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For those who are not excited for hyperspace(imperial players? Rebel players? “Variety” players?) can ffg change your mind?

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2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Many communities are small enough that they can’t keep up two formats and have enough people showing up. They’re lucky to have enough people for one format on a regular pace.

Not everyone gets the luxury of choosing both and going to whichever they like every single time they want to play.

But nobody is asking you to 'keep up two formats'.  Literally nobody.  They're going to run at different times.

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11 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

My question is: How many of you guys plan to play at Worlds?

Realistically, probably nobody here. It doesn't matter to us.

 

9 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But this post was about asking skeptics of the Hyperspace Format if they would ever become fans of the format, and if not, what did they have against it?

But practically speaking, it's generally not healthy for a game when events (casual and competitive) start to diverge into two different and incompatible formats, because that tends to divide an already precious commodity: the friendly local gaming scene.

 

See, this is why I am torn on the subject. On one hand, I don't give a poodoo what is going on at Worlds and for the most part Regionals. I'm not likely going to those. Local store events are pretty much my thing, although I almost went to a System Open when it happened in my metro area (didn't go because the cost also required buying a Con ticket + tourney entry fee). I do follow that info because what happens at these events shapes the game for everyone else; FFG does looks at how the game shakes down at the higher level when considering balancing actions which affect all. So, at the local level, if we want to play Extended, we play Extended.

On the other hand, I don't like the split formats because we do have some competitive players here at my local store that do go to Regionals, System Opens, and Worlds. I know that handful of the guys will get grumbly if they don't get to practice against Hyperspace lists to prepare for upcoming tournaments; I know that some players have previously changed what stores that they play at depending on the competitive vs casual atmosphere of the players there.  I think it will be ok, but I don't like the idea of breaking up the smaller group we have (typically 6-10 people on league night) into different formats. I am hopeful things will shake out ok.

Much like how paid DLC maps can fragment an online games community, splitting format of a game can cause damage to the community.

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's not going to last for long abyway.

FFG stated that they were pursuing an "incredibly aggressive re-release schedule" for 2nd edition, especially in the first year.

With the vast majority of pilots already printed for 2nd edition ships (via the conversion kits), it's not hard to imagine that by the end of 2019 we'll see most of the 1st edition ships "Hyperspace legal" anyway.

I think Wave 3 marks the end of that aggression 

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17 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I know that handful of the guys will get grumbly if they don't get to practice against Hyperspace lists to prepare for upcoming tournaments;

Regardless of the format, if someone is flying against my list to prepare for an upcoming tournament, that person should plan on losing that event.  Horribly.

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My issue is I see things being so heavily favored towards scum. Most of their strongest stuff comes over, and Imperials lose most of their tools to deal with that.

Really that’s where it breaks down for me. The lack of available tools to deal with various threats. Rebel protorp alpha has ways to play around it, but very few for Imps. And ultimately that’s my gripe. The top tier Rebel and Scum stuff is unchanged basically. Sure Scum loses Palob and 4-lom, but they’ve got lots of quality options.

If it gave me the Interceptor it would alleviate a large portion of my issue though. As others mentioned up thread, if it came out with the Battle of Endor ships and nothing else added? I would 100% be down for that. Gimme that Interceptor, Bomber, Lambda, A and B-wing. Now I’ve got the tools in a still limited format.

Honestly allowing bombers but banning barrage rockets would be hilarious, because so many people depend on it. Meanwhile I’ll be over here bombing things with my _bombers_.

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2 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Honestly allowing bombers but banning barrage rockets would be hilarious, because so many people depend on it. Meanwhile I’ll be over here bombing things with my _bombers_.

Barrage Bombers, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Strikers all start at 34 points, which is probably not a coincidence. What flavor would you like your 3 dice attack in?

4 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Really that’s where it breaks down for me. The lack of available tools to deal with various threats. Rebel protorp alpha has ways to play around it, but very few for Imps.

Here's to hoping Proton Torps get toned down in a week or two.

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38 minutes ago, SOTL said:

But nobody is asking you to 'keep up two formats'.  Literally nobody.  They're going to run at different times.

Are you intentionally being this dense?

Most people don’t get the luxury of getting to play two or more times a week, and if a player base is only small enough to support one event, breaking them in two won’t help that small community.

You keep assuming that everyone has the ability to go to multiple events in a week, and that game stores have a population of players such to allow multiple nights of gaming.

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1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

Are you intentionally being this dense?

Most people don’t get the luxury of getting to play two or more times a week, and if a player base is only small enough to support one event, breaking them in two won’t help that small community.

