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For those who are not excited for hyperspace(imperial players? Rebel players? “Variety” players?) can ffg change your mind?

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I'm chiming in late, so I'm just gonna address the main topic. 

I made it no secret that I disliked the 2nd edition format, and when we saw what the Hyperspace format included, I was unhappy with it as well. I felt options were too limited, particularly for Rebels and Empire. The former because I felt that X-wings would continue to be their best option, and the later because their options are very limiting on squad choice unless you want to lose. 

My opinions have softened since my knee-jerk reaction. I still am not happy about the Rebels selection, but have hope that points adjustments will help them field things other than Wedge. I also think the Empire should have enough tools to function, they just will be sticking to one of maybe 3 archetypes. It's enough to start, and certainly better than 2nd ed format which I would've personally described as openly hostile to converting players. Hyperspace gave me a similar feeling at first, but that has subsided for me as I've stepped back and looked at the whole situation around the format, as well as it's possible future.

Looking ahead, there is some room for interesting things to happen in hyperspace, depending on how FFG handles it. I see it going one of two directions. It could eventually fill out to include everything and in essence become the extended format, something a lot of us assumed would happen to the 2nd ed format. The other, and I think my preference would be for Hyperspace to begin a rotation, keeping a couple "core" ships for each faction permanently legal (there has to be at least one ship that was released in 2nd ed for all the new players) while changing which ships are in rotation once or twice a year. This would be interesting to me, as I feel a limited format would be fun, provided the options get changed around every so often. I think a lot of my initial irritation was due to the fact that I simply wasn't able to play much extended at first, as my local community was trying to make things more inviting to newbies by playing just 2nd ed for awhile. That's admirable, but it burned me out hard on the ships that are in Hyperspace currently. 

Edited by Hippie Moosen

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2 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

-It assumes that new players exist in a vacuum, are incapable of using the internet, and most importantly, held back by their ship choices rather than their experience level. I'll just say it straight. I have not seen any new players held back by the "confusion" of conversion kits. They come to the meetup, we tell them how it works, they go "oh okay" and then they buy the extended ships that they want from one of the other players, ebay, or some combination of the two. New players around my part are rolling with B-Wings, Hwks, Sheathipedes, attack shuttles, punishers, interceptors, phantoms, etc. It's really a non issue that only exists in theory land. At every X-wing event I've been to, a player who doesn't have a component than they want to use will be able to borrow it, buy it off of someone, or just proxy the thing.

The thing is, it's a non-issue right now only because so much 1E product still exists, and because many older players are downsizing their collections.  Next year, when conversion kits and 1E ships are mostly gone, will it still be so easy for a new player to jump into Extended?

2 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

-It's blatant. How convenient that the only ships legal for hyperspace are those that have been re-released? (save for the falcon) Almost as if FFG wants players to buy the new expansions only and not go into the secondary market to plug their extended holes. A new player could have spent 60 on a few 1E ships and their conversion components through a variety of sources beforehand when extended format was the goal.

Or it's a recognition that 1E conversions will not always be so plentiful.  Should FFG start trying to get people used to this new format now, or should they wait until old product runs out and people start complaining for months on end about not being able to find the ship they want to fly in a tournament?

I know in Armada, the Imperial Light Cruiser was nigh impossible to find in most areas for a while.  Even online, the only place to find them was on Ebay for ridiculously marked-up prices.  Once supplies start running low, that's what's going to happen to X-Wing product.  If such product is what is required to compete, will rookies still feel so welcome?

Hence, Hyperspace focusing on product that has been released in 2E.

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our community is very competitive and we are embracing hyperspace and still playing extended. We have a tournament next weekend and the TO asked us our preference and most said hyperspace. We will play extended as well just to mess around and have fun. We are also a small group of 20ish core players. But we have had quite a few start popping up in the FB group and asking about coming out. It can be intimidating for newbies to come out for the first time with their Trenchrun and get wrecked by SoL or Sloan. So we are trying to make a healthy balance that is inviting to newbies and still competitive. Hyperspace does that.

