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Mark Caliber

Creativity vs Reality - Knock down brawl of the Forum (Ding)!

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I'm migrating a discussion from the "Cool alternative to Asteroid Field" that is becoming a Thread Jack.  You can check out that cool topic below and carry on the now vitriolic discussion below

 

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Okay not to recap, but:

I think this is a sufficiently important discussion for new GM's to sift through because I believe this discussion could help new GM's find their own "voice" or "style."

And I HAVE had this discussion before and it can seem quite heated and vitriolic at times but I do remind the mods to remember the theme song to "Frozen."  Because new GM's will need to learn some of this stuff.

 

Flavorabledeez seems to be taking the approach that creativity should trump rules or the Laws of Physics, but I'm cautioning against that approach.

Now in Flavorabledeez defense, I am a bit of a hard nose at the GM table and as a cogent example;

In my current campaign as the players began to pick up the F&D rules and begin to understand the power available to them one of the Players approached me and asked, "What would it take for my character to get a double bladed lightsabre, like the one Darth Maul used."

And my response was "A more amenable GM."

Yes, it is fair to say, that In My Star Wars Universe (IMSWU) things may seem a bit restrictive.  I don't allow double bladed swords (because they worked out soooo well in history, right?) and Helicopter twirling lightsabers are WAY out, because most sensible militaries discontinue using weapons that are more dangerous to their troops, than to the enemy, with little hesitation.

 

But one of the reasons that I study and define the metaphysics of a game is so that I can establish a reliable common framework of understanding for the Players.  This venue we call RPG's is a creative endeavor and it can be hard for players to adapt to different stories.  One of the benefits of Star Wars is that there is a LOT of resources and materials out there that help define what is out there in this massive galaxy.  But some of the material is also Star Trek absurd.

There is another governing principle that is also important to my campaigns and that is that my goal is to run long lasting campaigns.  By establishing and abiding by a consistent set of metaphysics, my hope is to help the players in a long term campaign to be able to rely upon a common set of standards.  What works for the enemy will work for them and they won't be surprised by a weird random event when I suddenly change the metaphysics mid-game.

More later!  (I lost track of the time this morning)!

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4 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

 

In my current campaign as the players began to pick up the F&D rules and begin to understand the power available to them one of the Players approached me and asked, "What would it take for my character to get a double bladed lightsabre, like the one Darth Maul used."

And my response was "A more amenable GM."

Yes, it is fair to say, that In My Star Wars Universe (IMSWU) things may seem a bit restrictive.  I don't allow double bladed swords (because they worked out soooo well in history, right?) and Helicopter twirling lightsabers are WAY out, because most sensible militaries discontinue using weapons that are more dangerous to their troops, than to the enemy, with little hesitation.

 

Lightsabers don't really make sense for any sensible military either. But then neither the Sith or the Jedi are sensible militaries. They're kooky religious mystics who use magical crystals to form plasma blades that act in ways that makes them lethal to use unless you're very well trained or a prescient warrior mystic. Sensible military minds don't enter into it.

 

For me Star Wars runs on a more heroic scale. Yeah your PC's might be dirtbags who peddle drugs and shoot first and ask questions never, but they're among the best at what they do and should get chances to do it. Of course the galaxy should hit back, but 20 storm troopers are not insurmountable odds sunce these are the big **** heroes. Of course there are always more storm troopers ready to enter the meat grinder.

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I usually side on the rule of cool over realism, it's why I like things like the minion rules etc. Normally a person couldn't take down 10 or so elite soldiers, but in Star Wars you can, and that always fun. It's nice to play the badass hero taking on legions of villains every so often. If I wanted realistic fighting I'd probably look for a different system to fit that. For me Star Wars has always been about suspending belief to make something awesome happen. 

Part of the thing I also like is the mystique that comes with the force, the jedi etc. There's tonnes to explore around that, and a lot of it is reality warping or physics breaking. Despite that it doesn't often feel out of place in the setting thanks to the high fantasy vibe. That's my take on it anyway. 

