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TheOz

For those who are not excited for hyperspace(imperial players? Rebel players? “Variety” players?) can ffg change your mind?

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So there are a lot of mixed opinions on hyperspace, I for one look forward to it but I understand the concerns of those who dont.

my question to you is if ffg gets the points right( I know big if) Will that create a little more enthusiasm. I mean a format where every chassis is potentially viable in some fashion and multiple archetypes for each faction? It would be far easier to achieve in a smaller pool like hyperspace

for example if these points changes happen I think even list building gets far more interesting

tie advanced-way down!

y wing-down

rebel falcon-we know that’s probably going down 

u wing-down?

reaper-down?

boba and all parts needed-up

escape craft-up

supernatural-up

Torpedoes-up

also a overall couple of point drop on the lowest initiative pilots

Not to mention dropping the price on some essential upgrades to certain ships

death troopers-down

krennic-down

perceptive co-pilot-down

ion turret-down

missiles-down

you get the jist, not to mentions in 6 months we get further balancing, two more factions, and possibly a chassis or two added to hyperspace, can ffg get it right for you?

basically if there is anything in the points adjustment or even further ship additions that will make you go ok this format might actually be cool? Or if your already onboard, what are you really hoping to see to keep you excited? 

Edited by TheOz

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Rebels need help.

Boba is priced about right but Marauder and Han gunner need to go up (i can see Han going to 8-10pts), Marauder is the best of the 3 Firespray titles but its the cheapest (3/5/6 for Maruader/Slave1/Andrasta should probably be reversed in cost with Marauder costing 6 and Andrasta costing 3)

Scum has some gr8 options right now, even in hyperspace with fangfighter, firespray, escape shuttle, Falcon and mining guild tie. All factions will eventually get more options as they rotate in different ships. None really knows how fast this will happen or if existing hyperspace ships will rotate out of the format but I expect the options to get greater over time for hyperspace for each faction.

Proton torps is a little cheap for what it does but not by much, maybe increase to 12pts max.

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Here's the real problem with Hyperspace: FFG has been a little flippant with the points, treating it like it's just dusting crops. Without precise calculations you could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end the game pretty quickly.

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I'd play in Hyperspace while the ships I like are available. The only reason I'm playing this game to begin with is because I noticed it had a miniature for an Expanded Universe ship that I had never seen merchandise of before. Access to my favorite ships is the reason I play, so that's the only way I can be convinced to play Hyperspace.

Edited by Jokubas

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46 minutes ago, TheOz said:

So there are a lot of mixed opinions on hyperspace, I for one look forward to it but I understand the concerns of those who dont.

my question to you is if ffg gets the points right( I know big if) Will that create a little more enthusiasm.

No. I've said many times here on the forums, I don't think changing points balances the game. It makes things more expensive, but they still do the same unbalanced thing.

Putting points in the app, instead of on the cards, just seems like FFG thinks they can put out whatever unbalanced content, and then price it out of the meta if it becomes a problem. Which is a solution, but a really crummy solution, because it's a soft ban, instead of FFG actually making balanced upgrades in the first place.

I'll give hyperspace a try, but I'm not enthused about it.

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3 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

No. I've said many times here on the forums, I don't think changing points balances the game. It makes things more expensive, but they still do the same unbalanced thing.

Putting points in the app, instead of on the cards, just seems like FFG thinks they can put out whatever unbalanced content, and then price it out of the meta if it becomes a problem. Which is a solution, but a really crummy solution, because it's a soft ban, instead of FFG actually making balanced upgrades in the first place.

I'll give hyperspace a try, but I'm not enthused about it.

This ^

I want to see if FFG will make the bad stuff cheaper or the OP stuff cheaper or BOTH.

 

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Probably not. They have to consider the balance of everything generally, and then artificially restricting what's available for building exacerbates any existing imbalances.

I also agree to an extent that points can't be the only way to balance things. Eventually you reach a point like Luke Gunner, where something just has to be priced out of existence to not break things. There are some things in the game, that given what they do, points can't balance them alone.

