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TheOz

For those who are not excited for hyperspace(imperial players? Rebel players? “Variety” players?) can ffg change your mind?

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10 hours ago, TheOz said:

I guess hyperspace is simpler?....it’s better! Powercreeping to get sales killed 1.0! We are so forgetful of the mess we just got out of!

they are a business and they need to be a successful business to continue to make the game we love...so of course they want us to buy their new releases. And we should buy new releases to support that( the best we can of course)

capitalism- love it or hate its what we got and that’s how it works

really the fact that they are making a new format for new releases Just for new players and a way to influence new purchases without power creep, along with the ability to change points and slots on ships...the designers are really looking to make this games competitive scene awesome!

Hyperspace is better? Maybe, maybe not. There are a bunch of potential pitfalls with this model as well, mainly centered around the fact that the guys who were somewhat able to balance 1.0 will now need to decide of balanced AND fun Hyperspace pools twice a year or so. 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's great they're trying something new, but I wouldn't call it better until they have proven it's better.

 

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4 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

hyperspace format will be a prime testing ground for points adjustments. makes me thinks they will target the falcon as an early project and make it a lil cheaper?

Or they could just turn it off.

On 12/29/2018 at 4:36 PM, Koing907 said:

Hyperspace is doomed.

It sure is creating a big fuss.

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I think if they opened it up to the rest of the ships and just called it X -Wing the miniatures game I could get on board for it.

I haven't seen any compelling points that make me think a format with only 2 or 3 power squads is better then a different format with only 2 or 3 power squads. With the main difference being 60 percent of our collections need to be stored in a closet for 2 to 3 years.

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On 12/29/2018 at 2:45 PM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

some theories... (just speculation)

FFG is using hyperspace as a testing ground for points adjustments.

Hyperspace will be used at national events in the top brackets (top16 or top8)

Hyperspace will allow a ship rotation which could unlock some not-yet-seen tournaments based on a story arc (coinciding with balancing of points announcement)

Hyperspace events might coincide with the release of new waves or expansion (hyperspace might be the first chance players get to use new ships).

I suspect this is likely to be the case.  FFG is going to focus on the "bullseye" of XWM, which will become known as Hyperspace.  One layer out from that will be Extended, which is monitored, but not really discussed much.  Really broken stuff might even get banned from Extended, because what looked good in Hyperspace had a bunch of unintended consequences in Extended.  One layer out from that might be true casual, where you can play with everything, because people can decide group-by-group how to deal with stuff that got the FFG Seal of Disapproval.

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42 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

I haven't seen any compelling points that make me think a format with only 2 or 3 power squads is better then a different format with only 2 or 3 power squads.

It is no difference in your eyes wheter these 2-3 power squads can be built with available ships or whether they have to be hunted down on the secondary market?

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It is no difference in your eyes wheter these 2-3 power squads can be built with available ships or whether they have to be hunted down on the secondary market?

With the cost of the 2.0 expacs, the main difference I see is that the money goes into the secondary market and not FFGs coffers :P:D

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4 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

With the cost of the 2.0 expacs, the main difference I see is that the money goes into the secondary market and not FFGs coffers :P:D

That makes a lot of difference for FFG though :) money into FFG's coffers helps the game grow. All other things equal I think most people should prefer the format that makes more money for FFG. 

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6 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

If it goes to the secondary market, all it means is that FFG already received their money, somebody paid the primary supplier FFG for the product to begin with.   

It also means that the money that FFG received from the original purchase is spent and the secondary market purchase isn't supporting FFG further. FFG needs to continue generating revenue to keep operating. If they don't the game will become secondary market only as FFG will abandon it for something that will make them money.

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All things being equal people should pick the format that they like, it is not our responsibility to make money for FFG, it is their responsibility to present  a product that appeals to the players and that the players will buy to fit their(the players) needs.  Thats how they make money.  If the players dont like the product why should they buy it.  Companies dont win by forcing products on consumers, the win by having a product the consumers want.

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3 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

They are not rare.

Plus...there aren't exactly hordes of new players wishing they could start x wing.

For how long though? Do you not remember how expensive Miranda got when she was dominating and sold out in the US? How people were buying from europe? Now again the supply is limited and will never be increased. What a great idea to make that the main organized play format of Xwing, great thinking!

There is always a flux, people joining and leaving. Extended as main format changes that flux for the worse.

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Not sure how you can say it changes the flux for the worst, it actually gives you more variety and choices to play, less chance of becoming stagnant.  With Hyperspace you have fewer choices to work with.  Aiso since many seem to worry about the sales potential, the extended  creates more ships for  a larger base to purchase from than the Hyperspace restricted base.

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7 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

Not sure how you can say it changes the flux for the worst, it actually gives you more variety and choices to play, less chance of becoming stagnant.  With Hyperspace you have fewer choices to work with.  Aiso since many seem to worry about the sales potential, the extended  creates more ships for  a larger base to purchase from than the Hyperspace restricted base.

