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4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

At some point the irrational arguments against Hyperspace deserve nothing but mockery. I fully support their mockery because all the points were made and yet the whining keeps on. And I say that as someone enjoying extended more for ship choices, and doing better in extended. It is not even a question anymore that Hyperspace was necessary and better. The shared agreement between almost all 'big names' could make people think that they might be correct. Or you can reach that conclusion on your own.

 

Besides, it was one of the best episodes in quite some time, truly outstanding.

So, sink to their level of bad behavior? Come on man, you know where that leads. Flame wars that don’t end with both sides ending up equally petty and caked in mud. 

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Just now, SOTL said:

But it's so much fun, Jan!

Which is why I pity you. You are exactly like the people you argue against. You may stand for something different, but it is obscured by the mud you have wallowed in. So, have your fun, because you sure as heck ain't doing your side of the debate any good. 

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I don't see any true consensus yet about hyperspace format, despite what some may claim. As for me, I greatly prefer extended currently, but I have some hope for hyperspace. Wave 3 + a points rebalancing means the future is always in motion. I just want things to be sorted out faster. If X-wing is in disarray for the entirety of 2019... That will not be good for the long term prospects of this community.

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Just now, SabineKey said:

So, sink to their level of bad behavior? Come on man, you know where that leads. Flame wars that don’t end with both sides ending up equally petty and caked in mud. 

It's always the same people though. I'm not talking about those who have reasonable concerns (which exist!). I'm talking about this horribly irrational reaction, the inability to see beyond personal preference. They are never content provider in any sort or form. I'm not saying people have to be. Just that I am willing to listen to people who have interesting things to say and deliver stuff that pulls them up, even if they sink back to that level - some more, some less often. However, I am not willing to listen to people who are only ever complaining. And not good, reasonable complaints, because that would qualify for "interesting things to say". No, I'm talking about the cesspool of irrational BS that's being invented out of thin air due to some speculation, just because they want to be angry.

Those get nothing but mockery from me, if I even display their ignored comments for some stupid reason, and I am fully in support of mocking that behavior.

For example, I was thinking about starting a thread on the topic that could be interesting: "Defend the format that you strongly dislike and explain to the others how it is beneficial for the game" But those that would need the thought exercise are not capable of doing that, and those who are don't need it. So I don't bother. Because the debate is over.

Every once in a while I like to get dirty and caked in mud. I don't have anything to lose here. If my words can't stand on their own merit then I better shut up anyway. And if they can then it's everyones own decision how they take the bit of mud. I understand that I could do better and not get that frustrated by the misguided outrage. At least the vast majority of the games I play are very enjoyable for both of us.

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2 hours ago, Nohwear said:

Sadly most competitive scenes have those people who try to game the system for an auto win button.

That’s not sad.  That’s the definition of a competitive scene.  If that’s not your thing, fine, but it sounds like you are complaining that folks in the competitive scene are being competitive.

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34 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

Also, one last note on “Kraytisms”. Dropping the Kaefabe(sp?) for a minute. I’ll publically day that aside from Dión, Mu0n, a couple others, NO ONE is doing more for the X-Wing community than @Brunas and he deserves more recognition. They don’t do a Patreon and are constantly giving to charity. They like to poke fun too, but as a whole the Krayts are more wholesome than most of what I see in miniature Gaming (rekt). If I use their mannerisms it’s because they are great at making memes and spreading them around the community. The kraytventing is real. And nothing is malicious or targeted, unless you’re a terrible person and deserve it (which thankfully doesn’t exist much in our community). 

I love me some Krayt, but their book club is not accessible and their memes, when missing the Krayts' warmth (it's there, they're just pretending it's not) and laid back attitudes, can seem downright aggressive. It's very much their group's dynamics and others copying it rarely get it right.

Due to my sons' waning interest in X-wing, I'm down to listening to podcasts almost just for fun (crossing my fingers they'll come back to it), and that's just the Mynocks, the Krayts, and Millenium Condor (who has also gone Krayt-lite, probably due to over exposure to @catachanninja).