Add to this that I like playing certain ships, even when they're not great, because they're ships I like. I describe myself as an Imperial player, despite owning at least two of every ship (and more of some - and buying into both Prequel factions). Given the least little chance that I can do at least somewhat well with Imps, that's what I'll play. I've taken Rebels to a Regional once, and have never taken Scum to, well, anything. Extended to me looks like every faction has SOMETHING that can do at least somewhat well. Then I look at Hyperspace, and think, "What the heck is going on here?"

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I have no desire to play a format that limits me to only using  new ships (2.0).  Unless FFG would like to give me a  full refund for the several hundred dollars worth of ships that are made unusable by hyperspace. I play in a private league at work that plays extended,  so i can get all the flying i need without having to set foot into a hyperspace game.

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Here’s the problem. The best lists in Hyperspace aren’t different enough from the best lists in extended, at least for scum and Rebels.  Removing list building options doesn’t suddenly make Boba and Fenn and Wedge and Luke not the best ships in their faction, it doesn’t suddenly make protons toros any weaker on I5 and I6 pilots, it just makes them stronger because there’s fewer alternatives and fewer counters. The U-Wing and the Falcon and the TIE Advanced aren’t suddenly going to be great in hyperspace, they’re still going to be inefficient compared to the other options available.

Basically, hyperspace doesn’t open up any new options for me as a Rebel and now resistance player that weren’t already good in extended, it just cuts off deeper exploration and makes me play all he stuff I’ve already been playing and winning with. Maybe if they make the non-hyperspace legal ships in Rebels and Scum suck less then they do now, I’d be more excited about not having to deal with them in hyperspace.

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3 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

Here's the real problem with Hyperspace: FFG has been a little flippant with the points, treating it like it's just dusting crops. Without precise calculations you could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end the game pretty quickly.


Basically, this.  Hyperspace feels like FFG basically throwing in the towel and explicitly admitting that they have no idea how to actually balance a game like X-Wing.  Which is obnoxious, because so much fanfare pumping up 2.0 was that the game could be properly 'fixed' from the many lessons learned over the troubled run of 1.0, yet Extended so far has proven that there's still some things that are way too cheap and smash face and a whole heap of stuff that is hot garbage.  So, that's the main frustration with Hyperspace. 

Secondarily, it's a little frustrating, because I want to have the freedom to fly all of my stuff.  I want to be able to use the $150 I spent on conversion kits (to say nothing of the hundreds of dollars spent on Wave 1 ships across the past five years) for more than the odd pilot here or there.  But with the Hyperspace format, less than 25% of each faction's options are usable.

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7 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Basically, this.  Hyperspace feels like FFG basically throwing in the towel and explicitly admitting that they have no idea how to actually balance a game like X-Wing.  Which is obnoxious, because so much fanfare pumping up 2.0 was that the game could be properly 'fixed' from the many lessons learned over the troubled run of 1.0, yet Extended so far has proven that there's still some things that are way too cheap and smash face and a whole heap of stuff that is hot garbage.  So, that's the main frustration with Hyperspace. 

Secondarily, it's a little frustrating, because I want to have the freedom to fly all of my stuff.  I want to be able to use the $150 I spent on conversion kits (to say nothing of the hundreds of dollars spent on Wave 1 ships across the past five years) for more than the odd pilot here or there.  But with the Hyperspace format, less than 25% of each faction's options are usable.

Then play extended, like most of your local shops probably will outside of tournaments that use Hyperspace, which are far and few between. Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want.

Nobody is stopping you from playing this game the way you want to. Besides, Extended is pretty well balanced as it is, so they clearly have some competence. What's more, I'd be happy to fight non hyperspace legal content with hyperspace restrictions, since my primary faction is Resistance. I admit that I made myself fairly immune to Hyperspace VS. not Hyperspace format, doubly so by not playing First Order.

But everything you want to use will be in print for 2.0 again in time, and it won't take that long. Guarantee you it'll be a very nice, even balance of 1.0-2.0 stuff and purely 2.0 stuff. After all, the release of the Reaper and Renegades was handled exceptionally well.

