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Rich P

January changes - prepare to be disappointed

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I’ve seen a lot of folk talking about the balancing points changes coming this month, and a few noisy community voices talking about what points need to go up up up (punishers, bombers, quadjumpers, Palob, Han gunn...aw heck - all scum) 

but I am reminded of the early days of 2.0 hype when Alex, Frank and Max were doing web videos they said that points changes would be used to cause shifts in the meta of what was nd wasn’t played. 

The extended game will never be balanced. To expect that is ludicrous. I’m hoping the developers target their energy into getting hyperspace where it should be rather than flogging the dead horse that is extended. 

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Very true. To expect anything else would be... well, stupid. FF is a company and when push comes to shove, they have to look at their bottom line and we as customers have to expect that because if the company didnt, out of business they go and we wasted our money and time. So we have to work with them as much as they do with us.

I saw this a million times with GW, no matter what they do and what tweaks they make, there will ALWAYS be combos and workarounds folk will find. the ONLY way to not have that happen is to turn it into a chess board where everything is the same between factions, where it is gridded out and we get to choose nothing. 

Our best bet is to let them get "everything out and completed and work on the "tournament stuff or "official stuff". THEN work on the tweaks and trims to fiddle with what balancing they can do (knowing it will never be perfect. Because if we dont let them do that first, anything they do will be outdated and need redone with each and every release.

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I would like to add that their approach might change over time.

For now their main priority has to be launching CIS and Republic, and get the OP up&running with 7 factions.

Then the smaller fournfactions have to be brought up to size. This will probably take all of 2019 or longer.

And just then do I expect the game to be in a spot where they will focus on balancing, maybe now with the intention of altering the meta. All the point cost changes before will be bandaids rather than meta shakeups.

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"Will never be balanced" as in "perfect balance is unachievable"? Well, that's a given, barely worthy of a discussion.

Or "will never be balanced" as in "they'll never even bother trying"? I'd say that's overly pessimistic. GW's attempts with Chapter Approved and The General's Handbook certainly haven't been the Definitive Solution in game balancing, but all the books they've released has improved their respective games tremendously. X-Wing is nowhere near as big of a mess as Warhammer is, and it's reasonable to expect the game to be in a better place after the adjustments, than before.

Edited by Okapi

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its entirely possible that FFG will target Hyperspace ships only for rebalancing. this will leave everything else as it is, untouched and playable in Extended Format.

so looking just at current hyperspace legal ships/upgrades im guessing han gunner will get price increase closer to 10pts total cost.

proton Torps would be another hyperpsace legal card getting increase, im guess closer to 12pts total.

Marauder title is a bit too cheap and i can see that going up a few points to maybe 5-6pts total.

what they do with the 3 falcons is anyones guess. maybe the generic pilots will get a small reduction in cost?

Redline def needs looking at but as hes not hyperspace legal they might hit ordnance/bombs? My guess is they will target the upgrades Redline typically takes such as Trajectory Simulator?

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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1 minute ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

proton Torps would be another hyperpsace legal card getting increase, im guess closer to 12pts total.

Redline def needs looking at but as hes not hyperspace legal they might hit ordnance/bombs? My guess is they will target the upgrades Redline typically takes such as Trajectory Simulator?

I'd leave both Proton Torpedoes and Trajectory Simulator where they are. The problem is Redline, and to an extent the Scimitar Squadron Pilot. Move those up (50 and 30?), and the problem mostly goes away. Maybe +2 points for Deathrain as well. It's not like Y-Wings and X-Wings with protorps are a huge meta concern, or that proton/sim Starfortresses will turn the game on its head.

Ion Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles could stand to lose a point or two though.

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1 minute ago, Okapi said:

I'd leave both Proton Torpedoes and Trajectory Simulator where they are. The problem is Redline, and to an extent the Scimitar Squadron Pilot. Move those up (50 and 30?), and the problem mostly goes away. Maybe +2 points for Deathrain as well. It's not like Y-Wings and X-Wings with protorps are a huge meta concern, or that proton/sim Starfortresses will turn the game on its head.

Ion Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles could stand to lose a point or two though.

i agree with you about hittting the ships themselves. imperial bombers are way too cheap. I hope FFG do make changes to them.its needed. ihope they look at extended ships as well as hyperspace legal ones. 

