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GreenDragoon

Five A-Wings

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I was thinking and I might try a new version

L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)
Predator (2)

Greer Sonnel (36)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Zari Bangel (35)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

The reasoning is that Greer's ability is the one I'd like most. And the only reason not to take him is his i4. But I should be able to handle that. The next ability I really want is Zari's. All I pay for it is the defensive downgrade on Lulo. But considering how often I really use LW I honestly can't justify it. I know, Tallie, but I seriously see the high i as detrimental to how I want to or do play the list. One is fine, two are too much. I'm already slightly concerned for Greer, but I'll try.

I hope to gain two things from Predator: first is the offensive benefit equal to advanced optics, second is that my opponents will try to evade it. I will not chase the bullseye but take it when it happens. The alternatives are trickshot or a bid or crackshot. The bid sounds best to me tbh, but I'll give predator a go.

Thoughts?

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22 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I hope to gain two things from Predator: first is the offensive benefit equal to advanced optics, second is that my opponents will try to evade it. I will not chase the bullseye but take it when it happens.

Just remember that there is no aft bullseye arc. Might seem to be a "no duh" right now, but if you kite enough it may slip from memory. :)

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27 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Just remember that there is no aft bullseye arc. Might seem to be a "no duh" right now, but if you kite enough it may slip from memory. :)

Trickshot or bid then? I'm really not certain, and the bid seems like the most consistent use...

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Trickshot or bid then? I'm really not certain, and the bid seems like the most consistent use...

2 points as a bid? I think you'll get more consistent results out of Trick Shot or Predator.

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Posted (edited)

I tried Steven DeBirk's list (Lulo/Tali/Zari all crack) and didn't like the mixed PS much, probably just takes some getting used to. May try it with just Lulo/Tali with crack, blues, and a bid (AO/heroic on everyone)

Edited by prauxim

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9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

2 points as a bid? I think you'll get more consistent results out of Trick Shot or Predator.

Trickshot didn't really work for me the few times I tried, and predator is - as you said - front bullseye only. But I had many games against 199 or 200pt lists. In fact now that I think about it, the one time I really want a bid is when I go against efficiency squads who usually max out or almost max out. The other times, a bid is nice to have but not crucial.

9 hours ago, prauxim said:

I tried Steven DeBirk's list (Lulo/Tali/Zari all crack) and didn't like the mixed PS much, probably just takes some getting used to. May try it with just Lulo/Tali with crack, blues, and a bid (AO/heroic on everyone)

I really don't see Tallie's value, but I am the odd one out there. Lulo Tallie and 3 Greens, all with heroic and optics, fits exactly. I don't see the worth of crackshot as much as I value the i3 against other swarms below that.

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Trickshot didn't really work for me the few times I tried, and predator is - as you said - front bullseye only. But I had many games against 199 or 200pt lists. In fact now that I think about it, the one time I really want a bid is when I go against efficiency squads who usually max out or almost max out. The other times, a bid is nice to have but not crucial.

I really don't see Tallie's value, but I am the odd one out there. Lulo Tallie and 3 Greens, all with heroic and optics, fits exactly. I don't see the worth of crackshot as much as I value the i3 against other swarms below that.

Basically I consider her dirt cheap I5 to match Lulo, plus with the crack there's enough motivation to line up the bullseye which makes her ability worth not nothing.

I'm even weirder I guess, I like Tali more than Lulo. She feels like an Awing and he feels like a bubble that I have to devote to much conscious effort to not popping.

At the end of the day though, in the context of the lists ceiling, I suspect simply having I5 in whatever form is the highest value upgrade to 5A after AO.

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Posted (edited)

Mid initiatives lists usually dont have a bid. Tossing in a 2pt bid when you are running all awings can be great. Against lists like the quad gold Ywing ion list that are i3, you probably want them to move first to dodge their arcs. TIE salad that runs at 200pts has Vermeil/countdown/gideon all at i4. Choosing Greer to move after them probably a good bet since the others can block them. I think a small bid can be worth it when choosing to block, or to not block. Mid inits is becoming a little more important these days.

Then again, never hurts having a couple crackshots in the squad

Edited by wurms

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Posted (edited)

XVT Round 4 game, 9.3.19

4+1 v2.1
vs
XXYYY

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: 2x Yion and 2 X-wings, a 5th ship with a turret. The ions are the largest threat, but it does not matter so much and I have to focus on arc dodging.

Deployment: See image. I used his rocks to close off the western part of the map. I don't want to fight in open space, so that's where I'll go. Accordingly he set up in the NE corner and me in the SW corner. I placed the two large middle ones and the smaller one to form a line. This gave him a clear area where to engage and was my first mistake of the game. I should not even have let him have that. Why not place my third rock in the SE field or E field and make the approach there more difficult? Or force him to setup west, and then I can go very fast up the estern edge?

The gameplan for the first turns: Fake a full flight to get enough time, but do the sloop and go back around the rocks. That way he's hopefully too committed and eager to follow me as I don't think he'd normally just fly through these rocks. Lulo will press ahead along the western edge and take some pot shots.

