# For those who are not excited for hyperspace(imperial players? Rebel players? “Variety” players?) can ffg change your mind?

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7 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Actually no.

t = 1 😂😂😂

so 14=14...

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Because it is inherently simpler to balance fewer components I guess?

They also get way less time for each Hyperspace pool though. With Extended they can do an iterative approach: collect data, change something, see the effect of the change, rinse and repeat.

In Hyperspace they need to get it right the first time, every time. If they mess up a pool, by the time they have collected some meaningful data and decided on a correction, a significant chunk of that Hyperspace season will have gone by.

IMO, it takes at least as much skill to constantly produce balanced Hyperspace ship pools as to balance Extended.

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15 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

so 14=14...

Precisely.  There's a difference between balancing and solving.

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19 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

so 14=14...

no that's not how the actual equation breaks down. If you would like I could give you a complete breakdown of the solution no where in it is 14 applied.

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They also get way less time for each Hyperspace pool though. With Extended they can do an iterative approach: collect data, change something, see the effect of the change, rinse and repeat.

In Hyperspace they need to get it right the first time, every time. If they mess up a pool, by the time they have collected some meaningful data and decided on a correction, a significant chunk of that Hyperspace season will have gone by.

IMO, it takes at least as much skill to constantly produce balanced Hyperspace ship pools as to balance Extended.

That assumes a lot about how both hyperspace and the biannualy/quarterly balancing (whichever it is) work.

I don‘t know. One option is that it happens as you described. But as far as I‘m aware we still don‘t know for how long hyperspace will increase in number of ships. One option is that all new ships of 2019+2020 (to give an example, we don‘t know!) will be hyperspace legal. In that case, both extended and hyperspace would need to incorporate them in a well balanced fashion. That is inherently simpler for hyperspace.

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On 1/1/2019 at 12:03 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Do you want to balance this equation:

This game looks far more interesting and complicated.  For people who want a interesting tournament environment, this is the game for them.  For people who want to see a wide variety of Star Wars ships in the table, this is the game for them.  For all the FLGS that want to move their old 1.0 product, this is the game for them.

On 1/1/2019 at 12:03 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Or this one:

I find it humorous that you’ve chosen an equation that solves to t=1, since that’s pretty much what the current Hyperspace meta is going to do anyway.  Each faction plays their best list, and of the best faction lists one of them is probably better than the rest.

In my experience, even at big events, people bring “non-competitive” lists, themed lists, and “Sooper-Seekrit-New-Hotness” lists.  Additionally, the latest stats of top 16 players won’t change that.  Innovation and getting ahead of the meta are part of any tournament game, and will never go away.  When it’s being done in such a shallow pool of options, innovation stagnates.  If Hyperspace continues as 4 ships per faction, it will only be revolving cycle of Rock, Paper, Scissors with different ships.

The craziest thing about all of this, the best players are going to win regardless of what format.  It changes nothing for a new players chances for winning a major tournament.  Strange isn’t it, that player skill matters the most?

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On 1/1/2019 at 7:39 AM, ForceM said:

Extended will suffer from this MTG copy paste dumpster of odd rotations that Hyperspace will be, and that’s why they won’t change my mind on it while going this road with it.

WHAT they could do to make me happy with Hyperspace, is NOT DO ROTATIONS OR BANLISTS, but make it a true introductory format that ends when all old ships have been rereleased so that in the end Hyperspace=Extended. While this process is going on, they’d probably need different point costs for ships in both formats until they all get united in the end.

I get Hyperspace from the standpoint that you have to make a format for new players (even if there are hardly any as far as i csn observe in my vicinity) so that they can have access to all the played ships. At the moment you can still easily get all old expansions for cheap and just play with conversion kits. But there might be a timr when this is not possible anymore. So therefore Hyperspace is necessary AS A STOPGAP MEASURE.

To be clear, i have already started cutting my expemses on X-Wing as soon as i started to see this coming, some of my coplayers start wandering off already from X-Wing because of this mess, and if they start ruining Extended because of Hyperspace balance, i will be done with this too.

This. So much this.

It seems to me that Hyperspace is just going to be the new normal for xwing, and they are abandoning any chance of balancing all content because who cares, just ban half the latest wombo-combo this season, etc.

