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Togashi Monk Discussion

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sloppy and glitchy sound right. I'd agree but it seems so grown up since I ran a 1E campaign decades ago! 

I agree the water/air monks wont be as powerful but would be fun.  The water ignoring armor and walking on water and teleporting seems pretty fun.

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29 minutes ago, jayhad69 said:

sloppy and glitchy sound right. I'd agree but it seems so grown up since I ran a 1E campaign decades ago! 

I agree the water/air monks wont be as powerful but would be fun.  The water ignoring armor and walking on water and teleporting seems pretty fun.

fun for sure, your starting rings and kiho just don't help you for it so you can make it happen, but later.

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On 1/7/2019 at 4:19 PM, jayhad69 said:

Thanks. I did find that Water (or Air) is fact doable at Rank 3. The rules on page 56 say you can choose any school in your Clan [During this step, a player chooses a single school within their clan for their character.], so could choose Mirumoto (for Water +1) or Kitsuki (for Air +1) to get 3 Ranks to start, ! It makes sense that the character was born in another house of the Clan but joined the Togashi Order for whatever reason.  This makes starting Air or Water monks good. 

If you mean family, you are correct. That said, the Togashi are a bit strange as a school, in that they are all from the same family. So RAW, you can no problem be from another family, and join the Togashi monk school, but lore-wise, a GM should require you to justify that (with the most obvious being that you joined the Togashi much later in life than normal, probably after time in school or even working as full samurai of that other family). Just keep that little nuance of the school in mind (the Utaku school has a similar thing, in that only women of the Unicorn clan, and mainly the Utaku family, would have justification to attend).

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I'd say that, if you consider the family bonuses either as "early childhood training and education" or as "family predispositions", and depending how young you expect people to join the order, having some other family's bonuses and joining late childhood to early teenage in time to get "school" education, doesn't seem far-fetched. Of course, as soon as you join, you lose the family name and take Togashi. Children born from Togashi parents, of unknown parentage or of non-samurai parents (if such things exist; the description on page 51 seem to imply they are all possible) can still use the Togashi "family" bonuses.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 10:46 AM, Keima87 said:

Then i seriously don´t understand why people consider monks so powerful.

- On each turn, you EITHER you activate a kiho or attack, you can´t do both.
- Most kihos have persistent effects that only make sense if you activate the kiho in your first turn and then don´t use any other kiho during the combat.
- If you try to circle through burst effects activating a different kiho on each turn, the damage you deal it´s neglectable and you´ll be terribly exposed to damage from enemies (monks wear no armor, defensive kihos deal almost no damage).
- And apart from all that, the school ability let´s you take advantage of just a couple of kihos, but if you chose them, they don´t count for your school progression.

It´s like the whole idea for the character (which seems powerfull at first sight) went out of the window when they took it down to the mechanics.

Either that, or i´m missing something.

Canonically in prior editions, the Togashi family is all by adoption; they get their togashi blood in their tats, not by birth. Usually.

4 minutes ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

I'd say that, if you consider the family bonuses either as "early childhood training and education" or as "family predispositions", and depending how young you expect people to join the order, having some other family's bonuses and joining late childhood to early teenage in time to get "school" education, doesn't seem far-fetched. Of course, as soon as you join, you lose the family name and take Togashi. Children born from Togashi parents, of unknown parentage or of non-samurai parents (if such things exist; the description on page 51 seem to imply they are all possible) can still use the Togashi "family" bonuses.

Prior editions, if you got adopted, your bonuses changed to the new family's. this did change stats. (ISTR the rule being in a 1E or 2E supplement.)

Edited by AK_Aramis

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17 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

If you mean family, you are correct. That said, the Togashi are a bit strange as a school, in that they are all from the same family. So RAW, you can no problem be from another family, and join the Togashi monk school, but lore-wise, a GM should require you to justify that (with the most obvious being that you joined the Togashi much later in life than normal, probably after time in school or even working as full samurai of that other family). Just keep that little nuance of the school in mind (the Utaku school has a similar thing, in that only women of the Unicorn clan, and mainly the Utaku family, would have justification to attend).

Becoming a tattooed monk is a calling. This calling happening just before or after your gempukku is pretty plausible. There's a Heroes of Rokugan module about a Lion girl running away to become a Kikage Zumi a few months before her gempukku, for instance. That should be plenty to explain the family bonuses not being based on the Togashi order.

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16 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Prior editions, if you got adopted, your bonuses changed to the new family's. this did change stats. (ISTR the rule being in a 1E or 2E supplement.)

Kind of odd, unless the adoption happens at a very young age. You get "adopted" if you marry into another family as an adult as well, after all.

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There are two kinds of Monks in Rokugan. Those who joins the Order as a child and spends their childhood in training and then live their life as a Monk. The other kind of Monk is an adult Samurai in retirement and for them there is the Monastic Acolyte title from the Emerald Empire book.

Unlike D&D "Dual-Classing" is frowned upon in Rokugani society.

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19 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Kind of odd, unless the adoption happens at a very young age. You get "adopted" if you marry into another family as an adult as well, after all.

it's a supernatural thing. Minor clans without a family name got no attribute bonus.

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9 hours ago, Alisair Longreach said:

There are two kinds of Monks in Rokugan. Those who joins the Order as a child and spends their childhood in training and then live their life as a Monk. The other kind of Monk is an adult Samurai in retirement and for them there is the Monastic Acolyte title from the Emerald Empire book.

Unlike D&D "Dual-Classing" is frowned upon in Rokugani society.