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One also needs to consider we're dealing with FFG here, not some game balancing masterminds. If their past 1.0 rebalances (errata and fix cards) are any indication, there's a roughly equal chance whatever they choose to rebalance will be:

- Fine and balanced

- In the same place as it was (still overpowered or still not worth bothering with) 

- Completely flipped (unusable stuff becomes overpowered, overpowered stuff becomes unusable)

 

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3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

I’ve seen a lot of folk talking about the balancing points changes coming this month, and a few noisy community voices talking about what points need to go up up up (punishers, bombers, quadjumpers, Palob, Han gunn...aw heck - all scum) 

but I am reminded of the early days of 2.0 hype when Alex, Frank and Max were doing web videos they said that points changes would be used to cause shifts in the meta of what was nd wasn’t played. 

The extended game will never be balanced. To expect that is ludicrous. I’m hoping the developers target their energy into getting hyperspace where it should be rather than flogging the dead horse that is extended. 

I actually think completely the opposite. Players new to the game (which obviously need to be encouraged) are the ones Hyperspace is aimed at with the 'new' 2.0 packs. If you are new to the game, the last thing they want to do is confuse people with points changes. On that basis I reckon most of the amendments will be with non-hyperspace legal stuff affecting those if us that know tge game already and are actually looking forward to some more rebalancing.

Edited by Gallanteer

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5 hours ago, Dreadai said:

I’ve seen a lot of folk talking about the balancing points changes coming this month, and a few noisy community voices talking about what points need to go up up up (punishers, bombers, quadjumpers, Palob, Han gunn...aw heck - all scum) 

but I am reminded of the early days of 2.0 hype when Alex, Frank and Max were doing web videos they said that points changes would be used to cause shifts in the meta of what was nd wasn’t played. 

The extended game will never be balanced. To expect that is ludicrous. I’m hoping the developers target their energy into getting hyperspace where it should be rather than flogging the dead horse that is extended. 

I agree completely and have been making this point in other threads. 

Thanks to Gold Squadron (@Musical Xeno) for compiling the list of community opinions on costs! If it’s Extended and not top 3 for that faction, don’t get your hopes up too much. And for E-Wings (which I voted for to bring costs down), also keep your hopes in check...

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2 hours ago, Okapi said:

I'd leave both Proton Torpedoes and Trajectory Simulator where they are. The problem is Redline, and to an extent the Scimitar Squadron Pilot. Move those up (50 and 30?), and the problem mostly goes away. Maybe +2 points for Deathrain as well. It's not like Y-Wings and X-Wings with protorps are a huge meta concern, or that proton/sim Starfortresses will turn the game on its head.

Ion Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles could stand to lose a point or two though.

You know Proton Torpedoes are literally the most used card in the game, right? It’s a particular problem on some chassis, but it’s not like taking 3x torps from a triple X-Wing list is uncommon, either...

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33 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

You know Proton Torpedoes are literally the most used card in the game, right? It’s a particular problem on some chassis, but it’s not like taking 3x torps from a triple X-Wing list is uncommon, either...

 

It's also not like those lists are dominating either...QED torps aren't the problem, specific pilots are.

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2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

It's also not like those lists are dominating either...QED torps aren't the problem, specific pilots are.

And protorps are available to all factions, unlike Whisper, Palob, Redline, Vader, ScumHanGunner... To me protorps  are fine but if they go up I'd say max +1 point. The other torps need a rebate.

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TL;DR - aces are too efficient, and torps are one of the reasons

3 hours ago, Okapi said:

I'd leave both Proton Torpedoes and Trajectory Simulator where they are. The problem is Redline, and to an extent the Scimitar Squadron Pilot. Move those up (50 and 30?), and the problem mostly goes away. Maybe +2 points for Deathrain as well. It's not like Y-Wings and X-Wings with protorps are a huge meta concern, or that proton/sim Starfortresses will turn the game on its head.

37 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

You know Proton Torpedoes are literally the most used card in the game, right? It’s a particular problem on some chassis, but it’s not like taking 3x torps from a triple X-Wing list is uncommon, either...

Proton torps are sort of a problem, but the combo isn't any specific handful of pilots (Redline is busted, but that's sort of almost a different thing), but with high initiative being too efficient in general.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=BgM&a2=BQc&a3=BQM

So, this is what you get from a random torpedo alpha strike list - Wedge/Luke/Thane, I6/5/5, all with Proton Torps. One is double modded (force); shooting into a ship with 2 agility and a focus. For reference, this list currently costs 189 points (with nothing else).

If you're taking generics, they're moving after you to get a lock, and shooting before you to deny you return shots. There's an 80% chance one of your 4 generic X-Wings or whatever dead before they shoot, 25%+ of your firepower off the field immediately. Even if we're talking a full swarm of Z-95s, it's **** close to killing two of them anyways, and you move first so if you brought missiles they're not going off.