I too have begun reallocating my funds. I am going with the business of “I will convert my old ships to extended format so I can play them all together, but I have no desire to buy in net new en made”. I will skip the prequel factions at present. I may or may not pick up a new ship for my existing fleets. The only sure thing I’d buy is a huge ship conversion kit, but at this rate I don’t think it will ever come because they’re so focused on Hyperspace only.

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3 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

no that's not how the actual equation breaks down. If you would like I could give you a complete breakdown of the solution no where in it is 14 applied.

16-2t=5t+9 (Add 2t to both sides)

16=7t+9 (Subtract 9 from both sides)

7=7t (Divide by 7)

1=t (Now lets plug (t) into the original equation)

16-(2*1)=(5*1)+9 (the Parenthesis are there just to focus on proper order of operation. 16-2*1=5*1+9 is the same equation)

16-2=5+9 (obvious how to work this part out)

14=14 ( You were saying???)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Precisely.  There's a difference between balancing and solving.

*sigh*

It's true.  All of it.

I'll just have to hope my meaning is not lost despite my poor choice of graphics.

1 hour ago, Phelan Boots said:

This game looks far more interesting and complicated.  For people who want a interesting tournament environment, this is the game for them.  For people who want to see a wide variety of Star Wars ships in the table, this is the game for them.  For all the FLGS that want to move their old 1.0 product, this is the game for them.

I agree with all of that except for the  2nd bit.  For people who want an interesting competition, an over-wrought fuzzball is not the best option.

They also get way less time for each Hyperspace pool though. With Extended they can do an iterative approach: collect data, change something, see the effect of the change, rinse and repeat.

They did that for 1.0.  It failed.

Quote

In Hyperspace they need to get it right the first time, every time. If they mess up a pool, by the time they have collected some meaningful data and decided on a correction, a significant chunk of that Hyperspace season will have gone by.

If Hyperspace = Extended eventually, now they have to do the exact same thing is 50x moving parts, so, no. . .

Quote

it takes at least as much skill to constantly produce balanced Hyperspace ship pools as to balance Extended.

. . .it will take a lot more skill to keep Extended balanced.

*****

If DM were in charge of Hyperspace, it would look something like this:

Each faction gets +/- 7 ships.

4 ships are Core Identity ships and would (almost) never rotate out.  This allows players to buy these few ships and play "forever," and keep the game Star Warsy thru the years.

Of the other 3 ships,

1 would be replaced by a new release, when available.  Each faction would see at least 1 new ship per year.

1 or 2 others (an under-preformed or an over-performer) would be replaced by an extant ship from the Extended pool of ships.

Maybe, from time to time, a ship would be replaced based on theme if the game ever got to the point of having a pseudo-narrative.

Now, playtesting involves a pool of 49 ships, 28 of which are tried-and-true.  7-14 are "knowns" that tweak the meta.  Nonetheless, all of these ships are going to need to be playtested vs. new upgrade options.  Only 7 ships per year are complete unknowns, requiring the heaviest playtesting.

Extended is monitored but not playtested.  Egregious problems are culled, or at the very least never reintroduced to Hyperspace.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'll just have to hope my meaning is not lost despite my poor choice of graphics.

The choice of graphics got the point accross, it was perfectly fine.

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12 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

*sigh*

It's true.  All of it.

I'll just have to hope my meaning is not lost despite my poor choice of graphics.

lol, no worries.  I think your meaning was perfectly clear; I just have a tendency to be somewhat pedantic at times.

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10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

They did that for 1.0.  It failed.

Superficially, yes. But 1.0 didn’t have the tools available to 2.0. Nor the actual scheduled times for rebalancing. What 1.0 was doing was using desperate measures to fix unforeseen problems. What 2.0 should be doing is using built in tools to fix problems tha experience has taught should be expected.

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I like hyperspace because it is more toned down and more about flying. I can just sit down and play. Not worry about crazy combos.  Currently playing a hyperspace tournament against my friend. We have made 3-4 competive in each faction (no repeating pilots).  Only imperial is having issues with diversity it’s vader and a mini swarm, iden swarm or some other swarm.  Bottom line it’s fun

I find sometimes u want a break from extended

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I assume you have a source for this and actual numbers, not just your extremely biased gut feeling?

So... a version that would be identical to what we have now? Because you can't give the game time until all factions are released before you have to bemoan what is only a possibility of your imagination?

