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Hiemfire

An idea on how they could bring the Mangler Cannon into Second Edition

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First of all, to get this out of the way since I had it come up in a wish list thread awhile back, Bossk pilot only affects his primary attacks now, so this would not trigger his pilot ability.

•Bossk

 

Now that that is done, on to my idea.

Mangler Cannon (Cannon slot upgrade obviously). Front Arc 3 red. Range 2-3. Card text: After the Neutralize Results step, if the defender is in your Bullseye arc, change 1 hit result to a crit result.

The First Edition upgrade was 4 points, which is equivalent to 8 point in Second Ed which I think might be a little steep, so maybe 6 pts for the upgrade.

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12 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Forward Arc Firepower 3, range 1-3

[Attack] If the defender is in your bullseye arc, you may change a <hit> result into a <crit> result

Too close to what a Saber Ace or Black Squardon Scout with Marksmanship could do when at range 1 for my taste. I was trying to avoid that. :)

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They shouldn't.  Ever.  Cannons should never be a straight upgrade over a 3 primary, let alone a 2 primary, because the T70 exists and that Cannon would then completely obviate its s-foil 'penalty'.

I could see Mangler coming back as say, 3 attack range 1-3, on a hit deal 2 damage if the target is shielded, or 1 critical damage if it's not, but doing straight dice is a mistake they shouldn't make with any V-arc cannon.  Just maybe if it were Bullseye only.

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49 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They shouldn't.  Ever.  Cannons should never be a straight upgrade over a 3 primary, let alone a 2 primary, because the T70 exists and that Cannon would then completely obviate its s-foil 'penalty'.

I could see Mangler coming back as say, 3 attack range 1-3, on a hit deal 2 damage if the target is shielded, or 1 critical damage if it's not, but doing straight dice is a mistake they shouldn't make with any V-arc cannon.  Just maybe if it were Bullseye only.

I'm having a hard time believing that you actually read my suggestion since your proposal would actually be nastier if fielded than what I proposed.

My suggested setup:

6 pts

Front Arc 3 red

Range 2-3 

Card text: "After the Neutralize Results step, if the defender is in your Bullseye arc, change 1 hit result to a crit result."

Yours triggers in the entire front arc, range 1-3 (so is tossing 4 dice at range 1), and blows through 2 shields regardless of how many hits actually got through. Mine has the 3 red outside of range one (so no range 1 bonus), only has it's ability trigger in bullseye outside of range 1 and the ability is the same as Marksmanship. Why the **** would a 3 red with cannon slot dump 6 points for an abbreviated range Marksmanship? The best a T-70 gets out of this is that it has 3 dice flat range 1-3 outside of arc (the cannon can't shoot at range one so the T-70 is limited to its primary) and a bullseye talent simile that has had 1/3rd of it's area chopped. Do you consider open S-Foil T-65s with Marksmanship too potent? That's what a T-70 would be paying to become a worse version of if they took this, other than the linked Focus > Red Barrel Roll they get from having their foils closed.

Integrated S-foils (Closed)Servomotor S-foils (Closed)

 

Edited by Hiemfire

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm having a hard time believing that you actually read my suggestion since your proposal would actually be nastier if fielded than what I proposed.

My suggested setup:

6 pts

Front Arc 3 red

Range 2-3 

Card text: "After the Neutralize Results step, if the defender is in your Bullseye arc, change 1 hit result to a crit result."

Yours triggers in the entire front arc, range 1-3 (so is tossing 4 dice at range 1), and blows through 2 shields regardless of how many hits actually got through. Mine has the 3 red outside of range one (so no range 1 bonus), only has it's ability trigger in bullseye outside of range 1 and the ability is the same as Marksmanship. Why the **** would a 3 red with cannon slot dump 6 points for an abbreviated range Marksmanship? The best a T-70 gets out of this is that it has 3 dice flat range 1-3 outside of arc (the cannon can't shoot at range one so the T-70 is limited to its primary) and a bullseye talent simile that has had 1/3rd of it's area chopped. Do you consider open S-Foil T-65s with Marksmanship too potent? That's what a T-70 would be paying to become a worse version of if they took this, other than the linked Focus > Red Barrel Roll they get from having their foils closed.

Integrated S-foils (Closed)Servomotor S-foils (Closed)

 

Mine was a half-assed barely thought through idea.

Yours was serious.

Mine was intended to be roughly balanced against shielded versus unshielded ships, but I'd be quite happy to see it just do a critical damage regardless of whether the target is shielded or not.

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What about range 1-3, 3 dice, first hit is a critical, further hits deal stress?

Defender rolls an additional defense die at range three.

Like a space shotgun.

