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RittsMJ

Did FFG actually learn from v1?

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At the beginning of v2.0 I thought FFG had learned from v1. After a several games of Hyperspace, I'm starting to wonder if they actually learned anything. Issues I see with potential fixes:

1. Pre-move re-positioning with perfect (or near perfect) knowledge. Supernatural + Kylo + Snoke is a problem. Fixes:

1a. Cost Supernatural appropriately (like Luke Gunner appropriately), 30+ seems reasonable

1b. Ban Supernatural from Hyperspace. Leave it in Extended because there are tools / other powerful combos to deal with it.

2. Action-less, condition-less mods & no skill mods (e.g. Boba, Han gunner). This is less bad than #1, but still feels like it removes skill from the planning phase*. I think things like Fearless, Fanatical, and Heroic are ok due to being faction-locked and having conditions.

2a. Cost them appropriately. Han gunner needs a big bump IMO. Probably equivalent to force crew, so 12+ points. Boba needs a small adjustment IMO. Others could probably use a small bump as well.

2b. Give everything action-less mods and we'll be right back to v1.

*Use your Escape craft to coordinate a reinforce to Boba, who blue maneuvers (bump is fine), into Han-gunner with perceptive co-pilot. Boba proceeds to wreck and take limited damage no matter how many guns you have on him. Is it a lot of points, sure, but you get insane value for those points.

 

TLDR: Things that were a problem in v1 are showing up in v2. I hope FFG balances them appropriately.

 

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37 minutes ago, Nyxen said:

I wish there were a way for Fantasy Flight to course correct after the cards are in our hands... Guess we'll never have a balanced game

We can at least get new pilot cards. I remember back in May, they said that the reason they added subtitles to the unique pilots is so that they can re-release them with different abilities and of course a different subtitle. Upgrade cards don't have this so we are stuck with them other than hyperspace limiting the cards avaliable. 

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havent played extended and have minimal experience playing 2.0 but my initial impressions are...

2.0 is an improved game compared to 1.0. some of the reasons for this are removal of 360 turrets, more varied tactical options (I really like coordinate and linked actions). Less damage mitigation and more game altering face up damage cards.

My feeling is FFG rushed 2.0 and because of this they f^$##d up some stuff such as letting thru some OP things like Han gunner, Redline and Proton Torps.

imo they have focused on points costings for ships which is the base of the game and have built in a rebalancing system that does not require errata. The infrastructure is here to make corrections.

What ffg ACTUALLY learned will be revealed in their first points rebalancing. their points strategy moving fwd will be unveiled.

Points rebalancing is meant to take place every 6 months right???

There is  sh#tload of stuff they COULD do. 

Will any stuff get cheaper? 

will they nerf the **** out of the really good stuff? buff the weakest stuff?or just make some minor adjustments to the OP stuff. They will have a formula in mind is my bet....

OP stuff ppl are complaining about the most (+5 to +8pts increase), Really good stuff thats a little too cheap (+1 to +4pts increase).

seems unlikely they will make generic ships cheaper. more likely the top tier pilots will see a points increase.

Will they make adjustments to upgrade slots on some ships? Theres plenty of ships out there not getting played. Adding slots will encourage ppl to look at them as more playable and help to diversify the meta (You seeing Redline, Bombers, Whisper, Palob, Boba, Kavil, Fenn, Quadjumpers, Luke or Wedge in your meta much?)

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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Well what was it that FFG was supposed to learn? You are correct in your assertions that many of the problems with 1st edition are starting to show up in second edition. You mention mechanics and a slew of fixes but not really the problems other than the usual no skill that has been the straw man argument of X-wing ever since Wave 4. For problems to come up again after a revised edition shows something else. It isn't a particular upgrade card or a ship but rather a deeper component of the core mechanics. Such an example can be found with the initiative span which was scaled down from the Pilot Skill span made a lot of ships now move simultaneously but it didn't address the smile shape power curve between the highest and lowest value. 

To me, you are doing the exact same thing FFG is doing with fixing problems and that is experimenting without a hypothesis. Well of course you predict a better gameplay experience and a perfectly balanced meta but on what metrics are those two abstract goals are measured on? This is what I perceive as FFG's solution to the problems in 1st edition as they move onto 2nd edition. After you print something there is no way to change it. Sure you can put in FAQs however that had its own assortment of a problem within the physical media. So FFG was to put the list building on a platform they can adjust as needed based upon the past tournament data from OP. However in essence they made a retroactive system which means something won't be corrected until just about the next line of product is ready. So if anything along the lines as broken as Jumpmaster on release it will be the first time the wave is released only for it to be nerfed and then the next wave brings out super TLTs by accident.