Hyperspace is also NOT 2.0 only. example: Biohexacrypt is not in Hyperspace yet is a 2.0 card. There is no resistance or rebel falcon kit out there (yes, scum falcon, so you still technically have access to the model). Who knows, maybe in wave 4 or 5 or whatever you may have no large base ships and just be small base ships. Maybe no bombs. They originally said they can mix it up however they like just to distort the meta however they want. I think that's really cool. Most of the components for Hyperspace will be stuff thats already been reprinted for sure, but that doesn't make it any less fun.

TL/DR

Hyperspace: Grows your local community

Extended: Intimidates growth. 

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2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Hyperspace simplifies the task by imposing hard bans on certain ships and upgrades, bypassing the problem of unbalanced pilots and upgrades by excluding them from the available pool. But that has it's own problem, where players cannot field some (most) of the ships they have purchased. 

That'd be a good argument if Hyperspace actually looked like a thoughtfully crafted format. But at the moment it's just "2nd Edition, but we used a dartboard to ban a couple cards that aren't popular and add a couple that are."

AFAIK, no pilot bans except the U-Wing pilots from the conversion kit. No point costs changed from Extended.

Turrets and cannons are underrepresented, but you only get Ion Turret (why ban Dorsal? Kavil isn't even legal in the format) and HLC (arguably the 2nd worst behind Jamming Beam).

Proton Torps are the most popular and effective ordinance, but APT gets banned instead.

At least Barrage Rockets aren't legal. Too bad there's no ship in Hyperspace format that can field them.

I could go on about the crew and gunner slots, but tl;dr reinforces the idea they used a dartboard to define the format.

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I find this idea that Hyperspace format removes the entry barrier for new players a little weird.

As if a new player can pick up the core, a couple 2.0 expansions (the right ones obviously), then rock up to a system open and not just get blown away by a whole bunch of experienced players who fully understand the options and how to maximise them.

Alternately, the idea that a new player in Extended would absolutely have to go source some Punishers, Phantoms, HWKs from eBay to not just get blown away by a bunch of ex.... wait....

I see pretty much no difference between the 2. A new player is gonna have to shell out 100-150 of their chosen currency and learn a shitload about how to actually compete at the game to even make a start. The ships they have access to make zero difference to that.

At which point, they're probably shelling out another 100+ to buy another bunch of ships they actually want to learn with.

A new player is not about to fork out 200 monies, dive straight into a large scale, formatted event. They're gonna test the waters with a local group and get to know the game in a much freer setting. One where formats can be eased onto the backburner. Or, if their local group is all hey no way we're all hard ons for the meta because such and such open deal with it... they'll be hitting the biggest entry barrier there is.

Feels to me like all this stuff wrapped around Hyperspace is just window dressing.

Personally, I don't care. I just wanna play maximum X Wing with ships I like, of which there are many. I genuinely don't lose any enthusiasm on seeing what I'm up against. The only OP unbeatable things I've faced in 2.0 have been people, not ships, so format makes little difference to me. I popped my X Wing cherry in a friendly environment with lovely people who accepted whatever I brought. There's no better way.

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1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I find this idea that Hyperspace format removes the entry barrier for new players a little weird.

As if a new player can pick up the core, a couple 2.0 expansions (the right ones obviously), then rock up to a system open and not just get blown away by a whole bunch of experienced players who fully understand the options and how to maximise them.

And I find it weird that people seem to consistently think "new players" refers exclusively to newbies who don't know how to play, rather than referring to people who started in 2E, regardless of how skilled they end up becoming.

Yes, a newbie would have a little difficulty in winning a major tournament.  However, at some point that rookie will likely become a veteran player.  Since the 1E stuff and conversion kits appear to be a rather limited quantity, anyone who goes through this process after they're gone might face a bit of difficulty in Extended (especially since we don't know what future upgrades may enhance what current ships).  Limiting Hyperspace mainly to ships currently re-released will help minimize that and put everyone of similar playing ability on equal footing.

And it's not just about something being overpowered, either.  Say a year from now, someone has spent several months learning and getting better at the game.  However, there are no more conversion kits, and even 1E product is pretty hard to find for anything resembling a reasonable price.  If that person enters a tournament and struggles against a list consisting of numerous ships that the player can't possibly acquire, it'll leave a bad taste in their mouth regardless of whether those ships were actually more powerful than other ships available.  