You're looking at this from the angle of currently existing collections and Hyperspace not permitting a large chunk of those collections, @GreenDragoon is looking at this from the angle of most of the ships in currently existing collections are not being produced at this time and thus have a dwindling availability, especially those that have demonstrated themselves to be competitive in Extended. To attract more players and grow their customer base having a format limited to what is currently in print or has been released recently as an option is a good thing, just as having a format where people can play competitively with First Ed ships they've converted over is a good thing since it helps to retain the current customer base. Both formats are viable, Hyperspace is just weighted slightly more since it is most likely to attract new customers due to the lower monetary cost of entry and easier access to product when compared to Extended.

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43 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

Not sure how you can say it changes the flux for the worst, it actually gives you more variety and choices to play, less chance of becoming stagnant. 

Flux of players.

As in: the changes of players.

As in: players joinig and players quitting the game.

As in:

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

people joining and leaving.

 

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1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

All other things equal I think most people should prefer the format that makes more money for FFG. 

So, Epic?

For real though, I would rather people play Extended and support their FLGS by moving that older product off their shelf as well as getting the new 2E stuff, instead of leaving them stuck with 1E product and conversion kits they can't move which Hyperspace discourages buying it.

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1 hour ago, librarian101 said:

Not sure how you can say it changes the flux for the worst, it actually gives you more variety and choices to play, less chance of becoming stagnant.

Let me try again:

1) The playerbase is in constant flux. So far we agree.

2) Extended means new players have to buy and convert 1.0 ships if they want to play competitively and use the good squads. So far so uncontroversial.

3) The products of 1.0 are not produced anymore. No question there.

Connecting the dots and filling the blanks:

If FFG has any intention of running the game for any meaningful period of time, they will encounter more and more new, unhappy players who can not in any way get hold of 1.0 ships that are necessary to compete in extended because they are not produced anymore.

edit: and before I forget to state the obvious: unhappy players means fewer players

Edited by GreenDragoon

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All good points, but at the same time FFG can and probably will re-release the old ships as version  2 models as they already have with some.   So the middle road of re-releasing the V1 as V2 will help both bases in the long run, keeping current players happy and giving the new players new avenues to expand their collections.  

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33 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

All good points, but at the same time FFG can and probably will re-release the old ships as version  2 models as they already have with some.   So the middle road of re-releasing the V1 as V2 will help both bases in the long run, keeping current players happy and giving the new players new avenues to expand their collections.  

And do you, realistically, expect a gap between availability of secondary market 1.0 ships, and rereleased 2.0 ships? Do you think there could be regions where a gap is more or less likely? Do you think such a gap - if it were to occur - is harming the reputation of FFG? More or less than those complaining that there are two equally supported formats?

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1 hour ago, librarian101 said:

All good points, but at the same time FFG can and probably will re-release the old ships as version  2 models as they already have with some.   So the middle road of re-releasing the V1 as V2 will help both bases in the long run, keeping current players happy and giving the new players new avenues to expand their collections.  

Enzymatically, speaking, I think you are going to find porting 1.0 ships to 2.0 the Rate Limiting Step.

FFG needs to fill out 2 factions from the ground up, and grow 2 more that are babes in swaddling clothes.  That will take YEARS with the usual rate of Waves, and at least with Republic and CiS the material is lying about--no waiting for Episode Whatever to be made.

FFG's gotta think "Hmm.  Reprint the lame duck E-Wing, TIE Punisher and/or TIE Aggressor, or print a wave of new ships plus the Falcon we know is good?"  And I think New Ships are 100% the priority, with the exception of a few "core" ships that make the game Star Wars.  The game needs the TIE Interceptor to get converted; the TIE Aggressor, not so much.  The TIE Heavy or T-85 will make old players just as happy as new ones.

I think the 2.0-conversion process (as in, creating a new SKU) is going to take so long, that eventually some ships will be "forgotten" and exist as Extended-only forever.

Every day that goes by makes the "Hyperspace vs. Extended" discussion more moot: new players (and they had better be there) will not care about the dichotomy because they will be OK with Hyperspace, and porting 1.0 to 2.0 will "time out" thanks to new material from movies, cartoons, etc.

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On 12/29/2018 at 5:29 PM, Phelan Boots said:

A few people have used this argument now, and I’m still not buying it.  They could just “balance points really well!” For Extended instead.

Balancing for a larger selection is harder and takes more time, and also leads to odd cost because of edge cases that happen less frequently in a narrower format.

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10 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Balancing for a larger selection is harder and takes more time, and also leads to odd cost because of edge cases that happen less frequently in a narrower format.

First, it’s not so far off, as it is now.

Second, we should abandon all hope of a balanced game?  (Which was the whole point of 2.0 reset and variable costing via the app.)  In favor of what, X-Wing: A New Hope and All The Best Scum Stuff?  No thanks.  FFG made a commitment to the player base to balance the game, not 10% of the game.

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8 hours ago, kris40k said:

So, Epic?

For real though, I would rather people play Extended and support their FLGS by moving that older product off their shelf as well as getting the new 2E stuff, instead of leaving them stuck with 1E product and conversion kits they can't move which Hyperspace discourages buying it.

Epic doesn't really fall under 'all other things equal'. It was a terribly imbalanced mess and quite long as well. 

 

You make a very good point about stores then. Hyperspace is a pretty big issue to most FLGS. 

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