If you thought you were a cool kid, and brought 4 Blue Squadron Escorts with Torps, because surely the generics are more efficient in a pure joust... you were wrong, because you lost one already, so this round you're just throwing 3x 3 dice w/ focus (70% chance Thane/Wedge survive, way higher for Luke). And next round you're in range to take your locks, but then the aces take another one off the table at I5, so now you're throwing two torp shots, and either finishing off the ace you wounded the turn before or starting to work on a second, but that's basically as far as you're getting and if you left Luke for last he now basically never dies and can solo you naked (even though he won't have to, because there's half a Thane or Wedge left who still shoots before you).

So obviously this is a contrived situation, and not exactly a tournament winning list. The point, though, is that the aces with proton torps are more efficient than the generics! Like, that's insane, right? The whole point of generics is meant to be efficiency, but the aces who also move last, have abilites, and shoot first, are better at it!

It's a pretty similar story with other random generics (krayt thread discussing X-Wings and Soontir/Redline/Whisper vs TIE /sf here and vs TIE Strikers a bit after that). And it's not like the points increase required to banish it is oppressive - this random example is at 189, so making Torps cost 3 points more would make it strictly illegal. Upping the aces would accomplish the same thing, while also making them less efficient in non-torpedo circumstances and other builds. Taking the torps out of that list reduces its odds of alpha-striking one of the XXXX list off the table by half, to 40%.

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10 minutes ago, mcintma said:

And protorps are available to all factions

The target of balancing effort should be a squad or a ship, never a faction. The reason is that you will never be able to use all tools of a faction in a game, but you always have everything of your squad (or ship).

That also means any argument with "all factions have it and that makes it ok" falls flat. It's not even wrong, it is irrelevant.

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I just want to point out (again) that "perfect balance" is not required.  It may well be impossible ... but that doesn't matter, because it's not required for a healthy game.

All that's required is that balance be good enough -- tight enough above or below a baseline -- that the difference can and will be easily lost in player skill and in variance.

I fully believe that is possible to achieve, and I think the FFG designers have given themselves the tools to be able to do it.  (I am less confident that the FFG designers have the understanding necessary to do it (especially, e.g., an understanding on Init values as they interact with pilot abilities, repositioning actions, and upgrades), but I'm hopeful.  We'll know soon, probably, whether they understand the problems.)

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I don’t think I’ll be disappointed. There will minor adjustments surely but the “balance” I expect will revolve around Hyperspace as it will be the easiest to do (5 factions and only 20 ships) ~ Hyperspace should be where FFG focuses on the balance as it is slowly going to become the preferred gameplay . 

I guess if there’s one ship in Hyperspace I hope they look at its the X1 (all pilots including Vader) but I expect adjustments across the Hyperspace board.

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5 hours ago, Okapi said:

"Will never be balanced" as in "perfect balance is unachievable"? Well, that's a given, barely worthy of a discussion.

Or "will never be balanced" as in "they'll never even bother trying"? I'd say that's overly pessimistic. GW's attempts with Chapter Approved and The General's Handbook certainly haven't been the Definitive Solution in game balancing, but all the books they've released has improved their respective games tremendously. X-Wing is nowhere near as big of a mess as Warhammer is, and it's reasonable to expect the game to be in a better place after the adjustments, than before.

WarmaHordes has like around 13 factions and they just launched another new one with the Crucible Guard. Each faction has multiple Themes which can shape how the faction plays, adding special abilities and its point costs.

WMH is also known as one of the best balanced tabletop wargames out there, and they don't stop making balance passes with community feedback. Sure, there is always something that needs to be looked at, but that doesn't mean that you ever stop trying to balance the game, you just keep working at it and you help stop the game from becoming a dumpster fire like FFG did when they kept bolting on cards and making up power-creep cards like they did at the end of 1E.

 

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Nonsense!  This is the Second Edition X-Wing forum!  The proper thing to do, obviously, is to take what little information we have, and speculate away as to what ships will be balanced and how!  Then, we assume that all these guesses are the only possible interpretation, and if any of them are wrong, it means FFG lied to us and everyone who urged caution were simply FFG plants!

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31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The target of balancing effort should be a squad or a ship, never a faction. The reason is that you will never be able to use all tools of a faction in a game, but you always have everything of your squad (or ship).

That also means any argument with "all factions have it and that makes it ok" falls flat. It's not even wrong, it is irrelevant.

Respectfully disagree - you have to consider what is/is not available to the faction when balancing the ships, so you are balancing a faction (what myriad combos it can put on the table as a squad) vs. each other faction. Regen or Selfless/Biggs in Soontir or Whisper lists might be a prob, for ex. 

I didn't state that something being available to all factions automatically makes it balanced. However its availability is a non-irrelevant factor to consider when balancing factions. I believe alot of players would be cheesed if only Rebels had protorps, for ex.

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