You keep assuming that everyone has the ability to go to multiple events in a week, and that game stores have a population of players such to allow multiple nights of gaming.

No, these events are happening in seasonal breaks through the year.  Jan will be extended, Feb-Mar will be Hyperspace, then likely Hyperspace goes away again until Sep-Oct for the second round of regionals.

There is NO decision to make.

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7 minutes ago, svelok said:

Barrage Bombers, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Strikers all start at 34 points, which is probably not a coincidence. What flavor would you like your 3 dice attack in?

Oh sure, it makes complete sense that this is the case. But for aesthetic reasons I play counter to that and use bombers for bombs rather than slow rolling jousters.

Mostly because I’ve never seen anyone else use bombs on the bombers locally, which makes me a little sad. So breaking down the standard loadout has an appeal to me.

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17 minutes ago, SOTL said:

No, these events are happening in seasonal breaks through the year.  Jan will be extended, Feb-Mar will be Hyperspace, then likely Hyperspace goes away again until Sep-Oct for the second round of regionals.

There is NO decision to make.

I'm pretty sure I'll be heading to a System Open in June (Bologna) where the sude event is Hyperspace. At least as far as major tournaments go, Hyperspace is never going away, because every System Open also has a Hyperspace event. 

1 hour ago, svelok said:

This is the thing that I don't get the most.

Right now, Extended is a **** show, as far as variety goes. Over half of Rebel lists contain Wedge. Similar numbers for Whisper and Boba.

But hyperspace has a lower power ceiling. The gap between tier one lists and tier two lists is smaller, which means the range of things that are viable is wider. If you show up with something random, like, 3x Firesprays in Extended, you'll get absolutely dumpstered by Whisper/Redline/Soontir. If you bring 3x Firesprays to Hyperspace, and match up against I dunno, like Boba/Fenn/Lando?... it feels like you have a fighting chance? You're playing from behind, but you probably win at least 2 or 3 games out of 10? More if you're the better player or your dice roll a little hot?

Point being, there's always gonna be tier 1 lists, but the size of the difference matters. A list that's 95% as good as the best list can be competitive, a list that's 55% as good probably can't. Hyperspace will have more of the former, because the average list hasn't changed but the best lists aren't as strong.

With a restricted ship pool however, the odds of one being able to successfully innovate and/or build a good anti-meta squad are much smaller. 

 

A 4 ship meta will be much easier to solve than a 15 ship meta, and that, understandably, upsets some list builders. 

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17 minutes ago, SOTL said:

It's a side event.  Jesus.  This is why I hate you guys, such fascists.  It's got to be your way 100% of the time or you'll throw your toys down and sulk like little children.

It's a Side Event that a significant majority of players will take part in. Unless you are one of the really top guys who can get 6-0 or 5-1 in the main event, your options for the second day are Hyperspace or nothing. 

 

Edit: to further clarify, my issue is that you seem to be trying to 'sell' system opens as Extended events when they are combined events. Apart from the winner and runner up of the main event, the only way for everybody else to not play Hyperspace is to drop after they are eliminated in the main event. 

Edited by LordBlades

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2 hours ago, SOTL said:

It's a side event.  Jesus.  This is why I hate you guys, such fascists.  It's got to be your way 100% of the time or you'll throw your toys down and sulk like little children.

You know the .gif you post is more a reflection of your personality and not others.

11 hours ago, SOTL said:

...

200.gif

You're just *****, and if Hyperspace does eventually take over and you all quit I will be glad to see you go. 

 

and since you are resorting into name calling pointing the finger and shouting literal Hitler (or president trump) you do remember what franchise we are talking about right?

giphy.gif

I guess that makes me a 1stOrder player, but I personally identify as a Scummy Villain ;)

Edited by Marinealver

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In the month before Second Edition released, I talked to every store I dropped in to play at, discussing the new formats and encouraging them to try out the 2E format instead of jumping straight to Extended. Maybe have the weekly leagues be 2E for a month, keep the weekend tournaments at Extended, or vice versa. Of the half dozen stores, only one had a launch event, and the first 2E format event happened two months after release, after two months of Extended tournaments and weekly leagues. 

I found it absolutely boring.

The problem with 2E and Hyperspace is that they don't feel like proper formats for competitive play, especially when compared to Extended. They feel more like an incentive to play FO and Resistance. Even though you have access to the same number of ships, you have access to everything in the faction, barring an upgrade or two, so you don't have this problem where you know what's good in Extended, and your list building in 2E/Hyperspace is just a subset of what you play in Extended, and that gets stale quickly.

