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Goseki1

Thannison crew ability & target locks.

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Petty Officer Thanisson crew says:

 

"During the Activation or Engagement Phase, after an enemy ship in your Icon arc standard front.png at range 0-1 gains a red or orange token, if you are not stressed, you may gain 1 stress token. If you do, that ship gains 1 additional token of the type that it gained." 

How does this interact with target locks, if it interacts at all?

Let's say Thannison is in Ship A, and my friendly Ship B target locks an enemy ship, assigning a red TL token; Thannisons ability triggers; do I get to add a red TL token from Ship A to the enemy ship? 

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14 minutes ago, Grendelator said:

nope, there is no more "red" target locks

Red token are : stress and ion

Look on the last page of the quick rules booklet, you have all tokens

If you look under Lock on p12 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2) you will find this:

" An object is locked while it has at least one lock token assigned to it. Lock tokens are red tokens. "

So Acquiring a lock definitely assigns a red token, but to @Goseki1's original question I'm unsure of who the lock is assigned from. I would say that it is reasonable to assume the ship carrying Thannison gives it, but I'm not certain. I think it's just as reasonable to say that it's a random number Lock token taken from your token supply since that's how you would select an additional stress/ion/tractor/jam token.

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11 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

If you look under Lock on p12 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2) you will find this:

" An object is locked while it has at least one lock token assigned to it. Lock tokens are red tokens. "

@Goseki1

My bad

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It wouldn't work on locks unless the ship doing the locking was red line.

Exactly then.

If the target gain 1 additional token of the type that it gained, it'll be the same TL token number from the ship that do the lock.

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It's just the same type, not the same token. I know we're getting into rules layering territories here but those aren't the same thing.

 

I'll put on a rules request because it'll be good to get it cleared up. If it works that amazing, but I expect it doesn't. 

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5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It wouldn't work on locks unless the ship doing the locking was red line.

Definitely disagree on that.

swz18_po-thanisson_a2.png

Nothing on Thanisson's card says it must be an identical token, only that it be the same type. Here's what the Rules Reference has to say on p18 about Gain a token:

" When a ship is instructed to Gain a token, a token from the supply is placed in the play area next to the ship. "

It does not explicitly instruct you to choose at random; it also does not tell you to look for any particular example of the token type. Given that line from the rules it stands to reason that the token gained is any example not already on the board.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Maui. said:

Lock tokens are not shared between players and are thus not a part of the supply.

I know In competitive settings everyone typically brings their own components, but why wouldn't Locks be shared according to the rules?

From p18 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2):

" SUPPLY
The supply is the shared set of game components that are not being used by any player, such as unassigned focus tokens, maneuver templates, etc. "

People share maneuver templates just as often as they do lock tokens. It does make an interesting addition to the random assignment process though since you could end up assigning a friendly lock to the chosen ship.

Edited by nitrobenz

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this is very interesting indeed. a ship just gaining a token doesn't even necessarily even constitute acquiring a lock. i believe the player that uses thanissons effect will be able to choose the token and since it doesn't seem to be considered acquiring a lock, any ship on the board should be able to lock the ship in question, regardless of range. even ships that don't have the the lock action. that's pretty crazy.

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3 hours ago, meffo said:

this is very interesting indeed. a ship just gaining a token doesn't even necessarily even constitute acquiring a lock. i believe the player that uses thanissons effect will be able to choose the token and since it doesn't seem to be considered acquiring a lock, any ship on the board should be able to lock the ship in question, regardless of range. even ships that don't have the the lock action. that's pretty crazy.

Which is why I think it will get ruled as not working (though I secretly hope it does XD) 

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If you can gain a red token and target lock tokens are red then it stands to reason another token of the same type (target lock) can be gained by the ship. Remember that there are only red target lock tokens now. There are no blue target lock tokens anymore (even though people still keep using old target locks which frustrates me immensely since that's not how the new version works).

I don't see why this wouldn't work with target locks unless FFG explicitly ruled otherwise.