I see what’s going on in our local gaming club and LGS where most of the games take place. In our club, approx a quarter of the people say that they don’t like Hyperspace and won’t do training games for it. Most of them are really competitive players that have attended systems opens, regionals and so on. Nearly 3/4 of our players have cut expenses on X-Wing significantly. Some started this with 2.0, the rest because of Hyperspace being announced.

In the LGS, regular tournaments are at an all time low (at the end of 1.0 we had approx 10-12 players, last time we had 8 for Extended), but the one that was tested in Hyperspace format cound not even reach the 6 required players and didn’t take place. (And i was actually one of the 3 that made an inscription, despite of what i said here, well, so much for „giving it a chance“...)

I’ll admit that it’s not a significant sample size, but no, it’s not a mere gut feeling either. What i read from people here in the forum seems to support pretty much what i see in my area. There are some that want to play, and fully accept Hyperspace. But it’s still a significant part that does not agree, and we will in time see the consequences.

If there is something i have learned from my long TT gamer career, it is that you can’t force something upon your playerbase.

Look at Age if Sigmar as it was initially planned, with no point costs, so you could just put anything you want on the table etc.

Or power levels to replace point costs in 40k to cite another GW example.

AOS was only barely saved because they backpedaled A LOT and listened to their community. Power levels for their part are just widely ignored.

Concerning the future of Hyperspace, i have asked multiple times in this forum if this will be a rotational format or if it’s a stopgap until everything is released. The answer was the same everytime. It’s here to stay and will be a sort of rotational game.

That is what i don’t like about it because of the aforementioned bad consequences. If Hyperspace was just going to stay a few years until all was rereleased, i would be pretty fine with it. So i am willing to give them the time, but that is not what they are going to do.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That assumes a lot about how both hyperspace and the biannualy/quarterly balancing (whichever it is) work.

I don‘t know. One option is that it happens as you described. But as far as I‘m aware we still don‘t know for how long hyperspace will increase in number of ships. One option is that all new ships of 2019+2020 (to give an example, we don‘t know!) will be hyperspace legal. In that case, both extended and hyperspace would need to incorporate them in a well balanced fashion. That is inherently simpler for hyperspace.

Yeah, and Extended will be either ignored, or they need to make the double effort to get both balanced correctly and independently from each other. Which is much more difficult, making failure more likely.

Both cases are just unacceptable!

Edited by ForceM

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43 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Superficially, yes. But 1.0 didn’t have the tools available to 2.0. Nor the actual scheduled times for rebalancing. What 1.0 was doing was using desperate measures to fix unforeseen problems. What 2.0 should be doing is using built in tools to fix problems tha experience has taught should be expected.

Regardless of the toolkit, fixing a table fan (limited) will always be easier than fixing a turbofan (extended).

13 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Concerning the future of Hyperspace, i have asked multiple times in this forum if this will be a rotational format or if it’s a stopgap until everything is released. The answer was the same everytime. It’s here to stay and will be a sort of rotational game.

Unless you have seen a post from FFG I'm not aware of, bear in mind this is all wild-*** speculation.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Yeah, and Extended will be either ignored, or they need to make the double effort to get both balanced correctly and independently from each other. Which is much more difficult, making failure more likely.

Both cases are just unacceptable!

You can do both, but you would be better off balancing for Extended. Case in point ... Warmahordes, the Community Integrated Development cycles, and Champions / the Active Duty Roster for Organized Play.

The CID cycles are used to continuously balance factions and keep old stuff relevant with new stuff, and is done by looking at the game as a whole. This would be like keeping Extended balanced with new releases.

The ADR is a type of OP format that users a limited pool of warcasters and themes for each faction to reduce what can be played, and change up the competitive tournament meta. This would be similar to a Hyperspace rotation.

Privateer Press has been successful with this method and it could work with X-Wing. But the thing to remember is Extended is where the game would be balanced

32 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Regardless of the toolkit, fixing a table fan (limited) will always be easier than fixing a turbofan (extended).

Unless you have seen a post from FFG I'm not aware of, bear in mind this is all wild-*** speculation.

If we only did easy stuff, we would have never gotten to the Moon.

Of course, I wouldn't trust FFG to do anything other than the easy option due to their shown capabilities, not because it was the best idea to do.