What they could've done to make the format actually interesting is to do a complete point adjustment for only Hyperspace format. Surely a smaller pool of cards means it's easier to balance, there's no reason to keep point costs consistent between formats, and if their adjustment cycles were more fluid they could let the adjustments eventually trickle down into Extended. But they probably don't have the staff to do something like this; their focus now and forever will be developing new content that tends to be underpriced, and the community will more likely than not find any adjustments to existing content to be unsatisfactory, regardless of whether it actually is or isn't. I'm looking forward to generic CIS droid fighters costing 20 points or less, who's ready to shell out $200+ MSRP for a full swarm of them?

Also slightly unrelated, I really hope they add a bunch of official rules clarifications by mid-January at the latest.

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I've got a couple key issues with hyper space:

-The first and absolute biggest problem is that it will be an incredibly boring format to play. The most efficient builds will be found and then it's basically just going to be a question of playing one of those builds for the faction. Not to mention that Rebels lose all of their fun ships, as does Empire, while scum's top tier will be basically untouched. Scum will play Fenn because they would be wrong to not play it. As such, Rebels will have to play Wedge with Torps and Imperials will have to play Supernatural Vader to combat Fenn. Then there will be large bids all around and yay now we have an ace-wing format, but with less ace options. Mark my words, hyperspace tournaments will end up with the majority of top tables being mirror matches of whatever faction has the most efficient ace-wing list.

-It assumes that new players exist in a vacuum, are incapable of using the internet, and most importantly, held back by their ship choices rather than their experience level. I'll just say it straight. I have not seen any new players held back by the "confusion" of conversion kits. They come to the meetup, we tell them how it works, they go "oh okay" and then they buy the extended ships that they want from one of the other players, ebay, or some combination of the two. New players around my part are rolling with B-Wings, Hwks, Sheathipedes, attack shuttles, punishers, interceptors, phantoms, etc. It's really a non issue that only exists in theory land. At every X-wing event I've been to, a player who doesn't have a component than they want to use will be able to borrow it, buy it off of someone, or just proxy the thing. X-wing players are insanely accommodating to new players. At my play group, I could probably bring nothing and still be able to play any list I want just through borrowing. Once again, new players not having access to extended parts is a complete non-issue, fake news, theoryland, boogeyman, never going to be a problem; ever. 

-It's blatant. How convenient that the only ships legal for hyperspace are those that have been re-released? (save for the falcon) Almost as if FFG wants players to buy the new expansions only and not go into the secondary market to plug their extended holes. A new player could have spent 60 on a few 1E ships and their conversion components through a variety of sources beforehand when extended format was the goal. Now that same player will just buy all expansions because they have no incentive not to anymore and this is the "Santa isn't real" truth about hyerspace. It's just there to pick up the money ffg left on the table by accidentally making the conversion kit pieces easy to breakup and sell online, along with discounted 1e ships. I can't blame them, but I don't like this "for the new players" facade. Don't punch me in the back and call it a massage.

-It makes me just not want to go play X-Wing. In the end, despite all of people's fervent defense of hyperspace, what matters is really "is it a game experience that makes people want to play it?" I just ultimately would rather do other things with my free time than hunt down a supernatural vader or get ripped in half by a fenn rau. High ps aces aren't really that much fun to play against in my opinion, so I just have no desire to go to an event and put myself through something that I don't enjoy. Plus, I really will miss the ships that they took from me. I've been doing well lately with a luke norra jan jousting list lately (possibly one of the strongest rebel lists at the moment) and I'm just not attracted to a format where I will have to play a worse list for an arbitrary and inconsistent reason even though I was already doing everything I could to keep up with Scum and Empire as it was. You can tell us to just not play hyperspace, but we'll do just that and then there will just be less and less people showing up for x-wing. Keyforge is out, I enjoy it and it's much less cumbersome than X-wing. I would recommend for every Xwing player to a pick up a deck or two and try it out.  I might just switch over to that until FFG figures out what they want to do with this game. But for now, I just think that hyperspace is going to eventually kill the game, which is unfortunate because 2.0 has had so much promise.

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11 hours ago, svelok said:

How so?

If X-Wings were ten points each they'd break the game in half, but not because X-Wings do anything broken. They'd just do it too efficiently.

 

Think of it this way. Instead of one variable, we have two. Balance and price. It's important to seperate the two, because the X-Wing in your example would be "balanced" at one price point, and "unbalanced" at another price point only because of the point cost.  There's nothing intrinsic to the X-Wing as a ship that makes it unbalanced. Thus,the problem with your X-Wing example is actually a cost problem, and can be fixed with a point cost change.