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I don't always worry about "realism" (I grudgingly accept the narrative aspects of this game) but I do strive for consistency in the setting. I do not want a game where weird exceptions to the game world's natural laws happen all the time (yet may or may not be repeatable). Hyperspace is one area where I try to nail down exactly how it's going to work, and in-game this should be well understood as they've been using it for well over 25k years. Another example is that I do not let droids escape the hardware of their brains; they are not AI programs that can replicate/move into other systems or bodies for reproduction or serial immortality.

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32 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Another example is that I do not let droids escape the hardware of their brains; they are not AI programs that can replicate/move into other systems or bodies for reproduction or serial immortality.

This is a pretty valid requirement, especially when you have player PCs. You have to lock down that droids need to be highly sophisticated to the point of extreme limitations. A Droid is an individual, and either as a security feature, or just the economics of manufacturing, is a pretty locked-in thing. PCs and Nemesis type droids will usually be unique individuals, with everything that makes them... Them being a combination of software, firmware, and other things. Any one of those things goes, and the Droid will never be right again, if at all.

It makes sense logically, I can't just clone my PCs hard drive on to a Mac and expect it to boot up and work the same, it probably won't work at all. Even pulling a drive from a PC and slapping it into a different PC won't necessarily work, and even if it does, it won't be right unless the new PC is 100% identical in every way. 

Heck, even the current lore supports it. If you could do that sort of thing L3 would be around. Likewise if it were just software, Chewie wouldn't have bothered putting C-3PO back together. He would have just salvaged 3POs drives and got a new chassis.

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I think it's acceptable as common reference up is up and down is down and so on.

I know I houserule to cover missing elements/mechanics,  as well as dispose of crappy ones.

I think a certain application of consistency is a good thing while not being completely rigid and obtuse about recognizing **** happens and adjustments are required at times.

Flexibility for GMing is a requisite, but I do insist on my word as law and the understanding we aren't going to relitigate decisions I've made.

In regards to canon elements about the genre like hyperspace, given what a non techno focused universe Star Wars is it certainly opens up lots of options for interpretation of it. I do think laying out the how to's and boundaries in regards to game mechanics isn't just ok, it's necessary, otherwise hyperspace morphs into something unmanageable.

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Posted (edited)

First of all: hats off for taking this to another thread. There’s nothing worse than looking for answers on one subject and ending up getting your thread hijacked. 

Regarding the subject, it sounds like we’ve got a lot of GMs who aren’t really grasping the collective storytelling aspect of FFG’s rpg system and allowing their players freedom of creativity.

I come from a diverse background of roleplaying that started with D&D, then Shadowrun, some Vampire the Masquerade (that wasn’t taken seriously, at all). Those games tend to give way to “the GM (DM) has the last say,” which under the rule system works.

FFG’s doesn’t feel that way to me or my players. There’s no maps or miniatures, and the interpretation of the dice is a collective effort by everyone. The concept of Destiny Points alone shows that the players have a bigger impact in this game than in most other RPGs.

Now I’m never going to tell anyone how to GM. GMs should know their players and their expectations. Their happiness, along with your own as GM, is what matters, and fun is the name of the game.

With that being said, my players and I immediately picked up on how much more open the rules are for this game, and they’ve owned it. They love making this franchise theirs, and I’ve done everything to help keep that good time going. 

So when it comes to “real” physics vs fiction (I say real as in keeping with stuff seen prior in the franchise) I’m going to lean towards the fiction. Hate to burst anyone’s bubble here, but Star Wars is a fantasy story, not one of science fiction. Lucas clearly didn’t let any real physics get in the way of his storytelling, and he also sold the rights to see what others could do with this universe. 

And at the risk of being long winded, I stand by my statement that these established rules in fiction are made to be broken. Again: any creator of fiction worth their salt knows the best way to surprise the reader/viewer/player is to establish precedent, then show characters working around it to find their way out of a situation. That’s heroic storytelling 101.

Edited by Flavorabledeez

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47 minutes ago, themensch said:

Any discussion of reality within a fantasy setting must be taken with a grain of salt, particularly when dealing with a setting that is actively changing with every new canonical source.

