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Rich P

January changes - prepare to be disappointed

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3 hours ago, flooze said:

I agree here. Absolutely. 

I haven't been to many extended tournament yet. But what I see in our weekly evenings is that extended is diverse and fun to play. 

Agreed, few minor adjustments needed but not the end of the world. We have a bunch of variety and it's great fun

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3 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

\o/ Preach it \o/

FFG made a sucker out of me with 2.0.  Now they're flat-out shouting, "SUCKER!"  

And I've had enough with the "FFG is a COMPANY and needs NOOBS, so sod off you old-timers!"  If your business model is based on alienating a substantial portion of your existing customer base, and trading them for what you HOPE will be the same number or more of noobs, then I would not want to be your accountant.

Come to think of it, this sounds just like what the KK Clan at LFL/Disney has done with TLJ . . . .

Careful, friend. Mods would prefer that we keep everything civil and respectful, and it’s hard to do that when people invoke the Klan. 

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2 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

\o/ Preach it \o/

FFG made a sucker out of me with 2.0.  Now they're flat-out shouting, "SUCKER!"  

And I've had enough with the "FFG is a COMPANY and needs NOOBS, so sod off you old-timers!"  If your business model is based on alienating a substantial portion of your existing customer base, and trading them for what you HOPE will be the same number or more of noobs, then I would not want to be your accountant.

Come to think of it, this sounds just like what the KK Clan at LFL/Disney has done with TLJ . . . .

First of all, have we seen any evidence that Extended is being completely abandoned?  Just because they want to develop Hyperspace a bit more doesn't mean that they're dropping Extended altogether.

Secondly, you assume that Hyperspace is somehow anti-Veteran.  Yes, there are those who bought the conversion kits and feel that they should be able to use any of their ships at any event, but there are also those who bought the conversion kits and still don't mind--or even <gasp> enjoy--playing with a more restricted pool.  If you don't like the format, fine.  But you don't need to take it as an affront to all veteran players everywhere.

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Yup, methinks the community as a whole is dramatically overestimating both the quantity, quality, and magnitude of the point changes.

Write down the top 10 things you think need to be adjusted. It will be a random 4 of those plus 2 random things no one even thought needed adjusting. Also there will be a bad thing that gets nerfed and an overpowered thing that gets buffed for some reason.

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3 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

\o/ Preach it \o/

FFG made a sucker out of me with 2.0.  Now they're flat-out shouting, "SUCKER!"  

And I've had enough with the "FFG is a COMPANY and needs NOOBS, so sod off you old-timers!"  If your business model is based on alienating a substantial portion of your existing customer base, and trading them for what you HOPE will be the same number or more of noobs, then I would not want to be your accountant.

Come to think of it, this sounds just like what the KK Clan at LFL/Disney has done with TLJ . . . .

The level of salt here is even higher than that of Crait!

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TL:DR OP predicts only Hyperspace will have point changes, extended will remain the same.

 

Makes sense, the prediction that is. OP is focusing on Hyperspace as it is apparent they made that the format for nationals and worlds. Now will they get the balance right that is another story. Still wake me when Hyperspace has more than 3-5 ships per faction.

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22 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

I saw this a million times with GW, no matter what they do and what tweaks they make, there will ALWAYS be combos and workarounds folk will find. the ONLY way to not have that happen is to turn it into a chess board where everything is the same between factions, where it is gridded out and we get to choose nothing. 

This is a false dichotomy. 

I am old enough to recall when GW was nearly the only option for tabletop fantasy or scifi. 

Others came up and ate market share because they made better games with stronger mechanics and play-testing. 

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3 hours ago, prauxim said:

Write down the top 10 things you think need to be adjusted. It will be a random 4 of those plus 2 random things no one even thought needed adjusting. Also there will be a bad thing that gets nerfed and an overpowered thing that gets buffed for some reason.

Everything except the cost of Jakku Gunrunner. It's not being played that often anymore.

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4 hours ago, prauxim said:

Write down the top 10 things you think need to be adjusted. It will be a random 4 of those plus 2 random things no one even thought needed adjusting. Also there will be a bad thing that gets nerfed and an overpowered thing that gets buffed for some reason.

1. han gunner increased to 8pts

2. jakku gunrunner increased to 30pts

3. bombers increased by at least 2pts

4. Juke increased to 6pts

5. Vader crew increased by 4pts

6. Redline increased by at least 4pts

7. Give the shadowcaster a linked action to rotate its mobile firing arc.

8. Scurrg Bomber decrease by a few points and needs an extra slot

9. generic E-wings cheaper

10. generic A-wings cheaper

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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6 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

And I've had enough with the "FFG is a COMPANY and needs NOOBS, so sod off you old-timers!"  If your business model is based on alienating a substantial portion of your existing customer base, and trading them for what you HOPE will be the same number or more of noobs, then I would not want to be your accountant.

Just because you don't understand yet how it works doesn't mean it's wrong.

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1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

9. generic x-wings cheaper

I think you mean 'E-Wings'...

They're not going to reduce generic X-Wings, which have clearly been priced specifically to cap at 4 in a squad! ;)

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2 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

I think you mean 'E-Wings'...

They're not going to reduce generic X-Wings, which have clearly been priced specifically to cap at 4 in a squad! ;)

yep, E-Wings. none playing them right now. they need some help. edit made to my previous post.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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23 hours ago, william1134 said:

What a load of rubbish.  I am not a fan of hyperspace and I would be highly disappointed if "extended" was largely ignored by the developers. I have spent quite a bit of money on the conversion kits and it is unacceptable for it to be abandoned. 

Exactly ^

So is this goung to be ANOTHER Hyperspace vs EXTENDED Thread?