If a pilot/set of pilots/upgrade/set of upgrades rises to the top of the meta, and chokes out other choices, that is a balance problem. 1.0's Nymranda, Fairship Rebels, Parattani, etc. They are not unbalanced because of their point cost, they are unbalanced because their set of abilities makes them superior to other choices. 
Trying to fix that kind of problem with a point cost fix requires pricing one or more of the pilots/upgrades out of the list. The abilities are still too effective,  but are now too expensive to field anymore. This is the equivalent of a soft ban. 

Hyperspace simplifies the task by imposing hard bans on certain ships and upgrades, bypassing the problem of unbalanced pilots and upgrades by excluding them from the available pool. But that has it's own problem, where players cannot field some (most) of the ships they have purchased. 


 

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1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

I'm pretty sure I'll be heading to a System Open in June (Bologna) where the sude event is Hyperspace. At least as far as major tournaments go, Hyperspace is never going away, because every System Open also has a Hyperspace event..

They're also running Hangar Bat pods, which can be Extended or Hyperspace.  So there'll be options for both formats on both days.

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8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

They're also running Hangar Bat pods, which can be Extended or Hyperspace.  So there'll be options for both formats on both days.

Are they though? Last year at Bologna I recall they did no Hangar Bay on day 2, not 100% sure though. 

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

It's a side event.  Jesus.  This is why I hate you guys, such fascists.  It's got to be your way 100% of the time or you'll throw your toys down and sulk like little children.

If you can't discuss a topic without throwing a tantrum, and insulting people, perhaps the problem is the person in the mirror...

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This talking is too much similar to the one at the end of the 5th edition of warhammer 40000. After three edition games workshop still has not recovered from the mistakes of tournament management done in those years. Xwing has taken a gut punch at the end of first edition here in italy for the tournament scene was impregnable by new players who avoided the game, letting merchandise dead on the shelves. Now in 2.0 things are moving slowly. Both shop owner and costumer are diffident and only the passion behind star wars brand move the purchase. A lot of grudge is coming against disney for discontinuing EU. A lot more to some strange aesthetic choices in the last films. People here love old classics. Love Vader, Han Solo, Boba Fett, the Empire. We are very sceptic and do not like to feel ourselves treated as cows to milk. We want products that will be valuable over the time and not discharged for marketing reasons. For those reasons huperspace here is tollerated barely as a forced choice from above to resent

Edited by CapitanGuinea

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I once dated a girl once that I first met in a large room, where there were a lot of people around. We had fun with all the activity and engagement around us and it was a great relationship, lots of variety.  

I once dated a girl once that I first met nearly alone, one on one, late at night when there were no other romantic options around but I didn't really care because I found her so interesting. Trust her implicitly to this day even though we're now just friends.

Both of them I met at the same party.

Edited by Cloaker

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1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

Are they though? Last year at Bologna I recall they did no Hangar Bay on day 2, not 100% sure though. 

Well, they're listed on the System Open site and on the ticketing page.  And FFG have announced prize support for Hangar Bay pods at the System Opens - prize tickets as for the rest of the event and a double sided spot gloss Resistance Bomber / TIE/sf alt art card for the winner.

Quote

Hangar Bay Pods

Hangar Bay Pods are casual, eight-player side events that organizers may schedule at various points throughout the System Open Series event.  At least one of these events will be scheduled alongside the System Open main event's Day 2 elimination rounds.

IIRC last year the System Opens did the "3 then 3" qualification on the first day - i.e. you had to win at least 2 of your first 3 games to qualify for 3 more rounds of Swiss.  Anyone who failed to qualify could then play Hangar Bay events on Day One.  This year it looks like there's just a straight 6 rounds of Swiss day one.

But, the Hangar Bay events are usually "Fire When Ready" anyway - as soon as there's 8 players ready to play, they start.

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57 minutes ago, CapitanGuinea said:

This talking is too much similar to the one at the end of the 5th edition of warhammer 40000. After three edition games workshop still has not recovered from thd mistskes of tournament management done in those years...

GW is really trying their hardest to copy the FFG formula these days  From their various "starter sets" and the re-emergence of small scale games like Blood Bowl and Necromunda right through to starting their own "Organised Play".  All this from a company that always claimed to be a "miniatures company, not a gaming company" and for a long time was quite content to let it's players to the majority of the leg work when it came to competitive play.

And let's not mention the GW shills who come on to this very forum trying to turn people off the game...

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8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

GW is really trying their hardest to copy the FFG formula these days 

Sidenote, have you seen Blackstone Fortress? Its basically WH40k's meets FFG's Descent, but for +50% the price, cause GW.

I was kinda interested in it but the maps/terrain is uninspiring, and the gameplay is very dicey, cause GW.

The models looks really cool, though.

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