We could call it the flechette cannon 🤣

Edited by Scum4Life
Spelling

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7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Mangler Cannon (Cannon slot upgrade obviously). Front Arc 3 red. Range 2-3. Card text: After the Neutralize Results step, if the defender is in your Bullseye arc, change 1 hit result to a crit result.

(...) 6 pts for the upgrade.

This is very good!

I specially like how it's limited to range 2-3 (Mangler in 1st edition was ridiculous).

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9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Card text: After the Neutralize Results step, if the defender is in your Bullseye arc, change 1 hit result to a crit result.

My concern is that that's basically just Marksmanship. 1.0 manglers also had the important role of giving no range 3 defence bonus.

I don't mind an increased-odds-of-criticals cannon, but it really needs to function in a different way.

 

 

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It doesn't have to actually be a secondary weapon - you could just have the ability text you want and have it apply to the equipped ship's (bullseye) or (forward arc) primary attack. That would solve the issue of granting 2 attack ships access to a 3 attack upgrade.

for example:
"After you perform a (forward arc) primary attack *that hits*, you may look at the defender's facedown damage cards, choose 1, and expose it."

Edited by Transmogrifier
change to wording (*that hits*)

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17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Too close to what a Saber Ace or Black Squardon Scout with Marksmanship could do when at range 1 for my taste. I was trying to avoid that. :)

Okay, how about this

Forward Arc, Firepower 3, Range 1-3

[Attack] If the defender is in your bulls-eye arc the first damage card dealt is always flipped face up. Deal all other damage cards face down.

There you go, a bit like a HLC but with the bullseye bonus, however it is capped at 1 face up damage card. A guaranteed face up if you can get in bullseye arc.

 

Any ways I am still waiting for 2nd Edition Plasma Torpedoes.

Charge 2

Forward Arc, Firepower 4, Range 2-3

[Attack: Target Lock]. Spend 1 charge token to perform this attack. If this attack hits the Defender must discard a shield token if able to.

Edited by Marinealver

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12 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I kind of don't want a 3-dice normal damage cannon.  There's no way to balance one around the Scyk and Gunboat (and S-Foils closed T-70...), as well as the B-Wing and Aggressor (particularly IG-88 B).

giphy.gif

But that's just my opinion.

What about range 2-3, 3 attack 3: if this attack hits, cancel all dice and deal one critical damage? 

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1 hour ago, PaulRuddSays said:

What about range 2-3, 3 attack 3: if this attack hits, cancel all dice and deal one critical damage? 

Only way I can see it happening, else just a 2 dice cannon that turns all hits to crits.

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I think it's a question of design space and opportunity costs. If you make a cannon upgrade that is just a flat improvement to a ship's primary attack under all circumstances, it's going to either need to be really expensive (to the point of being essentially a dead card), or it will push out all the other cannon options since it always generates a benefit rather than the other options, which are currently all pretty niche. It's like Fire Control System in 1.0 - sure it was undercosted, but even at a higher price, the functionality offered (massive increase in offensive dice modification) was leaps and bounds better than the other options presented by other system upgrades. To the point that Fire Control System was essentially auto-include if you were bothering to take a system upgrade. Basically, upgrades with broad application / no trade-offs make the squad building less interesting.

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28 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I think it's a question of design space and opportunity costs. If you make a cannon upgrade that is just a flat improvement to a ship's primary attack under all circumstances, it's going to either need to be really expensive (to the point of being essentially a dead card), or it will push out all the other cannon options since it always generates a benefit rather than the other options, which are currently all pretty niche. It's like Fire Control System in 1.0 - sure it was undercosted, but even at a higher price, the functionality offered (massive increase in offensive dice modification) was leaps and bounds better than the other options presented by other system upgrades. To the point that Fire Control System was essentially auto-include if you were bothering to take a system upgrade. Basically, upgrades with broad application / no trade-offs make the squad building less interesting.

So even with it not having any effect in range 1 and having to get through an in bullseye target's defenses in ranges 2-3 to gain the hit to crit adjustment, it worries them? Just because they see the 3 (V) ?

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We're also forgetting that point values can be adjusted ship to ship or even leveraged to its primary fire value or base size! 

So, let's go with it costs more if the primary fire value is 2 and less if its 3 or higher, then higher on large based ships compared to mid and small bases.

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3 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

We're also forgetting that point values can be adjusted ship to ship or even leveraged to its primary fire value or base size! 

So, let's go with it costs more if the primary fire value is 2 and less if its 3 or higher, then higher on large based ships compared to mid and small bases.

We think they can. That dial may not be that finely set up...

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We've seen it done with other upgrades, I can't imagine they wouldn't program that functionality into the back end just in case...

-memories of the app's initial launch rushes back to his conciousness-

Okay! So, I hope this is something they'll add in on the backend eventually for future/potential upgrades!

Edited by Kehl_Aecea

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