And then there's this: "If a ship is instructed to acquire a lock, the object it locks must be at range 0–3 unless otherwise specified."

The ship is only gaining the token, the other ship is not quite acquiring the lock since there's no written instruction to do so.... We'll need a ruling on this from FFG.

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1 hour ago, eRADicator67 said:

If you can gain a red token and target lock tokens are red then it stands to reason another token of the same type (target lock) can be gained by the ship. Remember that there are only red target lock tokens now. There are no blue target lock tokens anymore (even though people still keep using old target locks which frustrates me immensely since that's not how the new version works).

I don't see why this wouldn't work with target locks unless FFG explicitly ruled otherwise.

And then there's this: "If a ship is instructed to acquire a lock, the object it locks must be at range 0–3 unless otherwise specified."

The ship is only gaining the token, the other ship is not quite acquiring the lock since there's no written instruction to do so.... We'll need a ruling on this from FFG.

Definetly. I've submitted a rules question so hopefully we hear something back soonish.  

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2 hours ago, eRADicator67 said:

There are no blue target lock tokens anymore (even though people still keep using old target locks which frustrates me immensely since that's not how the new version works).

While I absolutely agree that the new system is designed to work explicitly with ship ID numbers and singular red lock tokens... I find that the visual shorthand of a blue lock token for me and a matching red lock token for you helps everyone at the table remember who has a lock on who.

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7 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

While I absolutely agree that the new system is designed to work explicitly with ship ID numbers and singular red lock tokens... I find that the visual shorthand of a blue lock token for me and a matching red lock token for you helps everyone at the table remember who has a lock on who.

You've never just stuck the old blue lock tokens where the ID tokens would go? You even get to use abbreviations (W for Wedge, B for Boba, NN for Nien...)

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3 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

You've never just stuck the old blue lock tokens where the ID tokens would go? You even get to use abbreviations (W for Wedge, B for Boba, NN for Nien...)

Do they sit nicely in the medium and large bases? My ID tokens are loose in those size bases; small bases they fit perfectly. I'll try my System Open locks with the larger bases, maybe that will work instead. I am enjoying the cleanliness of the game space with the numbered locks and IDs though.

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On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, meffo said:

since it doesn't seem to be considered acquiring a lock, any ship on the board should be able to lock the ship in question, regardless of range

Yup, because if it does work, it needs to be a lock token, which will have a ship's ID number on it.

That ship will be able to use the lock, and wouldn't need to be in range, because it's not doing anything - it's not acquiring a lock, the 'target' is just gaining the lock token (just as Kagi can 'steal' locks for ships which aren't in range 1-3 of him and couldn't acquire the lock 'properly'). Ships without the Target Lock action can still acquire target locks, they just need something to give them the ability (although, to be fair, ALL first order ships can target lock - one of their advantages over their older Galactic Empire predecessors)

It boils down to "do two lock tokens with different ship ID numbers count as 'tokens of the same type' for Thannisson's purposes. If so, then yes, she can 'mirror' a target lock from one friendly ship to any other friendly ship".

Not exactly broken if it works - First Order is a sequel trilogy faction, with access to the Targeting Synchoniser, after all, but certainly a very nice ability on an already very flexible crew.

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5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Yup, because if it does work, it needs to be a lock token, which will have a ship's ID number on it.

That ship will be able to use the lock, and wouldn't need to be in range, because it's not doing anything - it's not acquiring a lock, the 'target' is just gaining the lock token (just as Kagi can 'steal' locks for ships which aren't in range 1-3 of him and couldn't acquire the lock 'properly'). Ships without the Target Lock action can still acquire target locks, they just need something to give them the ability (although, to be fair, ALL first order ships can target lock - one of their advantages over their older Galactic Empire predecessors)

It boils down to "do two lock tokens with different ship ID numbers count as 'tokens of the same type' for Thannisson's purposes. If so, then yes, she can 'mirror' a target lock from one friendly ship to any other friendly ship".

