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Sir13scott

Error in Quick Builds?

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2 minutes ago, Sir13scott said:

The Trandosian Slaver has hot shot gunner equipped and I’m assuming it does nothing? Also Rigged cargo chute displayed as mod. 

The quick builds of lots of ships are a mess. Even new ones like the resistance A-wing has upgrades the ship cannot actually use in game. outmaneuver on a turret arc does nothing 

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20 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

It's really annoying when you try to explain to people that Outmaneuver doesn't work on the RZ-2s and they always respond with "well then why would FFG put it on the quickbuild card?".

😒

I play the quick builds as if everything works, but yeah, they are pretty bad for actually learning what works in regular play.

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I think one of the YVs also has either outmaneuver or fearless, which it can't use. Ello has elusive, which he can use but it's terrible on him since it doesn't work with his ability and his ability is not optional

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On 1/9/2019 at 1:08 PM, Caduceus01 said:

The quick builds of lots of ships are a mess. Even new ones like the resistance A-wing has upgrades the ship cannot actually use in game. outmaneuver on a turret arc does nothing 

No way. That turret arc is in front that HAS to count as a primary arc.

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On 1/9/2019 at 8:29 PM, Tvboy said:

It's really annoying when you try to explain to people that Outmaneuver doesn't work on the RZ-2s and they always respond with "well then why would FFG put it on the quickbuild card?".

😒

Did not check the quickbuilds but do they include Homing or Cluster Missiles? Those are technically Front arc attacks and Outmaneuver doesn't specify primary.

latest?cb=20180604183408

Edited by Polda

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5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nope, but one of them also includes Proton Rockets, which ALSO doesn't trigger Outmanoeuvre.

Was there a ruling made specifically for HLC / Proton rockets which have the bullseye requirement? Is a bullseye attack also a front arc attack? 

Note: yeah the quickbuild likely has an error but I'm still curious, in case someone tries to argue outmaneuver works with bullseye weapons a I need to back up a ruling on this in a tournament

From the rules

The bullseye arc is indicated by Icon arc bullseye. This arc is found inside the Icon arc standard front; if something is in a ship's Icon arc bullseye arc, it is also in its Icon arc standard front arc.

Edited by Polda

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2 minutes ago, Polda said:

Was there a ruling made specifically for HLC / Proton rockets which have the bullseye requirement? Is a bullseye attack also a front arc attack?

The bullseye arc is indicated by Icon arc bullseye. This arc is found inside the Icon arc standard front; if something is in a ship's Icon arc bullseye arc, it is also in its Icon arc standard front arc.

No.  That just means a ship in a bullseye arc isn't OUT of the front arc.  it doesn't make a l arc attack into a V arc attack.

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The A-Wing/Outmaneuver ruling is just the flip side of the Kavil/turret ruling.

Kavil gets an extra dice when firing his turret forward because it's a [rotate arc] attack not a [primary arc] attack, even if it's happening in the front arc.  Outmaneuver doesn't trigger on A-Wings for the same reason - they don't have a [primary arc] weapon they have a [rotate arc] weapon.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's stupid. That they'd put it on there in the quickbuild means it's clearly meant to be able to be used.

Or it means that the person who wrote the quickbuilds doesn't understand the rules, or intended that the quick builds would not obey the normal rules.

This wouldn't be the first time FFG designers have made mistakes with their own rules, and I do get the feeling that the quick builds were never exactly the highest priority.

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6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Or it means that the person who wrote the quickbuilds doesn't understand the rules, or intended that the quick builds would not obey the normal rules.

This wouldn't be the first time FFG designers have made mistakes with their own rules, and I do get the feeling that the quick builds were never exactly the highest priority.

Sure but... hh, nevermind.

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That entire V symbol is frustrating as heck.   Means entirely different things depending on context - and what they SHOULD have done is given certain ships the "FIXED FRONT" keyword or made a separate symbol that means "FIXED FRONT" considering there is so much nonsense and confusion between a weapon that happens to face front vs a weapon that can only face front.  

 

Example - Look at Dengar, now give him the Punishing One title... NOW equip him with Fearless.  

3 different cards, 3 printed "V" arc symbols.   All of them mean something completely different.   It's absurd.   I cover this game and I can't even keep up with all the nonsense.  It makes me not want to play X-Wing anymore.  

