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If 5 T-65s was supposed to be too good, why isn't 5 Khirax's a thing?

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12 hours ago, SOTL said:

5 T-65s would be rubbish.

Why?

They demonstrably weren't at the tail end of 1e, and the chassis has only improved in 2e while, in general, the power curve has been flattened.

Is the difference literally just FAA?

Or is it maybe that the list would specifically be weak against the current meta?

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26 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Why?

They demonstrably weren't at the tail end of 1e, and the chassis has only improved in 2e while, in general, the power curve has been flattened.

Is the difference literally just FAA?

Or is it maybe that the list would specifically be weak against the current meta?

 

He just likes to rustle jimmies.

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For me, what hurts a 5K only list over a 5X is the single shield, all but guaranteeing the Kirzxccvb is taking crits from the first salvo on, leaving you to use your action flipping over crits, or just dealing with the consequences of a maimed ship. Even with barrel roll, they still aren't as agile as and X-wing with servomotor s foils.

Reducing the Kirzxcvbv by 1-2 points is worthless, there is nothing in the mod slot at that point level that would improve it, assuming it is the 3-mod slot customization was supposed to make the ship special to begin with.

Reduce the list to a 4K, you at least have some room for (expensive) shield upgrades, maybe bump them up to Black Sun Aces and/or a named pilot or 2. 

 

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2 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

But... that's a Hydra from Magic: the Gathering...

Progenitus is a Grat Old One, more or less.  It doesn’t sound like it’s from Ikea, though.

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1 hour ago, HanScottFirst said:

For the K-Fighter, I could see the Vaksai title coming back in the re-release. Something, like, "modifications cost 1 less point" or "pay for modifications as if you were agility 0" or something like that.

Problem with this is modifications are lame. If that was how it worked, you'd just have Kihraxz stacking Hull+Shield Upgrade all the time. 

Basically the only interesting mod is Afterburners. They've got barrel roll inherently and can't take Engine Upgrade, and the quirky mods like Pulsed Ray Shield don't exist. They're meant to be customizable, but their only option is stacking health.

Until more interesting mods drop or they get a repackage with a bunch of config options, the whole Vaksai gimmick is kinda dead.

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3 hours ago, JohnBoo said:

 

3 hours ago, JohnBoo said:

Reducing the Kirzxcvbv by 1-2 points is worthless, there is nothing in the mod slot at that point level that would improve it, assuming it is the 3-mod slot customization was supposed to make the ship special to begin with.

Reducing by 1-2 points is irrelevant regarding 5x Khirax Squad, but it's not at all overall. 

It opens lot of possibilities: like 3 x 38 Cartel Marauders+ Guri etc. 

48 points Talonbane would be also decent for the cost. Now it's not. 

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Just now, Sir Orrin said:

That's "trash" or "garbage" translated from British. 

 

To be fair, a more accurate translation would be, "I respectfully put forth the opinion that the aforementioned vessel offers an insufficient advantage to be elevated above other available options".  For the sake of brevity, it's easier to just say that they'd be rubbish.

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I think the big thing is the one shield and no 1 straight. For being slow without boost, 5 straight, or even the 4 straight as blue they should really have a 1 straight in my opinion. (I kind of don't want to fly anything that doesn't have a 1 straight though.) 

I played a 5 Kihraxz list this week and had fun with it on dreadful green dice. I liked it since it didn't have any "book-keeping" with regards to minding range between ships or obstacles and such. No complicated combos or linked actions or wondering whether or not to open or close s-foils. Easy to set-up since you only have the pilot cards and 1 shield. Interesting but easy to fly really. 

I don't have a lot of confidence in it for cutthroat circumstances because it is hard to get double mods and you're eating criticals so quickly. 

Dropping them down to 39 each would let you give them all inertial dampers but you only have the one shield.

Giving up the fifth ship to add aces or upgrades leaves them in a same but different place. 

Still seems worth practicing with. Especially, as a I like the ship design. Might give a list with the four named pilots a go. Not sure how to use up those last fifteen points though. A couple of cluster missiles and a talent for Talonbane? 

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7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Yes and no. When you get to the bottom end of the market, 1 point becomes increasingly important not because the ship in isolation is that much better or worse proportionately, but because it takes you over the 'threshold' of "...and I get another ship".

In the context of this thread, fitting an extra ship is obviously what I was referring to. There is nothing special magical about 5 ships that makes BSEs good all of a sudden. Meta lists would eat 5 lowPS t65s for lunch, then people would be yelling "the only things holding us back now is blah blah blah". In the ace meta, lowPS ships without built-in synergy/econ (e.g. barrage bombers) are just bad. If you think the power gap between generics and meta lists is equivalent to the difference between XXXXY and XXXXX, then you just are delusional.

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Just now, svelok said:

it's also curious why TIE swarms aren't a thing

Trajectory proton bombs R U I N them.

