter required the creature to be discarded, then Penny and Dextre would be immune. But they do not, so they are not.

Edit: @Amanal all destroy effects happen when a creature is destroyer, before the discard. 

Page 10: “If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect resolves automatically when the card is destroyed, immediately before it leaves play.”

 

Edited by Derrault

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Which makes no sense at all.

Hand and Discard pile are both out of play locations, not that it matters; ylixo bolter,  AND seeker needle effects occur only if they caused the creature to be destroyed.

And destroyed effects only occur if the creature is destroyed (prior to being discarded). If the Seeker or Bolter required the creature to be discarded, then Penny and Dextre would be immune. But they do not, so they are not.

Edit: @Amanal all destroy effects happen when a creature is destroyer, before the discard. 

Page 10: “If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect resolves automatically when the card is destroyed, immediately before it leaves play.”

 

Actually, it does matter.

Hand and discard pile are two distinct zones (not locations, as that is a type of artifact card). And because they are distinct (you can't play cards from your discard pile nor can Mimicry copy an action from your opponent's hand), when Yxilo Bolter looks for the Bad Penny it destroyed, it looks in the discard pile, which is where it finds 99% of creatures it destroys. So by implication, that's how Bolter functions: taking a card that it has just put into the discard pile as an indirect result of its ability (it doesn't say "Destroy a creature", but rather "Deal 2 damage to a creature" which the rules then cause to destroy it), and immediately purging it. But in Bad Penny's case, she never gets there; her ability replaces the "send to discard pile" part of the rule with "return to hand" and Yxilo Bolter rummages around saying, "I'm sure I sent a Bad Penny here; where is it? Oh well, move on."

Seeker Needle, by comparison, checks only that the rule that destroys something as a result of its ability was invoked. It doesn't care where the Bad Penny ends up; just that the rule was followed. (This technically also happens with Yxilo Bolter as well; it's just that the followup effect tries to search the wrong place.) So the followup effect of gain 1 Aember happens.

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