For the purposes of the game,  the setting only changes if you want it to change. Canon has no power but what you give it. 

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4 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

This is a pretty valid requirement, especially when you have player PCs. You have to lock down that droids need to be highly sophisticated to the point of extreme limitations. A Droid is an individual, and either as a security feature, or just the economics of manufacturing, is a pretty locked-in thing. PCs and Nemesis type droids will usually be unique individuals, with everything that makes them... Them being a combination of software, firmware, and other things. Any one of those things goes, and the Droid will never be right again, if at all.

It makes sense logically, I can't just clone my PCs hard drive on to a Mac and expect it to boot up and work the same, it probably won't work at all. Even pulling a drive from a PC and slapping it into a different PC won't necessarily work, and even if it does, it won't be right unless the new PC is 100% identical in every way. 

Heck, even the current lore supports it. If you could do that sort of thing L3 would be around. Likewise if it were just software, Chewie wouldn't have bothered putting C-3PO back together. He would have just salvaged 3POs drives and got a new chassis.

They did just that in solo made what's her name lando's droid part of the falcon, the droid AI now lives in a ship's computer.

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2 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

First of all: hats off for taking this to another thread. There’s nothing worse than looking for answers on one subject and ending up getting your thread hijacked. 

Regarding the subject, it sounds like we’ve got a lot of GMs who aren’t really grasping the collective storytelling aspect of FFG’s rpg system and allowing their players freedom of creativity.

I come from a diverse background of roleplaying that started with D&D, then Shadowrun, some Vampire the Masquerade (that wasn’t taken seriously, at all). Those games tend to give way to “the GM (DM) has the last say,” which under the rule system works.

FFG’s doesn’t feel that way to me or my players. There’s no maps or miniatures, and the interpretation of the dice is a collective effort by everyone. The concept of Destiny Points alone shows that the players have a bigger impact in this game than in most other RPGs.

Now I’m never going to tell anyone how to GM. GMs should know their players and their expectations. Their happiness, along with your own as GM, is what matters, and fun is the name of the game.

With that being said, my players and I immediately picked up on how much more open the rules are for this game, and they’ve owned it. They love making this franchise theirs, and I’ve done everything to help keep that good time going. 

So when it comes to “real” physics vs fiction (I say real as in keeping with stuff seen prior in the franchise) I’m going to lean towards the fiction. Hate to burst anyone’s bubble here, but Star Wars is a fantasy story, not one of science fiction. Lucas clearly didn’t let any real physics get in the way of his storytelling, and he also sold the rights to see what others could do with this universe. 

And at the risk of being long winded, I stand by my statement that these established rules in fiction are made to be broken. Again: any creator of fiction worth their salt knows the best way to surprise the reader/viewer/player is to establish precedent, then show characters working around it to find their way out of a situation. That’s heroic storytelling 101.

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

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2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

Impossible is flip a destiny point a 5 purple check (possibly some or all of those red).  Personally except for the flapping the arms thing depending on species I would prefer to set the difficulty at 1000 triumphs.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Impossible is flip a destiny point a 5 purple check (possibly some or all of those red).  Personally except for the flapping the arms thing depending on species I would prefer to set the difficulty at 1000 triumphs.

Or you say no, because it's completely out of place in a Star Wars setting.

If it's impossible, there's no need to roll.

Edited by Rimsen

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

I agree with HD on the postive results and I'll coin in here on the negative.

If you want to do the TFA hyperspace jump through the shield stuff, how many Threats or Despairs before I can kill you?  Because if I can't kill you, you're never really in any actual danger, narrative or otherwise, and if you aren't in any real danger, you're never a hero.....

 

Edited by 2P51

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

It's almost like you're proposing we be reasonable here. 

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5 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

Pretty much all of those could be the purpose of a longer campaign or multi-session adventures. That last one would depend on species of the PC, gravity of the planetoid as well as wind and air pressure.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

How heroic can we get?