Edited by kris40k

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Regardless of the toolkit, fixing a table fan (limited) will always be easier than fixing a turbofan (extended).

Easier. But that doesn’t mean the turbofan shouldn’t be fixed. People still use and rely on the turbofan. Simply telling people that the other fan exists, therefore they shouldn’t worry about the turbofan doesn’t solve a problem, as you should well know. You have been an advocate for thematic and Epic play since i’ve known about you. The logic you are using now is the kind used against those play styles. “Too difficult to properly support Epic”, “That many thematic pilots will make the game more complicated, thus harder to balance” and so on.

To sum up, just because something is easier doesn’t mean it’s the right course of action. It’s often the harder path that is the more rewarding.

Edited by SabineKey

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22 minutes ago, kris40k said:

If we only did easy stuff, we would have never gotten to the Moon.

You know that was a hoax, right?

21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Easier. But that doesn’t mean the turbofan shouldn’t be fixed. People still use and rely on the turbofan. Simply telling people that the other fan exists, therefore they shouldn’t about the turbofan doesn’t solve a problem, as you should well know. You have been an advocate for thematic and Epic play since i’ve known about you. The logic you are using now is the kind used against those play styles. “Too difficult to properly support Epic”, “That many thematic pilots will make the game more complicated, thus harder to balance” and so on.

To sum up, just because something is easier doesn’t mean it’s the right course of action. It’s often the harder path that is the more rewarding.

100% agree.

But. . .

As you just pointed out, this sort of thing is exactly my personal experience in XWM:  the "needs" of the tournament scene eclipse anything I would want the game to be.

If FFG prunes the game down to Hyperspace-eligible vs. Extended, and that is a bitter pill to swallow because you expected something else when you bought this game, well, some of us have been taking that medicine for awhile now in terms of where we want the game to go and what FFG focuses on.

And before you all start calling me bad names again, let me clarify that I don't wish for anyone's game to fall apart, and maybe they won't dumb Hyperspace down like we are talking about.  But if they do, my personal experiences in the development drive of this game is:

Tournament Player's Season first.

Other Player's Personal Wishes second.  Epic has been the poor second cousin for a long time.  It could be that Extended will need some room on that bench.

Hyperspace will be whatever FFG deems is best for FFG's vision of the game in Official Play.  That vision may or may not reflect the toys in your collection.

I just looked at the list TVboy posted about what's in and what's out.  What's out is a pretty long list, so I'm thinking Hyperspace is heading into a Limited Format game.

Personally, I do think Limited + Rotation is a smart idea.  I think it offers a real chance at balance that IMHO will never be manifest in the all-inclusive game.  Rotation can offer some drama that doesn't involve adjusting points.  OTOH, my cookie crumbled awhile ago, so I've got nothing riding on the outcome.

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Interesting thread to be sure, good or bad math aside (I got some laughs there, haha, thanks)

..but let's be brutally honest here, the hyperspace format is obviously FFGs way to weasel out of putting in the time needed to actually balance the game. Honestly, it's a cheap shot; a short-term fix; a band-aid.

They want to keep making money right? As my granddad would say, it's time to fish or cut bait.

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19 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

They want to keep making money right? As my granddad would say, it's time to fish or cut bait.

What about those of us who play miniatures games specifically because we don't want any part of angling?

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

100% agree.

But. . .

I’m going to be honest, i’m having a really hard time believing i’m actually taking to Darth Meanie. Are you feeling alright? Have you hit your head? Blink in Morse Code if aliens are controlling your mind. 😜

Jokes aside, I am still rather taken aback by your change of tune. While I could have issues with how you expressed your preferences of play, I always respected what you wanted out of the game. Seeing you talk like this feels like a defeat.

While I agree that Hyperspace does bring opportunities and ease with it, it is really hard to deny the counter points made by others. I’ll enjoy it as a side dish, but think it is a mistake to try to try to make it the main dish. Time will tell if I’m right or wrong.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

What about those of us who play miniatures games specifically because we don't want any part of angling?

How do you feel about poker?

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

How do you feel about poker?

Not a fan, honestly.  I love playing cards, but poker is all about playing people, which is far beyond me.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

Not a fan, honestly.  I love playing cards, but poker is all about playing people, which is far beyond me.

Hmm. Well there goes that metaphor.