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2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

And let's not mention the GW shills who come on to this very forum trying to turn people off the game...

I hope this is true, because it would be saturday morning cartoon villian levels of stupid from GW. :D

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16 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

And I find it weird that people seem to consistently think "new players" refers exclusively to newbies who don't know how to play, rather than referring to people who started in 2E, regardless of how skilled they end up becoming.

Yes, a newbie would have a little difficulty in winning a major tournament.  However, at some point that rookie will likely become a veteran player.  Since the 1E stuff and conversion kits appear to be a rather limited quantity, anyone who goes through this process after they're gone might face a bit of difficulty in Extended (especially since we don't know what future upgrades may enhance what current ships).  Limiting Hyperspace mainly to ships currently re-released will help minimize that and put everyone of similar playing ability on equal footing.

And it's not just about something being overpowered, either.  Say a year from now, someone has spent several months learning and getting better at the game.  However, there are no more conversion kits, and even 1E product is pretty hard to find for anything resembling a reasonable price.  If that person enters a tournament and struggles against a list consisting of numerous ships that the player can't possibly acquire, it'll leave a bad taste in their mouth regardless of whether those ships were actually more powerful than other ships available.  

A year from now we'll have three or four more new waves of ships and one or two points rebalancings under our belts, not to mention two entirely new factions which they can buy literally all of.

Not to mention that to the best of my knowledge there's not been any information published either way about whether the Conversion Kits will go out of print.

Whether they will balance well with Extended remains to be seen, but based on how well Poe is balanced, I'm pretty sure they'll be fine.

In short, in a year or so, 2e will be a much more complete game anyway, and a lot of the extended hype will have worn off simply because new shinies.

I know I'll probably end up playign Hyperspace legal lists by default, purely because I'm fully intending to buy into both CIS and Republic when they come out.

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14 hours ago, mcgreag said:

The only thing that would make me interested in Hyperspace is to make it an actual thought out limited format instead of a glorified second edition format. That means a ship/card selection that has nothing to do with if something has been released or not but instead on what will make an interesting and balanced meta.

This is what I would envision Hyperspace looking like when Hyperspace begins to look too much like Extended.

Until then, you can chat with an Epic player about what XWM Patience looks like.

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2 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

That'd be a good argument if Hyperspace actually looked like a thoughtfully crafted format. But at the moment it's just "2nd Edition, but we used a dartboard to ban a couple cards that aren't popular and add a couple that are."

AFAIK, no pilot bans except the U-Wing pilots from the conversion kit. No point costs changed from Extended.

Turrets and cannons are underrepresented, but you only get Ion Turret (why ban Dorsal? Kavil isn't even legal in the format) and HLC (arguably the 2nd worst behind Jamming Beam).

Proton Torps are the most popular and effective ordinance, but APT gets banned instead.

At least Barrage Rockets aren't legal. Too bad there's no ship in Hyperspace format that can field them.

I could go on about the crew and gunner slots, but tl;dr reinforces the idea they used a dartboard to define the format.

Hey, I didn't say it was a good format. Just that it hard bans the most notorious meta toppers right now.

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2 minutes ago, mcgreag said:

Boba Fett is not banned so it doesn't.

I knew someone would say that.

1. I don't think FFG could ban just the Boba card, and 

2. While Boba is powerful, I'm not seeing him dominate like Redline & Whisper+Vader.

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

Fett lost access to most of his toys and squad mates which were what was pushing him over the top.

That too. How is Boba doing in the Hyperspace format? Some joints must be running them/putting the matches on youtube.

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53 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

And I find it weird that people seem to consistently think "new players" refers exclusively to newbies who don't know how to play.

 

Fair point, humbly taken.

But I do find it unlikely that a player who has had time to understand the game and acquire a taste for certain components won't be able to either come by them, or do without them. Given that there will be so very much available by that point, only the most financially forthcoming of us will be able to support that level of completion. Turnover should keep the secondary market supported.

Another angle, say the limited Hyperspace meta becomes a swarm of something that isn't TIE Fighters. Financially, I'm just out and I've been slowly buying in for a year. 