This isn't accurate. Samurai can decide to join a monastery, and particularly the Togashi brotherhood, at any point in time. Retirement is when they are expected to do so, and childhood is a method of palming off orphans/extra children/fulfilling obligations, but there's nothing stopping Bayushi Bob (for example) joining the Brotherhood because he's 25, a trained shinobi, and tired of killing people in the name of his clan, feeling that his spirit may well be sullied by his worldly life, and decide to become a monk. A good 'ole tale was also the pair of young lovers, separated due to any of the classic reasons, when one dies, and the other joins a monastery, forsaking worldly attachments, becoming a monk/nun, out of sadness/loyalty. The Togashi in particular are called out as having members from all over, many of whom are samurai, who were driven by feelings they don't understand to seek out their own path to the Order.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 5:53 PM, nameless ronin said:

Becoming a tattooed monk is a calling. This calling happening just before or after your gempukku is pretty plausible. There's a Heroes of Rokugan module about a Lion girl running away to become a Kikage Zumi a few months before her gempukku, for instance. That should be plenty to explain the family bonuses not being based on the Togashi order.

Oh, 100% agreed, you just need that story.

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4 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

This isn't accurate. Samurai can decide to join a monastery, and particularly the Togashi brotherhood, at any point in time. Retirement is when they are expected to do so, and childhood is a method of palming off orphans/extra children/fulfilling obligations, but there's nothing stopping Bayushi Bob (for example) joining the Brotherhood because he's 25, a trained shinobi, and tired of killing people in the name of his clan, feeling that his spirit may well be sullied by his worldly life, and decide to become a monk. A good 'ole tale was also the pair of young lovers, separated due to any of the classic reasons, when one dies, and the other joins a monastery, forsaking worldly attachments, becoming a monk/nun, out of sadness/loyalty. The Togashi in particular are called out as having members from all over, many of whom are samurai, who were driven by feelings they don't understand to seek out their own path to the Order.

From my point of view Bayushi Bob and young lover are retiring.  They are moving on from their working life to one of contemplation, it's just that they are doing it earlier than most people.  We have something similar these days - it gets called early retirement

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13 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

it's a supernatural thing. Minor clans without a family name got no attribute bonus.

Still odd (and I unfortunately don't see what point that second sentence is supposed to make - which minor clans did not have a family name?)

An adopted infant is treated the same as an adoptec child getting ready for gempuku, as an adopted young samurai who mastered just the basics from his original school and as an experienced one who might have been teaching techniques from his former school to younger students - all of a sudden his traits or rings, depending on edition, switch around regardless of whether the new stats even match his skills and training.  

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6 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Still odd (and I unfortunately don't see what point that second sentence is supposed to make - which minor clans did not have a family name?)

An adopted infant is treated the same as an adoptec child getting ready for gempuku, as an adopted young samurai who mastered just the basics from his original school and as an experienced one who might have been teaching techniques from his former school to younger students - all of a sudden his traits or rings, depending on edition, switch around regardless of whether the new stats even match his skills and training.  

Several of the minor clans had no family name. And one family had no clan.

By the way, the reference for no attribute bonus without a family name is in Way of the Minor Clans (1e), p 17, sidebar.

  • Minors without family names in Old L5R:
    • Mantis (Still don't in 5E. But they do get attribute bonuses in 5e)
    • Falcon
    • Tortoise (I cannot get to my GM screen at the moment to check for a family name in 5E)
    • Wasp
    • Snake: Chuda. The emperor withdrew their name when they were destroyed.
  • Minors with family names in Old L5R:
    • Fox: Kitsune
    • Dragonfly: Tonbo
    • Sparrow: Suzume
    • Badger: Ichiro (nb: means first son...)
    • Centipede: Moshi
    • Boar: Heichi
    • Hare: Usagi
  • Families without clans
    • Yotsu. They are not in fealty to the emperor, but are allowed their name and to be hired by any clan.

We are seeing a different approach in 5e, at least for the mantis.

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2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Tortoise (I cannot get to my GM screen at the moment to check for a family name in 5E)

They do get their Kasuga family name in 5e.

The minor clans without family names was a transient situation even within the previous editions. This was long gone by the 4th (but then again, way too many had been absorbed in major clans). Later in the timeline, other clans even appeared, complete with their families (Monkey clan, with the Toku and Fukaze families), and some of the existing minor clans got additional families too (Ujina for the Hare...).

But back to the adopted Togashi, I'd say roll with it and do your thing: as long as you end character creation with 10 ring ranks in total, and you have a good story to tell, I don't think much can go wrong.

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11 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Several of the minor clans had no family name. And one family had no clan.

By the way, the reference for no attribute bonus without a family name is in Way of the Minor Clans (1e), p 17, sidebar.

  • Minors without family names in Old L5R:
    • Mantis (Still don't in 5E. But they do get attribute bonuses in 5e)
    • Falcon
    • Tortoise (I cannot get to my GM screen at the moment to check for a family name in 5E)
    • Wasp
    • Snake: Chuda. The emperor withdrew their name when they were destroyed.
  • Minors with family names in Old L5R:
    • Fox: Kitsune
    • Dragonfly: Tonbo
    • Sparrow: Suzume
    • Badger: Ichiro (nb: means first son...)
    • Centipede: Moshi
    • Boar: Heichi
    • Hare: Usagi
  • Families without clans
    • Yotsu. They are not in fealty to the emperor, but are allowed their name and to be hired by any clan.

We are seeing a different approach in 5e, at least for the mantis.

Borrowed a copy to look it up. That just looks like mechanical rules legalese though. I don't see anything being suggested about family bonuses being supernatural, it's left entirely unexplained. I don't for instance recall ronin losing their family bonuses in 2E either (though my stint with that edition was exceedingly brief).

Edit: found a reference in Way of the Wolf indicating it's an ancestral benefit.

Edited by nameless ronin

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