Over the last year+ you, @Rytackle, have taken on more and more Kraytness and it may grate for some as it's not "Mynock" enough and some people are opposed to Kraytness in whatever form it takes. It's just a different style and it stands out. My suggestion is more cross-over episodes, the styles mesh well together (IMO), as the Krayts and @Mynock Delta both enjoy data-backed analysis, but differently. You should also keep your own specific styles in standard episodes since some people have very clear (and loud) preferences. 

My 2c.

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's always the same people though. I'm not talking about those who have reasonable concerns (which exist!). I'm talking about this horribly irrational reaction, the inability to see beyond personal preference. They are never content provider in any sort or form. I'm not saying people have to be. Just that I am willing to listen to people who have interesting things to say and deliver stuff that pulls them up, even if they sink back to that level - some more, some less often. However, I am not willing to listen to people who are only ever complaining. And not good, reasonable complaints, because that would qualify for "interesting things to say". No, I'm talking about the cesspool of irrational BS that's being invented out of thin air due to some speculation, just because they want to be angry.

Those get nothing but mockery from me, if I even display their ignored comments for some stupid reason, and I am fully in support of mocking that behavior.

For example, I was thinking about starting a thread on the topic that could be interesting: "Defend the format that you strongly dislike and explain to the others how it is beneficial for the game" But those that would need the thought exercise are not capable of doing that, and those who are don't need it. So I don't bother. Because the debate is over.

Every once in a while I like to get dirty and caked in mud. I don't have anything to lose here. If my words can't stand on their own merit then I better shut up anyway. And if they can then it's everyones own decision how they take the bit of mud. I understand that I could do better and not get that frustrated by the misguided outrage. At least the vast majority of the games I play are very enjoyable for both of us.

I'm well aware of those people. They are the reason I don't post here as often. Because engaging them is not constructive or worthwhile. They just use your words to paint you as the bad guy, further dirtying up the point you were trying to make.

If you find satisfaction in the mud, okay. You do you. But not everyone knows the history or context that led to your mocking. Just that you were one of the people slinging mud. That colors people's perceptions and can led to damaging your side of the debate. Thanks to certain "defenders" of Hyperspace, I'm less hyped about the format, their behavior is that bad. 

To be clear, I can't change your behavior. If you honestly think mocking those you consider whiners as worthwhile and the right thing to do, then that's on you. But I do suggest you consider your ultimate goal. Is it to have fun in the mud? Or is it to promote your side of an issue? Becuase those two are more in conflict than is seems people here think.

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6 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

pot-and-kettke.jpg

All I've seen you do over the past few days on the forums is complain about people criticizing Hyperspace, calling them names and ******* about their bad attitude.

Just put him on ignore. He inserts his tude into everything and if I didnt put him on ignore I'd have just left the forums outright. Cause again he injects his **** attitude into everything. Even when he makes a good point he couches it in an insult. Cause "it's fun to be mean to people" paraphrasing him from another thread.

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11 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

pot-and-kettke.jpg

All I've seen you do over the past few days on the forums is complain about people criticizing Hyperspace, calling them names and ******* about their bad attitude.

Yep!

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1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

 For what you say to be true, it seems as though there are lists in Hyperspace that are not good enough to hang in Extended (being countered by popular Extended stuff) , but better have a real advantage vs Boba/Fenn.  And there must be more than one squad like this.  It's not impossible, certainly, but it's a statement that merits some further elaboration.

I know it’s off topic, but I’m super interested in this side conversation between biophysical and SOTL about whether Boba/Fenn is good in Hyperspace.  When two of the best posters around strongly disagree, there is bound to be some interesting dialogue to be had.

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1 hour ago, Rytackle said:

Hey Ryan here,

So a couple things. First off, we always really appreciate feedback. Podcasting weekly is always a learning experience and we really don’t get a good gauge on if people like/dislike what we’re doing as it’s happening. 