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3 hours ago, Crabbok said:

That entire V symbol is frustrating as heck.   Means entirely different things depending on context - and what they SHOULD have done is given certain ships the "FIXED FRONT" keyword or made a separate symbol that means "FIXED FRONT" considering there is so much nonsense and confusion between a weapon that happens to face front vs a weapon that can only face front.  

 

Example - Look at Dengar, now give him the Punishing One title... NOW equip him with Fearless.  

3 different cards, 3 printed "V" arc symbols.   All of them mean something completely different.   It's absurd.   I cover this game and I can't even keep up with all the nonsense.  It makes me not want to play X-Wing anymore.  

Huh, I guess I don’t read it that way.  The V arc symbol means the exact same thing in each one.   The difference is the additional condition in each attached to that symbol (primary attack, defender, attacker) .   That’s really no different than first edition.

 

 

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13 hours ago, AlexW said:

Huh, I guess I don’t read it that way.  The V arc symbol means the exact same thing in each one.   The difference is the additional condition in each attached to that symbol (primary attack, defender, attacker) .   That’s really no different than first edition.

 

 

Look at Fearless.  It says "V Primary attack" - According to the rules, Dengar's turret is a primary weapon, so it meets THAT requirement, and when the turret is pointed forward it's both a Turret arc, AND a forward arc, however, it doesn't interact with Fearless because it's not a Fixed Front weapon, it's a Primary, a V (when forward), and a Turret.   I mean honestly it's literally more confusing than trying to figure out what my wife means when she says she wants ME to pick the place we go out for dinner.  

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12 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

Look at Fearless.  It says "V Primary attack" - According to the rules, Dengar's turret is a primary weapon, so it meets THAT requirement, and when the turret is pointed forward it's both a Turret arc, AND a forward arc, however, it doesn't interact with Fearless because it's not a Fixed Front weapon, it's a Primary, a V (when forward), and a Turret.   I mean honestly it's literally more confusing than trying to figure out what my wife means when she says she wants ME to pick the place we go out for dinner.  

It's NOT a V when forward.  It's attacking things IN the V, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a [single turret] weapon.

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2 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Look at Fearless.  It says "V Primary attack" - According to the rules, Dengar's turret is a primary weapon, so it meets THAT requirement, and when the turret is pointed forward it's both a Turret arc, AND a forward arc, however, it doesn't interact with Fearless because it's not a Fixed Front weapon, it's a Primary, a V (when forward), and a Turret.   I mean honestly it's literally more confusing than trying to figure out what my wife means when she says she wants ME to pick the place we go out for dinner.  

My experience in interpreting these cards has been nowhere near as complex (though I don't want to say that FFG always does a great job with card wordings:  see "grappling struts").    If you want to argue there is confusion around the other terms or the way they interact, that's fine, but I haven't had quite the same experience.      

 In your specific case, the punishing one title and fearless read differently to me.    The way I would describe the issue you bring up is something like: Dengar's primary attack is a turret arc that can fire out the front, and his ability, along with the punishing one title trigger when he shoots his turret arc out the front.   (IE the weapon is never "both" a turret and forward arc).

 

 

Edited by AlexW

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It's from Page 4 of the RRG - It define the 4 standard arcs as, Forward, Left, Right, and Rear. 

The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a [Turret symbol] in addition to still being a standard arc

 

 

Implied to me that a turret, pointed forward, counts as TWO things.  that Turret Symbol, AND that Forward Symbol.  Apparently that's not the case, so I don't know why they even put that line in the RRG.  

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12 hours ago, Crabbok said:

It's from Page 4 of the RRG - It define the 4 standard arcs as, Forward, Left, Right, and Rear. 

The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a [Turret symbol] in addition to still being a standard arc

 

 

Implied to me that a turret, pointed forward, counts as TWO things.  that Turret Symbol, AND that Forward Symbol.  Apparently that's not the case, so I don't know why they even put that line in the RRG.  

I can kind of see that confusion, but I think it’s to indicate that those still count as arcs for any rules that might apply (for example outmaneuver).    The sentence before also says all ships have four standard arcs, but again that’s actually for rules clarity to indicate that even ships without V attacks still have arcs for rules that might discuss “arcs” in the more general sense and not specifically firing arcs.

Honestly, I wonder if some of this is due to experience with the previous game rules.   I’ve run into that occasionally myself in other instances.

Edited by AlexW

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