Meanwhile in Extended, a range of whacky old 1.0 builds can even things up....

Format has nothing to do with those factors, meta does. Currently, people feel that Hyperspace suffers a lot less from meta constraints, but that's not necessarily forever and its still not really any different in terms of buy in.

Anyway, so much is just conjecture, I'm really just going for perspective. At this point, all the conversation about it comes under those 2 things, neither of which ever correlate to fact.

I can very much see the current allure of Hyperspace, even I'd rather carry on mostly using Echo and a Defender... 

Partly because I also only have 2 lists I can run in Hyperspace and only 1 I'd enjoy. Which is Firespray + 2 Fangs... I'd rather be able to run something that was just as good, but much, much less likely to turn up against me. I'm not a fan of mirror matches.

Emon and Skulls is my current thinking.

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2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

But I do find it unlikely that a player who has had time to understand the game and acquire a taste for certain components won't be able to either come by them, or do without them. Given that there will be so very much available by that point, only the most financially forthcoming of us will be able to support that level of completion. Turnover should keep the secondary market supported.

If you're taking that belief as a starting point, I can see your point.  Suffice to say I personally disagree with the premise, and think some ships will quickly be hard to find (and snatched up quickly when they do appear).  Time will tell which of us is correct or if there is a third option neither of us anticipated, I suppose.

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

If you're taking that belief as a starting point, I can see your point.  Suffice to say I personally disagree with the premise, and think some ships will quickly be hard to find (and snatched up quickly when they do appear).  Time will tell which of us is correct or if there is a third option neither of us anticipated, I suppose.

I can see that happening too. But I feel like it will be a limited and temporary thing. And at some point, there is only so much you can sell a tiny plastic ship for. You could get a Punisher for £20ish, if you really wanted and had a little patience. Come new points, it'll likely be less again. So take your bet on the new hotness and make a few quid in Feb :D

Case in point. I'd rather like to get hold of a Scum Han Gunner, but I refuse to pay £5 for it. Hopefully, it'll be more reasonably priced when it costs 14pts, and I can get it then.

And use it without feeling like I'm cheating.....

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2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

And use it without feeling like I'm cheating.....

The real reason I would never fly the current Boba build hotness. So many things at so few points. So many Scum lists I look out at and think ‘you got all those ships, fully kitted out, for under 200 points?’

it just feels… eww. 3 or 4 of their best ships and no compromises. 3 fully kitted out ships and a coordinate shuttle is just so good. I like the idea of many of the Scum ships, and even bought into the faction partly because my Imperial Firespray is no more. But so much is just so good for their points that it just doesn’t feel great to fly (personally). So much more control than any other faction too.

Part of it is I’m a bit contrarian. So if the meta says that Redline is clearly the best Punisher, I’m riding Deathrain. Only seeing Boba on the table? Let’s run Kath. Basically any time I see one ship so thoroughly dominated by a specific pilot or build, I either don’t run that ship, or run a different pilot.

It is both a strength and weakness. Rarely am I ever flying the ‘most efficient’ or ‘best’ ships, but I also tend to be flying something you haven’t seen then. I know what you can do, and how you want to do it. But can you say the same about me?

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18 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

no price change could possibly change my mind. I'm an Imperial player but i hate Tie Fighters, if the Tie Adv. had the Evade it should have like all other non bomber clsss Tie ships then maybe i could play in hyperspace but right now, not a chance.

Which, you know, with Debris Gambit? It’s fine. But losing Debris Gambit and the Lambda removes the two things that make the non Vader X-1 workable.

But losing those is a blow that really gimps them. Plus they really need to pay the Afterburner tax. So they get quite pricey for what they do.

In the proper squad, they can be great. But the tools they need just aren’t really on offer in Hyperspace.

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18 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Does he ever post anything anymore, or is he just in a constant state of confusion these days?

punching the confused reaction because you disagree with something is like hitting angry on Facebook on a post you don't like. There is no Dislikes on Facebook or these forums.

Well there is a dislike on Facebook but you have to click like first so it is a net 0.

Edited by Marinealver

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