Not exactly broken if it works - First Order is a sequel trilogy faction, with access to the Targeting Synchoniser, after all, but certainly a very nice ability on an already very flexible crew.

i certainly agree, it's not broken, but an excellent ability none the less.

it's not the same as kagi at all, those tokens are transferred.

i'm not 100% sure whether the ship the lock belongs to will be considered to acquire a lock, but as of right now according to RAW, i don't think it is considered to acquire a lock at all. hopefully, we'll get a clarification.

i think it's pretty clear enough that lock tokens count as tokens of the same type already.
 

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14 hours ago, eRADicator67 said:

Do they sit nicely in the medium and large bases? My ID tokens are loose in those size bases; small bases they fit perfectly. I'll try my System Open locks with the larger bases, maybe that will work instead. I am enjoying the cleanliness of the game space with the numbered locks and IDs though.

I'm not sure why the new ID tokens are loose in the larger bases, but I did use the technique with small and large bases in 1.0, so I don't see why not. I wouldn't risk scratching System Open locks by jamming them into the slots, cardboard is nice since it can compress a bit and make a snug fit, the acrylics are probably too big and you'll wind up scratching them or bending the base slots.

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14 hours ago, meffo said:

as of right now according to RAW, i don't think it is considered to acquire a lock at all.

Correct.

What I meant was that Kagi transfers an existing lock token without reference to the ship who's lock token it is.

From the perspective of the other ship, ignoring the ship you're transferring the lock token from, it now has Kagi locked without ever acquiring a lock on him. Which means that a lock token 'just appearing' on a ship means you now have it locked, so it would count as the other ship who's lock token Thannisson used now having a lock on that ship, and wouldn't count as that ship acquiring a lock (which is where range restrictions come into play). The only question is whether she's allowed to do it, and frankly I have difficulty coming up with a reference-able reason why she can't. Lock tokens are tokens. They're red. They are a 'type' of token. It's probably not the first use anyone thought of for it, but I don't see why it shouldn't work.

To add one last weirdness, if you're just picking "a lock token" and are allowed to pick any ship ID lock token to place, is there ever a reason to place a lock token of an enemy ship? I can't think of one off-hand - if they've got an existing lock they'll have to discard one but they I think choose which, and most "if you lock me, bad things happen" effects specify "enemy ship" so it's fine if a friendly locks you.

 

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9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

 To add one last weirdness, if you're just picking "a lock token" and are allowed to pick any ship ID lock token to place, is there ever a reason to place a lock token of an enemy ship? I can't think of one off-hand - if they've got an existing lock they'll have to discard one but they I think choose which, and most "if you lock me, bad things happen" effects specify "enemy ship" so it's fine if a friendly locks you.

Rules reference says that if a ship would gain too many locks, old locks are discarded before new ones are gained.

It's silly to think the id number on the lock token wouldnt also be copied though.

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13 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

It's silly to think the id number on the lock token wouldnt also be copied though.

That was what I was saying earlier about whether 'the same kind' would in this context mean 'another lock token' or 'another lock token with the same ID number'. If the latter, it's only currently useful with "you may maintain 2 target locks", which is currently not available to the First Order.

 

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"...that ship gains 1 additional token of the type that it gained."

"same type" is not clear, but it's definitely a reasonable assumption (assuming is of course not good) that it's just the same type, not necessarily the exact same kind of token it just gained. hence, any lock token should be fine. whether your opponents locks are the same type of token as your locks is up for debate, but i think they are. this means you could even break your opponents locks by assigning one of their ships locks to the ship your'e using thanisson on, forcing them to remove the lock from the object they were previously locking. should be extra fun if they by some slim chance are running qi'ra. ^_^

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In the same vein that 'same type' isn't clear, it could also arguably refer to red or orange tokens, so that if the ship initially gained a stress, you could assign an ion token. Or if they gained a jam, you can assign a tractor.

Please just stop and accept Thannison doesn't work with lock tokens, since you should copy all aspects of the token.

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