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1 hour ago, SnooSnarry said:

We can at least get new pilot cards. I remember back in May, they said that the reason they added subtitles to the unique pilots is so that they can re-release them with different abilities and of course a different subtitle. Upgrade cards don't have this so we are stuck with them other than hyperspace limiting the cards avaliable. 

Sorry, I forgot to set sarcasm to (on)

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My biggest concern for the future of 2.0 is... Power Creep.

FFG knows that power creep sells ships. This is what they leaned from 1.0. It makes economic sense for them to make the next expansion better than the previous one.

1.0 is littered with examples of this.

Push the Limit, Twin Laser Turret, Autothrusters. 

Points balancing is a nice backstop for stuff that gets in but does set up a worrying precedent of SELL then NERF. Anyone else own multiple jumpmasters?

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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So if the reason they shifted TO 2.0 was because of power creep in 1.0, and NOW we are (as you say) seeing power creep in 2.0, does this mean we may have them push for a 3.0 soon??

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1 hour ago, LTuser said:

, does this mean we may have them push for a 3.0 soon??

I'd say immediately. 

The new black packaging is awful, so I really can't wait to see the 3.0 graphic designs.

Oh, and the game will always be like this, regardless of editions, because it's played as a sport and not for S and Gs.

But despite being played as a sport, no one will accept the notion of MVPs, forcing this game to be produced on the fallacious proposition that "all components must remain viable," when in fact the game could be in much better shape with the judicious use of the banhammer.

With any luck, Hyperspace can mitigate this problem by creating a rotating pool of novelty. 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'd say immediately. 

The new black packaging is awful, so I really can't wait to see the 3.0 graphic designs.

Oh, and the game will always be like this, regardless of editions, because it's played as a sport and not for S and Gs.

But despite being played as a sport, no one will accept the notion of MVPs, forcing this game to be produced on the fallacious proposition that "all components must remain viable," when in fact the game could be in much better shape with the judicious use of the banhammer.

With any luck, Hyperspace can mitigate this problem by creating a rotating pool of novelty. 

Just stop.

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5 hours ago, Nyxen said:

I wish there were a way for Fantasy Flight to course correct after the cards are in our hands... Guess we'll never have a balanced game

Ideally, they would errata cards after seeing how they fare in the meta environment. Realistically, this would mean card text is unreliable unless you keep current with the FAQ.

A decent compromise is allowing printed proxies if the owner has the original card in the same sleeve. This is the solution I used towards the end of 1.0.

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3 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

My biggest concern for the future of 2.0 is... Power Creep.

1.0 is littered with examples of this.

Push the Limit, Twin Laser Turret, Autothrusters. 

Autothrusters wasn't power creep.

It was an attempt to counter power creep.  And not blatant power creep either, but power creep caused by unforseen changes, i.e. the impact of 360 degree firing arcs.

A lot of examples of so called power creep in first edition, like the above, or Guidance Chips etc, were the result of FFG responding to what the players on the forum were asking for.

"Ordnance is rubbish!  Why should I pay for torpedos or missiles when it's a one off that's hard to set up?"

Couple of changes later...

"Ordnance is OP!  WTF FFG??!!"

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3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Autothrusters wasn't power creep.

It was an attempt to counter power creep.  And not blatant power creep either, but power creep caused by unforseen changes, i.e. the impact of 360 degree firing arcs.

A lot of examples of so called power creep in first edition, like the above, or Guidance Chips etc, were the result of FFG responding to what the players on the forum were asking for.

"Ordnance is rubbish!  Why should I pay for torpedos or missiles when it's a one off that's hard to set up?"

Couple of changes later...

"Ordnance is OP!  WTF FFG??!!"

well autothrusters was a way to deal with Twin Later Turret and 360 arcs. Turned out it was pretty good against everything else as well. Autothrusters contributed to the problem of damage mitigation on high agility ships with easy access to evades and focuses. My point being, you bought expansions that contained that upgrade because it was so good AND you needed it to stay competitive. TLT was the only reason I bought two K-Wings (still have never played the K-Wing itself) and Autothrusters was the only reason I bought a starviper (still have never played the starviper).

360 arcs just took the fun (and a large amount of the skill) out of the game for lots of players. Mobile turrets have improved the situation in 2.0 but the game remains vulnerable to overpowered stuff sneaking back.