It never feels good when you think you’re being made fun of (I think I know as well as any...) If extended is your favorite format, you like it more, and I offended you then I am very sorry. 

However, I want to make it clear, that Dee and I have poked fun at the hot topics going on since we started the podcast. I’m known for saying once that Miranda Nym players are “Dead to me”. Dee has called out Ghost Fenn and TLT players. It’s just something we do, (we even had a whole beef segment people seemed to like for a while until they didn’t.)

I don’t want to say “you didn’t get the joke”, because clearly I’m not good at setting up a punchline, but what who I was trying to make fun of were players who are giving “faux outrage” about Hyperspace. What I mean by this, are people moaning and complaining that they can’t fly Turr Phenir, but never would’ve ever flown him anyway because they instead choose the most broken available combo. 

Ive said ON THE PODCAST that I have nothing against people like Starslinger72, who want open variety in their choices, and will exercise those options. I just don’t like disengenuine people, and there are a whole lot of them. I have a couple locals who I’ve heard complain about Hyperspace, only to bring Redline, Soontir, Whisper to an event. 

So if I offended you (not the OP) for not likeing Hyperspace simply because you want an excuse to complain about something, then I’m not sorry and you can stay mad. I don’t care. 

Also, one last note on “Kraytisms”. Dropping the Kaefabe(sp?) for a minute. I’ll publically day that aside from Dión, Mu0n, a couple others, NO ONE is doing more for the X-Wing community than @Brunas and he deserves more recognition. They don’t do a Patreon and are constantly giving to charity. They like to poke fun too, but as a whole the Krayts are more wholesome than most of what I see in miniature Gaming (rekt). If I use their mannerisms it’s because they are great at making memes and spreading them around the community. The kraytventing is real. And nothing is malicious or targeted, unless you’re a terrible person and deserve it (which thankfully doesn’t exist much in our community). 

In summation, I love our podcast. I’ve been working my butt off in order to improve the content, clarify our voices, and ensure it’s VALUABLE to people. Yet, I totally understand that we aren’t for everyone. Arguments can for sure be made that Radio TCX, Gold Squadron Podcast, The Birminham Barons, and several others are better than us. But I’m going to keep doing it because I enjoy it and the community makes it worth it to me  

 

 

Thanks for the well-thought reply!

Maybe I did not "get the joke."  Granted.  The character of this episode's mocking of other people just seemed... the word I am looking for is not malicious, but it is definitely tending toward that end of the spectrum.  Laughing off Nym/Mirandas is one thing - it is clear what you are doing.  I guess that same kind of "tongue-in-cheek" approach did not come across this time - in my ears, anyhow.  It seemed more addressed toward the people as opposed to addressed toward their ideas.  It might be that the tone and tenor of some of the voices that have come to your defense in this thread colored how you and Dee's words were heard.  I can't discount the possibility.  

I am not offended by those who are all about Hyperspace - I hope it is a good format.  I think there are folks who are over optimistic about the likelihood that FFG can create something balanced, and I do not think it will be a panacea.  It will be a set of rules and boundaries to work within, as is any other format.  I think that one of the reason "competitive" folks favor it is because they will have an easier time "solving" it, in terms of knowing what to prepare for across the table.  I'm not good enough to worry about solving anything - I just need to keep my ships off the obstacles :)  

I don't understand the necessity of stifling the voices of people who are pro-extended though.  Even if you believe they are whining irrationally, it seems better to ignore than engage.  Otherwise, you wind up "in the mud" with them, which is perhaps where this whole post originally came from.  

In summation, thanks for what you do.  Also, you (all) do you (all).  I'll (very likely) keep listening, because I appreciate the ideas and analysis that your excellent podcast provides.  