And in general, even with Iden, they're super fragile , and Crack Shot being pushed down to bullseye only wrecks a lot of their former punch.

Plus, they take a LOT of work to fly well, and there are much easier things that are just as good if not better.

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5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Trajectory proton bombs R U I N them.

And in general, even with Iden, they're super fragile , and Crack Shot being pushed down to bullseye only wrecks a lot of their former punch.

Plus, they take a LOT of work to fly well, and there are much easier things that are just as good if not better.

What are the TIE swarm players playing instead?

(I know what Imperials in general are playing, I mean specifically the people who enjoyed 1.0 TIE swarms)

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Just now, svelok said:

it's also curious why TIE swarms aren't a thing

I just won a tournament with 5 TIEs and Lambda with Vader and Sloane crew. Not a conventional all TIE Swarm but still a TIE swarm for sure. 

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I feel like it's worth pointing out: Flight Assist Astromech was crazy OP.  The limitation of not having ships in arc was clever and interesting, but the power of no-stress boosts and barrel rolls in addition to a normal action was immense.

I don't necessarily think it'd be fine for 5 T-65s without them, but the power of FAA was a considerable part of why X-Wing swarms were good.

But not the only part.  One of the best X-Wing swarms I faced used Biggs, M9-G8 Tarn, Jess Pava (who I think had the FAA), and a Chopper TLT BTL-A4 Y-Wing.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

What are the TIE swarm players playing instead?

(I know what Imperials in general are playing, I mean specifically the people who enjoyed 1.0 TIE swarms)

I think a lot switched to heavy swarms.  Multiple Interceptors or Strikers.  Or perhaps scum swarms.  They have a bunch of neat tricks (Quadjumper stuff, or Mining TIEs, perhaps with Outer Rim Smuggler granting them the ability to still shoot while on rocks...

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Plus, they take a LOT of work to fly well, and there are much easier things that are just as good if not better.

This is the biggest part, I think.  It's so much work to fly a lot of ships.  TIE Swarm isn't radically above the power curve, but it takes a massive amount of concentration to pull off.

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15 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The lack of boost is a huge point against ks in general. I wish they'd been given boost rather than roll, both for this reason and to give them a bit more of a distinct feel from the scyk. 

Talonbane in particular would love boost (although graz probably prefers roll). Adding boost (even a red one) would also solve the heinous crime of engine upgrade, which shows a kihraxz but can't be equipped on a kihraxz

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22 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Why?

They demonstrably weren't at the tail end of 1e, and the chassis has only improved in 2e while, in general, the power curve has been flattened.

Is the difference literally just FAA?

Or is it maybe that the list would specifically be weak against the current meta?

 

FAA was probably the second best upgrade in the game after R2-D2. And 5 X-Wings, while not awful, were a downgrade from 4 with upgrades.

 

FFG overprices generics almost every single time, and to be honest I'm not sure why that is (maybe they're better in kitchen table x-wing, where people don't know how to abuse high ini values?). And whereas the X-Wing chassis got only slightly nerfed between editions, the Kihraxz took a massive hit- it is almost as bad as it was before Guns for Hire.

 

At the end of the day, I'm mostly just sad they removed Vaksai. Discount on everything was one of the coolest ideas they've had in 1st edition, and it wasn't even a very powerful ability.

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5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yah, a red boost would have made those stupid amounts of mod slots actually useful.

Yup.  Isn't it great that the card art on engine upgrade is a Kihraxz??? :P    Maybe there is hope they add a red boost?

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The short answer to this is that meta's take time to develop, especially when we have all of this new stuff to sort through and if you're going to a tournament to win, would you take the risk on 5 Kasdkjasldkjasldjasdjaskdj or just fly that tie swarm or Aces list that you know works well?

As is, I do think Kaqs;dlkasldk;asldk;asl are a good 3 dice platform for scum at close to a great cost. 3 of them for 120 gives you some good options and the swarm version (3x kaskjaskdkasdj, 2x quads, and 1x MG tie or z95) seems decent. Just pairing them with Fenn isn't a terrible idea, though as noted they get PS killed and can get focused down quickly if you're not careful.

With that in mind, if they dropped a few points it wouldn't be the end of the world and could open up some interesting partners. Quads are likely to go up, while z95s should probably go down (paying extra points for slots is still dumb and losing an init to boot is just salt in the wound), so if generic scum swarms start to make headway, you'd have room to play with. 

Drea has the potential to bust them wide open if they get too cheap - if players start to figure out better ways to use her, I could see Kasldnjaskldjlasdjlaskdjlaskj becoming a thing. 3 attack dice backed up by 6 health is nothing to sniff at.

PS - yes I know I could just learn how to the spell the ships name but at this point I've committed to "K-hit a bunch of keys" and I don't want to change. I recommend trying it - it's a lot of fun

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