I know we like to see the negatives on this forum but I ain't that kinda' person. We have loads of freedom but we're holding FFG accountable for us deciding that we can only play Hyperspace for some reason.

But that's just not true. Besides.

Hyperspace, should you choose to just play it, is going to slowly but surely let you get really good with the slim options you have. Focus on them. Learn their ins and outs. If you guys are so dead set on Hyperspace and playing it, don't get mad- treat everything else as a distraction.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Then play extended...



But this post was about asking skeptics of the Hyperspace Format if they would ever become fans of the format, and if not, what did they have against it?

It's not about playing Extended instead of Hyperspace.  It's about why we don't like Hyperspace, and if a better points-balancing of the Hyperspace Options would sufficiently address those concerns. 



Of course I'm sticking to Extended.  And I'll be doing that even if FFG suddenly becomes competent at balancing points by the January update and magically balances everything currently in Hyperspace.

But practically speaking, it's generally not healthy for a game when events (casual and competitive) start to diverge into two different and incompatible formats, because that tends to divide an already precious commodity: the friendly local gaming scene.

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2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

No. I've said many times here on the forums, I don't think changing points balances the game. It makes things more expensive, but they still do the same unbalanced thing.

How so?

If X-Wings were ten points each they'd break the game in half, but not because X-Wings do anything broken. They'd just do it too efficiently.

10 minutes ago, LTuser said:

What IS hyperspace??  A new version?  An on-line way to play??

An organized play format with a limited card/ship pool, viewable in the app or points PDFs.

 

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2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

No. I've said many times here on the forums, I don't think changing points balances the game. It makes things more expensive, but they still do the same unbalanced thing.

It depends, really.  Some balancing can come from points, just not all.  A card like Predator may be a little too potent at 0-cost, but wouldn't be worth including at 10-cost.  The problem in such cases wouldn't be the card itself, but its price.  These are the problems FFG can fix easily.

However, I do agree that point-changing can't fix everything.  If a card's ability flat-out breaks the game or is just not fun to play against, you're going to groan when it hits the table regardless of its cost.

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6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Basically, this.  Hyperspace feels like FFG basically throwing in the towel and explicitly admitting that they have no idea how to actually balance a game like X-Wing.  Which is obnoxious, because so much fanfare pumping up 2.0 was that the game could be properly 'fixed' from the many lessons learned over the troubled run of 1.0, yet Extended so far has proven that there's still some things that are way too cheap and smash face and a whole heap of stuff that is hot garbage.  So, that's the main frustration with Hyperspace. 

Secondarily, it's a little frustrating, because I want to have the freedom to fly all of my stuff.  I want to be able to use the $150 I spent on conversion kits (to say nothing of the hundreds of dollars spent on Wave 1 ships across the past five years) for more than the odd pilot here or there.  But with the Hyperspace format, less than 25% of each faction's options are usable.

 

I am about to start quoting everyone who I want to discuss their reasons with and I don’t want to invalidate points I just wanna discuss :)

starting here...isn’t it obvious that they would not balance extended perfectly the first time through? So much content! Balanced out of the gate is impossible. 

And come one ffg is not throwing in the towel, they are doing what most competitive game do...create multiple formats, especially ones easier for new players to get into, that is probably the biggest reason for hyperspace and why it’s the main regional format. 

And you say there are things that are “too cheap” and a “heap of things that are hot garbage” well won’t point tweaking make things that are too cheap...More properly priced....and at some point a tie advanced is worth it to put on the boss...stele at 38 points like resistance a wing equivalent is probably worth putting in a list, y wings at resistance a wing prices are probably worth putting in your list...a boba and fenn without the points left over to fit a coordinating shuttle is probably not so intimidating

th argument I can’t really deny is that if you want to play all your old toys of course a limited format can’t do that by nature...but I plan on playing both formats, and ffg allow both formats to exist, maybe not for regionals...but system opens and every kit and store champ equivalent can be extended...I mean at the end of the day if you play me you can put what ever plastic models you want on top of your bases

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12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But practically speaking, it's generally not healthy for a game when events (casual and competitive) start to diverge into two different and incompatible formats, because that tends to divide an already precious commodity: the friendly local gaming scene.