Also - I actually like the Krayts.  They have their schtick, of course, and you have to understand the context before listening, but once you do, their podcasts are either very insightful, or they tell you in the show notes to expect a dumpster fire.  Seems like a fair deal.  So go them!  

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Boba is a lot worse in Hyperspace than Extended and he's not shone in the Hyperspace events I'm aware of.

Its different.

I completely agree. 

I suspect even more: not only Boba/Fenn will not be dominant archetype, but Scum faction as a whole will be one of the weakest in Hyperspace.

I predict that incoming point change will overnerf Boba, and Fenn (and other Fangs) will be pushed out of the meta by thousand cuts from rear arcs of A-wings and TIEsfs. 

Back on topic: Hyperspace is great, Mynoc Episode was awesome and about Poe Kevin is wrong, Ryan is right ;)

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20 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Boba loses a ton from the sheer amount of I6s that are going to happily sit in his blind spot, and of the I6s Fenn currently looks a step short.

Thanks for using specifics. What I6s is he afraid of?  There are less in Hyperspace than there are in Extended.  Of the Hyperspace I6s, Wedge, Midnight, and Quickdraw are principally jousters, and the fact that they're I6 isn't super important other than for information denial.  Vader, Fenn, and Poe can reposition significantly and keep their offense going.   

Vader isn't doing well in Extended, but might see more play in Hyperpspace.  He could theoretically push Boba around, but he's hot to do it a lot at points levels not substantially different than today's. 

Poe with R4 effectively acts like a regular ship, which means it comes down to play more than matchup.  He'll be solid vs Boba, but I don't see a way for him to push Boba out of the top spot.  

Fenn is still Fenn, much like Poe in that he's solid vs Boba, but isn't pushing him out right now, unless fewer other options allow more Fenns, which bully Boba with their frequency.  As an ally of Boba, Fenn is basically the cheapest of the maneuverable I6s, which counts for something.

 

1 minute ago, Oldpara said:

I completely agree. 

I suspect even more: not only Boba/Fenn will not be dominant archetype, but Scum faction as a whole will be one of the weakest in Hyperspace.

I predict that incoming point change will overnerf Boba, and Fenn (and other Fangs) will be pushed out of the meta by thousand cuts from rear arcs of A-wings and TIEsfs.

Doescthis assessment hold if therefore not dramatic point changes to Boba?  That's the situation I'm discussing. 

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6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Thanks for using specifics. What I6s is he afraid of?  There are less in Hyperspace than there are in Extended.  Of the Hyperspace I6s, Wedge, Midnight, and Quickdraw are principally jousters, and the fact that they're I6 isn't super important other than for information denial.  Vader, Fenn, and Poe can reposition significantly and keep their offense going.   

Vader isn't doing well in Extended, but might see more play in Hyperpspace.  He could theoretically push Boba around, but he's hot to do it a lot at points levels not substantially different than today's. 

Poe with R4 effectively acts like a regular ship, which means it comes down to play more than matchup.  He'll be solid vs Boba, but I don't see a way for him to push Boba out of the top spot.  

Fenn is still Fenn, much like Poe in that he's solid vs Boba, but isn't pushing him out right now, unless fewer other options allow more Fenns, which bully Boba with their frequency.  As an ally of Boba, Fenn is basically the cheapest of the maneuverable I6s, which counts for something.

 

Doescthis assessment hold if therefore not dramatic point changes to Boba?  That's the situation I'm discussing. 

🤨 Curious that Null isn't in that list. I take it Swarm Tactics on them isn't something you rate highly?

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Curious that Null isn't in that list. I take it Swarm Tactics on them isn't something you rate highly?

Forgot Null in the list.  Overall I think Null is a terrific ship with Squad Leader, maybe too good for the points, but not meta defining, because a 4 HP ship not using any actions for defense is not forcing a lot of things, it's jist a really good support ship.

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4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

(...) 

Fenn is still Fenn, much like Poe in that he's solid vs Boba, but isn't pushing him out right now, unless fewer other options allow more Fenns, which bully Boba with their frequency.  As an ally of Boba, Fenn is basically the cheapest of the maneuverable I6s, which counts for something.