So how many Successes/Advantages/Trumphs on Astrogation to go back in time?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Computers for a droid PC to seed AI itself across the entire holonet?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Medicine to revive a long-dead companion?

How many Successes/Advantages/Triumphs on Athletics to fly by flapping your arms?

I'd prefer to set the precedent that all of those are impossible in Star Wars and then stick with it.

How heroic is up to the GM and the players. Plus there’s precedent for all of the things you mention in Star Wars.

Time Travel- Ezra managed to find a nexus for just that (though not astronavigation in your example)

A robot at least putting more of itself out there is shown with IG-88 (though far less than spreading AI across the holonet)

I’m starting to feel like death is a joke in Star Wars, just so long as you’re connected to the force. Maul comes back, Anakin should’ve died, in the Legends stuff Palpatine clones are a threat, Darth Plagius could defeat death, etc. So the option for that isn’t unheard of. 

And we’ve been victimized visually by flying people in Star Wars recently, but I’m more than happy to just say “yeah, I wouldn’t just allow arm flapping for flying unless gravity was low or the species of character could do it”

However, I think your point is mostly a strawman argument though, since you knock all of these concepts down to just “a roll,” when most of these things are at the LEAST a sessions worth of storytelling to be able to accomplish them, many could be an entire campaign’s objective.

Want to astronavigate back in time? There was rumor that a freighter did just that from the future, but its pilot went mad and is believed to be locked up by one of the Hutts.

Distribute yourself across the holonet? That’s a whole personal campaign objective, and it most likely won’t turn out how you want it to (from freedom to becoming an information dump with no control)

Bring someone back from the dead with medicine? Start using that archaeology background and searching for other cultures that might’ve done it.

Fly... be written and directed by someone who believes people watching won’t be laughing at what’s transpiring. Laughing... or raging...

Edited by Flavorabledeez

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

They did just that in solo made what's her name lando's droid part of the falcon, the droid AI now lives in a ship's computer.

Exactly, when L3 was uploaded, she also somehow merged with the falcon's onboard systems, and was there forever in some form. 

In reality terms it's almost like a droid's core personality and skillware is some kind of polymorphic system that adapts to and integrates with the hardware it's placed in. Try and download a droid's "mind" to another computer system or droid and that code restructures to the new platform, usually resulting in the original "mind" being permanently altered beyond recovery. 

It actually might work, we already know that droids generate a lot of additional data and operating parameters beyond the original programming, hence the need for certain droids to undergo regular memory wipes. So taking it one step further and saying beyond the baseline factory install all other data, knowledge, and skills a droid accumulates can't be transferred in a way that can ensure it survives in it's current form and is recoverable is pretty reasonable.

Upload yourself to whatever platform you like, the polymorphic system will still restructure and there's no guarantee you'll come out the other side. The greater the difference in systems, the less likely the transfer will work and you'll come out the same. 

That way you could still allow for the occasional narrative required exception to the rule for those times when Blue Max needs to back up Bollox, but when the Player R2 unit decides to clone himself onto every battledroid in the compound just to be a mule-face, you don't have to just turn it over to the player. You could even allow it, but just throw so many red dice at the Player they decide it's not worth the risk, as the may end up making an army of Ricky the Demon Machine out to kill everyone, including each other.

Edited by Ghostofman

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Posted (edited)

I guess what really matters with all of this is are you introducing an element that either A) brings players out of their immersion and/or B) could be something potentially “game breaking” when abused by PCs.

Both of these are part of the “know your players” mode of thinking, and I’d include what you’re comfortable with as a GM into that equation as well.

And I get what some of you are saying (although with great hyperbole) about these concepts. How far do you go until it stops being Star Wars (or worse, until it just becomes unrecognizable chaos)? Well, you have to know your players for that, and to any new GM reading this I will strongly suggest running a few mini-campaigns with your players to figure them out.

My own playgroup has a balance. There’s two players who like to do amazing things within the rules and two who look for loopholes and breaking points within any system. Usually, they all keep each other in check, but sometimes one side overly wins out. When the abusers win out... well, things can get a little chaotic. I know if I’m introducing an element outside the norm that I should be prepared for potential abuse if the players can get their hands on it. And that’s where being clever comes in. You have to show it exists for a cool moment, but still be able to not let them have it in a manner that doesn’t come off as limiting. There has to be a plausible reason for them not to be able to (or overly able to) do these things.