Then why is magic so successful? And what also stifles a friendly local gaming scene is having a game that is difficult for new players to get into... and extended is quite a huge format for a fresh player to get into, but getting a core set and some expansions is much more realistic 

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18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



But this post was about asking skeptics of the Hyperspace Format if they would ever become fans of the format, and if not, what did they have against it?

It's not about playing Extended instead of Hyperspace.  It's about why we don't like Hyperspace, and if a better points-balancing of the Hyperspace Options would sufficiently address those concerns. 



Of course I'm sticking to Extended.  And I'll be doing that even if FFG suddenly becomes competent at balancing points by the January update and magically balances everything currently in Hyperspace.

But practically speaking, it's generally not healthy for a game when events (casual and competitive) start to diverge into two different and incompatible formats, because that tends to divide an already precious commodity: the friendly local gaming scene.

For what it's worth, I did question the decision. However, with a thriving product, if any IP can get away with fragmenting a playerbase (and it's really not), it's Star Wars. Besides, like the guy above me said...

It's way, way easier to get a few expansions instead of a whole faction. Though, whoever decided not to reprint the TIE/SF really needs to consider why they have the job they have. Reprint the T-70 (well, new mold) and make the RZ2, but reprint the FO and not the SF..? eh..? Okay?

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10 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

For what it's worth, I did question the decision. However, with a thriving product, if any IP can get away with fragmenting a playerbase (and it's really not), it's Star Wars. Besides, like the guy above me said...

It's way, way easier to get a few expansions instead of a whole faction. Though, whoever decided not to reprint the TIE/SF really needs to consider why they have the job they have. Reprint the T-70 (well, new mold) and make the RZ2, but reprint the FO and not the SF..? eh..? Okay?

Dude, cut them some slack!  The FO just lost their Supreme Leader, so it's perfectly understandable that some things would fall through the cracks while they work through this difficult transition period.  Not to mention, the death of a Supreme Leader has got to be worth at least a couple days of federal holiday, so it may take some time to get the TIE/SF production line up again (especially if that particular contract was one of Snoke's pet projects which Kylo didn't really care for and wanted to cancel).

Edited by JJ48

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2 minutes ago, TheOz said:

Then why is magic so successful?


Apples and Oranges.

Most notably, perhaps, it's worth noting that the Magic Playerbase is exponentially larger than the X-Wing playerbase.  Also, Magic has been around for over 20 years with over 15,000 cards in its card pool.  There's also no such thing as a faction or a faction-restricted card in Magic.

Also, because games of Magic are easier to find (more players), faster to play (shorter games and no set-up beyond shuffling), and more convenient (small table space needed) players of Magic can get in a lot more games of Magic than an X-Winger could in the same amount of time and energy.  So there's more opportunity to get in games across multiple formats, should the player desire it.

But even then, in my experience, the Magic community is heavily splintered.  Those players who play in big casual Monday Night Commander groups are rarely the same people as on the Pro Tour who are practicing non-stop in their Pro Tour meta, for instance.   The thing is, the Magic customer base is large enough to support multiple communities like this.  Most FLGS will order a half dozen or less of each new X-Wing expansion pack.  But pretty much all of those stores will order dozens of cases of the newest Magic Set.

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3 hours ago, Koing907 said:

No. I've said many times here on the forums, I don't think changing points balances the game. It makes things more expensive, but they still do the same unbalanced thing.

Putting points in the app, instead of on the cards, just seems like FFG thinks they can put out whatever unbalanced content, and then price it out of the meta if it becomes a problem. Which is a solution, but a really crummy solution, because it's a soft ban, instead of FFG actually making balanced upgrades in the first place.

I'll give hyperspace a try, but I'm not enthused about it.

 

2 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

This ^

I want to see if FFG will make the bad stuff cheaper or the OP stuff cheaper or BOTH.

 

 

2 hours ago, Eisai said:

Probably not. They have to consider the balance of everything generally, and then artificially restricting what's available for building exacerbates any existing imbalances.