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The game is only about 3 months old, and the amount of development that had to go into not only new ships but the conversion kits, having only a few combos that are OP is a testament to what they learned from 1.0.  No, the game isn't perfect, it never will be, but there is definitely a huge positive change from the end of 1.0.  We had dozens of ships and pilots that were just unplayable against even mid tier lists, let alone top lists. The reduction of automatic damage mitigation has helped with keeping 2 attack ships viable (not great,but playable) and very few auto hit 4+ attacks allow low agility/health ships to see the table (again,not great,but playable). 

Look back to how the community responded when Luke gunner was spoiled, FFG either saw this, or already planned to cost him so high that he isn't worth it. This is the real lesson learned, nothing is set in stone, points will be adjusted, we just have to wait. They can release pilots with new subtitles to keep fans happy (and make me spend more money, please make card packs!) 

My only concern comes with development, are they testing new things against just hyperspace legal or with everything. 

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19 minutes ago, Mrk1984 said:

My only concern comes with development, are they testing new things against just hyperspace legal or with everything. 

I honestly think that this is one major reason for hyperspace existing, so that there is a much smaller pool to balance things in and ffg can change what needs to be changed with card reprints when they have a full release.

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I love the sleek minimalism of the art design of 2.0, from the tokens to the packaging. 

Game is cleaner and more fundamental. 

It's able to be fixed more quickly now in a variety of ways. Format, points, etc. 

We SHOULD be seeing icons like Boba, Poe, Wedge, Luke, Kylo, Vader, Han, etc. This is more of the game I thought I was getting into 2 1/2 years ago. 

Excited for the 2.0 run, and count me in for 3.0 too. In it for the long haul. Fun game and I am just fine with the occasional hiccups. 

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1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

I love the sleek minimalism of the art design of 2.0, from the tokens to the packaging. 

Game is cleaner and more fundamental. 

It's able to be fixed more quickly now in a variety of ways. Format, points, etc. 

We SHOULD be seeing icons like Boba, Poe, Wedge, Luke, Kylo, Vader, Han, etc. This is more of the game I thought I was getting into 2 1/2 years ago. 

Excited for the 2.0 run, and count me in for 3.0 too. In it for the long haul. Fun game and I am just fine with the occasional hiccups. 

you see Vader and Han piloting ships ?

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39 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

you see Vader and Han piloting ships ?

Scum Han is around. And Vader is there when people realize he is best as a hammer and not finesse. 

And mark my words, Rebel Han is coming back, and probably within 4 weeks. FFG is not about to let the dearth of large ships slide. There's miniatures to sell. I expect all the large ships to come out with incredible upgrades and costed well when they release their 2.0 iterations. 

 

Book it. 

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Wait. Just to clarify here, are you (the OP) suggesting that Kylo Ren TIE Silencer with Supernatural Reflexes, and Snoke in an Upsilon is too powerful at 163 of your 200 points? Or am I misreading how you're setting up the combination. If I'm totally wrong here, what's the complete squad list that you feel is out of control? (Yes, it's late and I'm tired and probably not seeing the obvious here...)

Starkiller Base Pilot (56)
Supreme Leader Snoke (13)

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

Total: 163

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited by Slugrage

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4 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

Wait. Just to clarify here, are you (the OP) suggesting that Kylo Ren TIE Silencer with Supernatural Reflexes, and Snoke in an Upsilon is too powerful at 163 of your 200 points? Or am I misreading how you're setting up the combination. If I'm totally wrong here, what's the complete squad list that you feel is out of control? (Yes, it's late and I'm tired and probably not seeing the obvious here...)

Starkiller Base Pilot (56)
Supreme Leader Snoke (13)

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

Total: 163

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Considering he wants to adjust Supernatural up in cost 150%, it's probably just an overreaction. Especially since this idea of learning a ship's dial, then using superior agility to capitalize on the information isn't something new with the release of FO/Resistance.

I think people got the idea that ships taking multiple actions during a turn was going to be rare and generally not worth it, and for the most part it is. But there will always be list builders who can start with a concept and come up with a fine list that executes that concept well, and pilots that can fly that squad to its fullest ability, to the point of it not seeming fair or balanced.

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I think you will never get the 100% balanced game. It is impossible. Take a look a some pc games or other miniature games where each „balancing patch“ brings new unbalanced combos. Having so many ships/abilities/upgrades to consider when it comes to point adjustments/changes is really difficult.

This brings me to playtesting. Of course ffg is doing playtesting. A lot of playtesting I guess. But the fact is that in a couple of  weeks the community is playing way more games that the ffgs playtesters did. Like in any other game the community encounters problems/balancing issues way faster than the developers.

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