Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ForceSensitive

Too much swarm tactics?

Recommended Posts

I'm seeing a ton of I6 chain swarm tactics saquads, all gunning to get that first alpha off in my local meta. Anyone else having similar issues? To me it's about as common as old VI. Just fought my fourth one tonight in like two months. Not upset or anything, I won and all. I feel like they can be beat consistently. But I'm not sure how much I want to see that as a meta staple either, when there's already a hard push to get to I6 with when one ship in the squad anyway. Any opinions? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont see it as a major problem. They are shooting first, not moving last. They are giving up like 6+pts in their squad for that. Not to mention they have to fly in formation at range 1 of each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

I'm seeing a ton of I6 chain swarm tactics saquads, all gunning to get that first alpha off in my local meta. Anyone else having similar issues? To me it's about as common as old VI. Just fought my fourth one tonight in like two months. Not upset or anything, I won and all. I feel like they can be beat consistently. But I'm not sure how much I want to see that as a meta staple either, when there's already a hard push to get to I6 with when one ship in the squad anyway. Any opinions? 

i6. pssffttt. i7 Null Cluster Hotshot swarm is where its at, only falling back to a measly i6 (QD) when Null's shields bite it. (this is actually common currently in my local meta)

Like you said, its annoying but beatable. Knowing when and how not to joust is a skill you need regardless of swarm tactics!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

What some people are getting wrong in 2.0 is that Swarm Tactics only works from one ship to the next in ascending order up to initiative 6.

 

For example, start of engagement round 4 ship X-wing T-65 squad;

Initiative 1 pass: Cavern Angels Zealot has no ST

Initiative 3 pass; Red Squadron vet activates ST. He can pass his initiative 3 to the Zealot. 

Initiative 4 pass; Garven Dreis activates ST, passes as above. 

Initiative 6 pass; Wedge activates ST and passes as above. 

 

So you could end up here in this scenario is with two 6's, two 4's at best. 

 

It is not passing init 6 to another swarm tactics ace generic to pass another 6 initiative to another and another for four ships initiative 6's. This is what many are getting wrong here. 

 

Just a FYI. 

According to the Ability Que rules the player decides which order the abilities that share a trigger are applied (in this case "At the start of the Engagement Phase). So chaining Swarm Tactics works exactly as we've presented. Page 3 of the Rules Reference, top left. Thankfully it doesn't synergize with Roark's since his ability states engage at instead of treat as.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Cloaker said:

What some people are getting wrong in 2.0 is that Swarm Tactics only works from one ship to the next in ascending order up to initiative 6.

Where are you getting that from? 

Firstly, as @Hiemfire says, Swarm Tactics has the same timing for all ships it's equipped on, and the rules say that effects with the same timing that all affect only one player's ships may be done in whatever order the player prefers.

Secondly, even if that wasn't the case and things did have to move in a strict Initiative order... you're in the engagement phase at this point and therefore everything would start at the highest Initiative and move down. Y'know, like everything else in the engagement phase. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cloaker said:

What some people are getting wrong in 2.0 is that Swarm Tactics only works from one ship to the next in ascending order up to initiative 6.

 

For example, start of engagement round 4 ship X-wing T-65 squad;

Initiative 1 pass: Cavern Angels Zealot has no ST

Initiative 3 pass; Red Squadron vet activates ST. He can pass his initiative 3 to the Zealot. 

Initiative 4 pass; Garven Dreis activates ST, passes as above. 

Initiative 6 pass; Wedge activates ST and passes as above. 

 

So you could end up here in this scenario is with two 6's, two 4's at best. 

 

It is not passing init 6 to another swarm tactics ace generic to pass another 6 initiative to another and another for four ships initiative 6's. This is what many are getting wrong here. 

 

Just a FYI. 

I think you’re thinking about the rules for “Systems Phase” effects, which differ from other phases. System Phase does go in ascending Initiative order. Other timing windows do not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Cloaker said:

What some people are getting wrong in 2.0 is that Swarm Tactics only works from one ship to the next in ascending order up to initiative 6.

It is not passing init 6 to another swarm tactics ace generic to pass another 6 initiative to another and another for four ships initiative 6's. This is what many are getting wrong here. 