This all spun from a conversation about using hyperspace as a location for a space battle. I still maintain that could happen, but I’ll also completely accept that it has to be done in a non-character abusive way. As an example, if I were to use it, I might would have the players traveling to an area of little to non-explored space where they encounter a creature that can latch onto their ship while in transit. Or maybe have the Empire design a TIE that can “snare” a larger ship before it makes the jump and travel along with it (since not every ship is going to keep conveniently handing itself over for trackers or a disabling of the hyperdrive like the Falcon and smugglers/pirates are a problem for the Empire). Or even have a pirate captain with a leaky hyperdrive who has discovered that when he jumps things within a certain range of his ship go with him, allowing him to “port” away with valuable cargo (only thing is the leaking hyperdrive is driving him insane, Reavers anyone?). 

All of these things allow for a fight within a hyperspace “tunnel” without allowing the players to believe they can manipulate the base rules of hyperspace to their advantage. And it’s not outside of precedent to know that Star Wars has wild deep space creatures, Imperial technological developments based on their needs, and crazy throw-caution-to-the-wind space pirates who don’t care about their future.  These are all ways to introduce the concept for a really cool moment (or two) without the players thinking they could ever do it on a regular basis. Maybe once, if need be, but at potentially a great cost to themselves and their ship. 

You know, hero s**t.

Edited by Flavorabledeez

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21 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

I guess what really matters with all of this is are you introducing an element that either A) brings players out of their immersion and/or B) could be something potentially “game breaking” when abused by PCs.

And the new films do both of these things repeatedly with their approach to hyperspace (into/out of gravity wells & atmospheres, as a weapon, "hovering" on standby in hyperspace, etc.). I think having hyperspace be a place rather than a state of being is a bad idea. The 1990s version of hyperspace spelled out by WEG maintains cohesion and avoids all of this crap.

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Posted (edited)

Time for Evo's Two Cents ™

Personally, I favor going with the route that makes for a better story than the route that is the most logical or the one most in line with the rules. For me, Roleplaying is an exercise in collaborative storytelling and improvisational thinking and problem solving. It is always primarily a game about the story for me, personally, as a GM. If I feel that a certain action or check is detrimental to the story, then I do not allow it. However, if someone wants to do something outside of the rules that genuinely makes the story more interesting/more fun/better in any way, I am willing to forgo rules lawyering to see it happen. Likewise, even if something is in the rules, I tend to veto things that do not make sense/do not fit into the story-line being created.

Example: A player in my group wanted to buy a lightsaber from a core world black market. Strictly speaking, this can be done because they had the funds and could get the black market contacts. However, I vetoed this for two major reasons: 1. The player in question is not force sensitive (nor can become force sensitive due to being a droid) and 2. If he just bought a lightsaber, all the magic of a weapon like that is lost. It becomes just another tool in the arsenal. 

Counter Example: My group was playing Mask of the Pirate Queen (spoilers beware) and tried to rig the fight with Flutterplume by entering one of them into the line up. The fight began and it went really poorly. The fighter was managing to stay alive but only just, because Flutterplume is a really good grappler. So, one of the other characters threw a glass bottle into the ring for the Fighter to use as a melee weapon while another party member chucked a hyper-hot dog at Flutterplume to knock her off balance and blind her momentarily. Strictly speaking, most of these checks should have been more difficult than I made them, but I loved the creative thinking and the dirty tactics that the Gang was utilizing, so I allowed it to happen and they knocked Flutterplume out of the fight (RIP Fluterplume's left leg).

Overall, my group is about telling the story in a way that feels more authentic and interesting to tell rather than one that very rigidly goes by the rules and the hard science of hot dog flinging physics. At the end of the sessions, I want us to have created stories we can tell without having to preface everything with "I used this mechanic where I...". My ultimate goal, and the mark that we are doing our jobs as story tellers, is if a member of the Gang can tell the story to someone who has never played before and it still make sense and is fun/cool.