I also agree to an extent that points can't be the only way to balance things. Eventually you reach a point like Luke Gunner, where something just has to be priced out of existence to not break things. There are some things in the game, that given what they do, points can't balance them alone.

Add to this that I like playing certain ships, even when they're not great, because they're ships I like. I describe myself as an Imperial player, despite owning at least two of every ship (and more of some - and buying into both Prequel factions). Given the least little chance that I can do at least somewhat well with Imps, that's what I'll play. I've taken Rebels to a Regional once, and have never taken Scum to, well, anything. Extended to me looks like every faction has SOMETHING that can do at least somewhat well. Then I look at Hyperspace, and think, "What the heck is going on here?"

The thing is is points are not the only thing they can do, taking and opening up slots is also a tool, and they can hard errata if they need to...that’s just a last resort

i like the changing points because they can experiment with ships and what they are capable of but have an easy out if they make a mistake...every one makes mistakes but I think it’s good to be free to explore new grounds without fear

 

now on the point of pricing things out of competitive use...since no gaming company is perfect and every game accidentally breaks things(magic has like the biggest development team and they still break stuff) is over costing things really that bad...I hear some of you like playing ships even if they are not good...so if they break something but cost it out of existence...you can still play it if you want, it’s just going to cost the quality of rest of your list. But that’s what balance looks like...if they errata a card then the old ability doesn’t exist anyway..so cost it out of existence or change what it does completely...it still can’t be played in its original form. 

Design mistakes are bad but unfortunately there are only a few ways a game handle that...ban it, over cost it, or change it, and neither way is good!

now as for the majority of the ships in the game... I am a firm believer points can be so huge! As I said in a previous post If the tie advanced and y wings were in the resistance a wing price range they would be very good to consider!

and look at some of the ships balanced in wave 2 ....kylo is so good....and so freaking expensive your squad with him is pretty sad...that’s balance, it’s sacrifice. If your list building and you can get everything you want power wise...it’s too good...start cutting out parts because it can’t fit...that’s balance

 

3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Apples and Oranges.

Most notably, perhaps, it's worth noting that the Magic Playerbase is exponentially larger than the X-Wing playerbase.  Also, Magic has been around for over 20 years with over 15,000 cards in its card pool.  There's also no such thing as a faction or a faction-restricted card in Magic.

Also, because games of Magic are easier to find (more players), faster to play (shorter games and no set-up beyond shuffling), and more convenient (small table space needed) players of Magic can get in a lot more games of Magic than an X-Winger could in the same amount of time and energy.  So there's more opportunity to get in games across multiple formats, should the player desire it.

But even then, in my experience, the Magic community is heavily splintered.  Those players who play in big casual Monday Night Commander groups are rarely the same people as on the Pro Tour who are practicing non-stop in their Pro Tour meta, for instance.   The thing is, the Magic customer base is large enough to support multiple communities like this.  Most FLGS will order a half dozen or less of each new X-Wing expansion pack.  But pretty much all of those stores will order dozens of cases of the newest Magic Set.

But In this day and age Star Wars is huge! Why can’t a Star Wars game grow to that potential in 20 years. Especially with the amazing fundamentals that got every player on this forum Into x wing.

Also magic has a diverse player base because it supports diverse ways to play, counter top, multiple formats for people who been playing forever(legacy) and a format new players can get into competitively( standard) and commander which is for the non competitive long time player, it’s these multiple formats that has allowed the game to grow over 20 years! 

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4 minutes ago, TheOz said:

But In this day and age Star Wars is huge! Why can’t a Star Wars game grow to that potential in 20 years. Especially with the amazing fundamentals that got every player on this forum Into x wing.

First of all, it may be prudent to worry about getting X-Wing to the 20-year mark before worrying about what a 20-year-old game can and can't do.

Additionally, I would just like to point out that many (possibly even most) Star Wars fans aren't even gamers of any kind, much less miniatures gamers.  It's ok to speculate about what could be, but basing the size of X-Wing's player base on the size of the Star Wars fanbase is wishful thinking at best.

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