Just a FYI. 

My understanding is that Initiative matters only in four parts of the game (Rules Reference, p.12)

  • Placement During Setup (Ascending)
  • Abilities in the Systems Phase (Ascending)
  • Activating in the Activation Phase (Ascending)
  • Engaging in the Engagement Phase (Descending)

Other times (start of XYZ phase, etc), only first player/second player matters.  Or in the case of post-attack abilities, defending/attacking player matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm wrong. Was up late last night and got fuzzy headed. 

"At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step." 

 

So yeah, Swarm Tactics is still within ability queue at player's discretion. Carry on. 

Edited by Cloaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But is it just the new VI? That's the question I'm asking myself. Yes it's beatable, yeah it can be disrupted, yeah whatever. But will we soon find that ST is just an archetype that will require consideration in the list build phase to unseemly extents? I was hoping for more abilities like Tubbs where your effect for your initiative is cross balanced. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Swarm Tactics is a critical card.

Without it a # of really interesting Mid-Low Initiative Ships dont have a way of justifying their Point Cost. 

I like the way it works alot. 

Its Range 1 Restriction makes it risky to use against better players. 

Where it gets a bit tilted is with Protorp Alpha lists. Particularly if you are flying against it with a list of those mid tier Initiative pilots.

There are several things that just can’t cope with a 4 ship I5/6 alpha.

Now, certainly, forcing hem to break formation can be a very effective counter to this, and indeed needs to be your plan. Sometimes this is easier said than done, as it often requires either a maneuverable flanking threat or a ship that can move fast and try and force blocks from outside range 3 in the initial engagement.

Though I’ve also seen it used in a surprisingly effective 6 TIE/ln Swarm where almost all ships shot at I5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're seeing a swarm of swarm tactics, then?

 

Anyway, I 6 on shooting isn't really a huge deal. You don't get to move after the opponent, or benefit from later activation ease of target locks, and are shackled to r1 of a support ship

You'd have to jump through some hoops to make the alpha potential even worthwhile (need mods)

Only list Ive made that I'd try is swarm rebel Rau carting Dutch around. His I 6 coordinate gives you two I 6 target locks (Dutch + Dutch ability) to enable I 6 protons (Swarm Dutch and native I 6 wedge)

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a strong counter to the current meta of just spamming undercosted I5 and I6 pilots that kill you before you can shoot even when all they do is joust you. 

It's not like VI because the problem with VI is that it let ships go above what was naturally possible in the game. Swarm Tactics can't take you above I6. Well it couldn't until Null showed up. First Order might end up breaking swarm tactics. Even without Null, they still have the cheapest I6s in the game whereas before that was one of Rebels few honors with Wedge and Fenn Rau.

I'm surprised this hasn't shown up yet.

"Null" (31)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Shield Upgrade (8)

Omega Squadron Expert (36)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

Omega Squadron Expert (36)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

Zeta Squadron Survivor (34)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

Total: 199

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2019 at 7:40 PM, ficklegreendice said:

So you're seeing a swarm of swarm tactics, then?

 

Anyway, I 6 on shooting isn't really a huge deal. You don't get to move after the opponent, or benefit from later activation ease of target locks, and are shackled to r1 of a support ship

You'd have to jump through some hoops to make the alpha potential even worthwhile (need mods)

Only list Ive made that I'd try is swarm rebel Rau carting Dutch around. His I 6 coordinate gives you two I 6 target locks (Dutch + Dutch ability) to enable I 6 protons (Swarm Dutch and native I 6 wedge)

 

I tried: Wedge with ST, R3, Proton Torps; Airen Cracken with ST, Concussion Missiles; Dutch with ST, R4, Proton Torps; and a Bandit with Concussion Missiles. 4 ordnance shots, 2 double-modded, at I6.

The alpha strike was excellent, and could wipe eg Redline or Nym off the board before they could shoot. But if the rest of their list killed Wedge, the list collapsed very quickly. It worked better when Wedge was flanking, letting the others shoot at I5 and keeping Wedge safe for the opening engagement. But, overall, good players could outmanoeuvre the Z95s and Y-Wing and it lost more often than it won - except when the opponent hadn't faced it before and didn't realise what it did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...