(...) 

Doescthis assessment hold if therefore not dramatic point changes to Boba?  That's the situation I'm discussing. 

Nope, Fenn isn't the same Fenn anymore :) 

Hyperspace environment is infested with Fenn's counters: better I6 and generics that turns off his ship ability (Concordia Faceoff doesn't work against rear arc). 

Very quickly players will realize how easy is to kill Fenn just jumping over him using 5 straight and killing him from the rear arc. (I suspect grimm time for Fangs, and drop in points during next points adjustments) 

And Boba even without big points change (but - honestly - is there anyone who thinks that Boba/Han Gunner/Marauder will be untouched?) have to face 3 more I6 (Poe/QD/Midnight) and new super maneuverable I5 (Kylo). Not only more enemies to be affraid off, but also higher density of those threats as meta will be more narrow in Hyperspace due to limited number of ships, so I6 will be played more often. 

But Boba anyway has some merit, while Fangs are almost dead at current cost. 

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

Which is precisely why I suggest against the mud slinging. Some people are going to dismiss you no matter what. So why give them ammo? Why give them satisfaction? Focus on those who will give you good conversation/feedback and tune out those who aren't there for that. I've found myself much happier when I follow that kind of guideline. 

I still stand by my assertion about mocking having a negative effect on the mocker. It detracts from your points because some people, even some of those who agree with you, just find the tactics distasteful. I think our old friend Commander Kaine is a good example of this. He was so into the "persona" he wanted for the profile, it negatively affected the points he was trying to make because some users found his "persona" distracting. So, your "little contribution" (I personally think your analytics count for more than a little) you feel you are giving can be detracted from by how it's said or defended.

I completely understand the frustration. I've dealt with quite a bit of my own in relation to this forum. Even slung some mud myself when it got too much for me. And it accomplished nothing. I didn't find enough or even the right kind of satisfaction in it, so I'm trying to do things that are actually worthwhile to me. That does mean I don't post as much, but I still think it is a better option for me. Maybe you get a better return on your investment in the mockery, even with all the costs associated with it. I don't know, I'm not you. Ultimately, I'm just bringing up a different perspective on things. If you find something of value in that, excellent. But that's something to be decided by all who read this, as is how they spend their time. I just hope that decisions are made with eyes open to the fact that there is more consequences (both positive and negative) to decisions then the direct reactions.

 

edit: didn't see the post I was quoting was deleted. Will probably delete the rest of mine as well shortly.

Edited by SabineKey

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13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

didn't see the post I was quoting was deleted. Will probably delete the rest of mine as well shortly.

I didn't want to waste your time, and I appreciate your comment, so keep yours up if you want. My own sounded too egotistical after rereading, which I didn't intend.

You are right though. It just feels like defeat to leave the place to the semi-professional complainers. Because my alternative, too, is to retreat again into the 2-3 threads that are worthwile to me.

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I don't think QD is a jouster any more.  He was, and people are still trying to bash his newly rounded peg into that old square hole, but he's not any more. 

And there's Vader, and Poe, and Han, and the other Han, and maybe even the other Han, and Anakin.  

Theres really not much I6 action in Extended at all compared to Hyperspace.

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10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I didn't want to waste your time, and I appreciate your comment, so keep yours up if you want. My own sounded too egotistical after rereading, which I didn't intend.

You are right though. It just feels like defeat to leave the place to the semi-professional complainers. Because my alternative, too, is to retreat again into the 2-3 threads that are worthwile to me.

I'll keep it around, then. But I did basically edit out your post. I think it still works as is.

And I can related to the defeated feeling. It doesn't feel great to see the same old people spreading their crap around. I'm advocating ignoring them, but it is still something I struggle with. *shrugs* Hopefully this way, effort can be spent on people and discussions that are actually worth it. 

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