The title is clickbait, as i expected to see some funded reasons why the point cost adaptations will be bad,  not Hyperspace>Extended yet again.

It doesn’t help that certain bandwagoners now actively encourage FFG to take a huge dump on Extended.

Mind you, Extended is where a large part of the old community sits, and 2.0 promised a balanced game. Expecting perfect balance is not realistic, but improving as much as humanly possible on Extended is what a lot of people still want and expect.

Respect that, FFG!

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1 minute ago, ForceM said:

Respect that, FFG!

You are still fighting windmills

As if FFG would shift their balancing priorities - work that has been most likely completed by now or at least is nearly finished - due to some forum threads.

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You are still fighting windmills

As if FFG would shift their balancing priorities - work that has been most likely completed by now or at least is nearly finished - due to some forum threads.

Forum threads no, sales drop yes. Even GW ended up having to give fans what they wanted, at least partially. 

 

IMO FFG is taking a gamble regarding old player retention vs. new player influx, not only regarding Hyperspace itself (I think it's a good idea, I just don't trust FFG is able to properly execute it) but also regarding the way they are (not) communicating stuff. 

 

Time will tell if the gamble pays off or not. 

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I wish this was a troll post, but I didn’t want it to become another hyperspace vs extended drudgery. 

Simply put, folk seem to be building up the January points revisions as the thing that will solve all of their perceived issues with the game. 

I think that is a fools errand. FFG have said that they won’t balance the game, rather adjust points to drive shifts in the meta. Irrespective of format, FFG are not aiming for a balanced game so we should stop thinking of points revisions as ‘points balancing’ or anything similar.  

My thought on hyperspace is that it is easier to control the presence of dominant combos with a smaller card pool, so it makes for a much better competitive format where the focus can be on how someone flies a list, their tactics, strategies etc rather than what combo of cards they have sitting on the table. 

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1 minute ago, william1134 said:

Hey, can you provide a source for this? 

Current points costs are enough of a source. Look at Resistance A wings vs rebel A-Wings. Same cost but gain blue 3 bank, rear turret and a tech slot

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3 hours ago, ForceM said:

The title is clickbait, as i expected to see some funded reasons why the point cost adaptations will be bad,  not Hyperspace>Extended yet again.

It doesn’t help that certain bandwagoners now actively encourage FFG to take a huge dump on Extended.

You are exactly the target audience for this thread, you know. Expecting that this thread title would enumerate reasons why it adjustments will be ‘bad’ seems to implicitly accept that you can’t reasonably balance Extended in a way that makes everyone happy. 

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You are still fighting windmills

As if FFG would shift their balancing priorities - work that has been most likely completed by now or at least is nearly finished - due to some forum threads.

They are a company and while not perfect, they have shown in the past that they are reasonable.

When, they see how Hyperspace leads into a dead end, and that what they are trying now is going against a part of their customers, they will come to reason.

Chances for this are even very good eventually.

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23 hours ago, svelok said:

TL;DR - aces are too efficient, and torps are one of the reasons

Proton torps are sort of a problem, but the combo isn't any specific handful of pilots (Redline is busted, but that's sort of almost a different thing), but with high initiative being too efficient in general.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&amp;a1=BgM&amp;a2=BQc&amp;a3=BQM

So, this is what you get from a random torpedo alpha strike list - Wedge/Luke/Thane, I6/5/5, all with Proton Torps. One is double modded (force); shooting into a ship with 2 agility and a focus. For reference, this list currently costs 189 points (with nothing else).

If you're taking generics, they're moving after you to get a lock, and shooting before you to deny you return shots. There's an 80% chance one of your 4 generic X-Wings or whatever dead before they shoot, 25%+ of your firepower off the field immediately. Even if we're talking a full swarm of Z-95s, it's **** close to killing two of them anyways, and you move first so if you brought missiles they're not going off.

If you thought you were a cool kid, and brought 4 Blue Squadron Escorts with Torps, because surely the generics are more efficient in a pure joust... you were wrong, because you lost one already, so this round you're just throwing 3x 3 dice w/ focus (70% chance Thane/Wedge survive, way higher for Luke). And next round you're in range to take your locks, but then the aces take another one off the table at I5, so now you're throwing two torp shots, and either finishing off the ace you wounded the turn before or starting to work on a second, but that's basically as far as you're getting and if you left Luke for last he now basically never dies and can solo you naked (even though he won't have to, because there's half a Thane or Wedge left who still shoots before you).

So obviously this is a contrived situation, and not exactly a tournament winning list. The point, though, is that the aces with proton torps are more efficient than the generics! Like, that's insane, right? The whole point of generics is meant to be efficiency, but the aces who also move last, have abilites, and shoot first, are better at it!

It's a pretty similar story with other random generics (krayt thread discussing X-Wings and Soontir/Redline/Whisper vs TIE /sf here and vs TIE Strikers a bit after that). And it's not like the points increase required to banish it is oppressive - this random example is at 189, so making Torps cost 3 points more would make it strictly illegal. Upping the aces would accomplish the same thing, while also making them less efficient in non-torpedo circumstances and other builds. Taking the torps out of that list reduces its odds of alpha-striking one of the XXXX list off the table by half, to 40%.

You can't take the torps out of the list without also directly hurting the generics who rely on said torps for efficiency.

If anything, this whole post made an argument to increase the cost of the Aces who run the torps, not the torps themselves....

Increase the cost of the Aces, so you can only run two torps instead of three. The generics are the same. Suddenly the whole scenario falls apart.

(I suppose you could also in isolation increase the cost of torps on specific ships only, but I think they are trying to avoid that for now)

Edited by Gibbilo

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