That's is for this episode of Evo's Two Cents ™. Tune in next time to hear Evo complain about something being on the boat still (it knows what it is!).

Edit: BONUS ROUND

Thought of another "fudge it because it's cool" moment ya'll may get a laugh out of. Team was on a jungle planet making there way to an airstrip where their ship was being kept and had to navigate the jungle outside. After fighting off insurgents and the local guerilla faction, they got to a larger clearing and took a breather. Lo and behold, a huge, lumbering Jungle Rancor looms into their distant view. They've not been spotted yet, and have a chance to react first. Almost all of them react by hiding (in varying degrees of near literal vanishing, jetpacking up trees, and quickly assembling a bush to cry in) except for one: the Wookiee.

The rancor stomps into range and then the wookiee promptly draws... a data pad? Okay, we'll see how- "I want to try and teach it Adobe Illustrator".

And so, after multiple checks and some fudging here and there, the wookiee lures it in with some meat then proceeds to spend the next hour trying to explain to it how Illustrator works, confusing the rancor considerably before it finally gets up and stomps away seriously questioning what on earth just happened. We still laugh about that story, and I do not regret allowing for him to do that (especially since he passed like five checks to make it happen and somehow never got disadvantage and managed to get a triumph or two as well).

Edited by evo454
BONUS ROUND

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16 hours ago, themensch said:

Any discussion of reality within a fantasy setting must be taken with a grain of salt, particularly when dealing with a setting that is actively changing with every new canonical source.

Well it's a lot like "truthiness." You don't need scientific accuracy, just enough to make it believable and consistent. 

I can use real world EMP to explain why your droid and cybernetic arm would short out from an Ion grenade but your blaster won't. Typically I don't need to explain it, but it's nice to know I can, and might inspire me down the road when writing an adventure.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

And the new films do both of these things repeatedly with their approach to hyperspace (into/out of gravity wells & atmospheres, as a weapon, "hovering" on standby in hyperspace, etc.). I think having hyperspace be a place rather than a state of being is a bad idea. The 1990s version of hyperspace spelled out by WEG maintains cohesion and avoids all of this crap.

I think automatically making comparisons to the new movies regarding these concepts is a large part of what is fueling this disdain and is essentially throwing the baby out with bathwater. 

You can still break the “rules” and not create disrespectful material as if your first name was spelled with an “i” instead of a “y.” 

Don’t let poor delivery disuade you from the foundations of good storytelling. 

Also of note, even if hyperspace is a “state of being” it still interacts with the rest of the material universe since there’s a need to plot a course before you “fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova...”

and all my examples that you left out show hyperspace not as a place...

 

Edited by Flavorabledeez

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3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

And the new films do both of these things repeatedly with their approach to hyperspace (into/out of gravity wells & atmospheres, as a weapon, "hovering" on standby in hyperspace, etc.). I think having hyperspace be a place rather than a state of being is a bad idea. The 1990s version of hyperspace spelled out by WEG maintains cohesion and avoids all of this crap.

There's plenty of ways to explain such things that would still put you in compliance with the classic approach.

After all, we do know that by default can be dialed down, otherwise the Flacon would have arrived at Endor an hour before everyone else. So it's not a stretch to have a unit jump to a close by location, dial the Hyperdrive down to x10 or something, and then chart a circular jump that passes by the target every few minutes make a jump and wait for a signal. 

Clone Wars had an accidental in-atmo jump and made a point of having it be a very bad thing. So for Old NPC Han to do it intentionally as a stupid smuggler trick is believable, as doing a super-close jump exit would be a smuggling tactic. I'm sure for every smuggler that did it successfully there's hundreds of others we never heard from again.

Likewise a hyper-ram is pretty darn tricky. Do it at the wrong time and either you impact going sublight like in R1, or you enter hyperspace early and fly right through them. Again, for an NPC to save the stupid players hash by doing it is different than allowing a player to do it at-will...

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