How it went:

Turn 1-3: Pretty much as expected. He came down very slow (half a board in 3 turns). I stupidly abandoned my plan on turn 3 and turned in. The reasoning at the time (6:30am ^^) was that his Xwings might be overeager and turn in. Or they won't and then the ywings are alone. In any case I'll be fine if I turn in and trade shots with everything against part of his list. But I then abandoned that too and set up my next turn. Lulo took a first shot on turn 3 and plinked just a shield. The original idea was the correct choice and I had no reason to stop following this plan.

Turn 4: Lulo had to turn away. The threat of all or some Yions turning into him was too large, even if that would tear his list apart. Awings 1,3,4 went through the rocks. The repositioning from last turn allowed me to fit through perfectly. I was going to take 1 or even two range 3 shots (one obstructed) on one Awing but that is fine because what are the odds?! Nr 2 turned east, giving him something to focus on. This was a mistake because I had just decided that I would try to drag him through the rocks, right? So why give him even more reason NOT to do that? Going back to the odds: of course the 5% event happened and Nr3 lost 2 shields in the obstructed attack despite a focus.

Turn 5: More mistakes! Nr2 wanted to go fast now along the S edge to pass them. The 5 straight was so obvious that I thought I'd stay simple and do it. I should have done a bank. If I bank right boost left, what is he going to do? His whole list would have to turn towards the edge (which I can't punish at all because my ships are running away... facepalm!) and if doesn't then I dodge all but one arc. Lulo clearly turns in, and the other 3 will go around the rocks (one back south though!). He made the block by rolling and shot down nr2. My bad. Lulo shot on a VTG Yion now (unlike the first shot) because it was previously just a single shield and I might force him to spend a focus, so nr2 has slightly better chances. But he was going to take 5 shots (on Yion was r2 by a pixel or so) and died on the very last shot.

Turn 6: More mistakes! His Yions k-turned. Well what did I expect, that he turns in?! Of course they would, why shouldn't they when Lulo is following so closely? The correct maneuver for Lulo was a 2 straight to stay out of 4 arcs and just take a r3 shot from an unmodded Y. But I went 5 straight and took 3 shots instead, one R1. My Nr1 went 3 bank and boosted, placing him into 3 arcs. The correct choice was to either run away, or to go 2bank+roll left backwards taking just one shot instead and giving me better options for the next turn. Nr3 was in good position, Nr4 was just wrong. I could have boosted to get a shot and didn't. Why not? I don't know. Well nr3 in his great position took a 3vs4 shot and the 7% event happened to take 2 hull damage. So this guy died to extremes! Lulo somehow got away with just losing one shield. But at this point I'm down 2 ships and have dealt 9 damage spread on two targets. Still possible, but a tough fight.

Turn 7: Completely miscalculated. I realized that Nr1 was in a bad position. The correct choice was to disengage, turn left, and try again later. However Nr4 was in a good position to try a 1hard into the board. His 2straight+boost was not able to block it (he went 1 straight). At worst I'd take a range 1 shot. But I should have realized that he was now trying to take out Lulo or Nr1 and so I turned this guy away. One of his ions was going to bump me if he tried clearling the stress. The other two would probably follow Lulo (I did bank in, the other went straight. I should have realized (mistake) that both banking would bump). The other X kturned again. That meant the 1hard into the board by my nr4 would have had his choice of R1 shots without taking anything back. But no, I turned away and took myself out of the next few turns (mistake). Lulo went too slow (mistake) and had to roll out of the ion turret, which meant I was not going to remove the heavily damaged Y, which meant another shot for my Nr1. Here I made the possibly correct but sad decision for nr1 not to spend the focus on the two R3 attacks (which obviously dealt a shield each, and that or more is the 23% event) to help against the ion. He got 3 natties on his R1 ion shot, and I took 1h1ion (that or more is a 14% chance). So this ionized 1hull Awing was clearly going to die next turn.

Turn 8: At this point it was 7:15am and I had all but thrown the towel. His 4 ships turned in to finish the ionized guy off which was clearly the right thing to do. Lulo was going to go out in a blaze of glory, so I 2hard+boosted into range 1 for a lucky shot. Brought a Y down to 1 hull (the other was at 3) to either force him spending the focus or even kill him. All went for the 1hull guy first, and he went up in flames on the 4th attack. I did not get Lonewolf on the defense due to simultaneous fire, and took a first shield in the primary of a Y, then 1h+2ion in his next attack. So clearly Lulo was going down next, too.

Turn 9: Nr 4 slowly came back into the fight. My opponent ganged up on Lulo and removed him (but not before - finally - losing his first ship, too! The 3 hull Ywing went out). One Awing vs 2 almost full X, a full Y and one on 1hull. The game was over, but he was fine with playing another 30min. I wanted to take some MOV with me.

Turn 10: We traded one shot each, I lost a shield.
Turn 11: Here I went fast with 5 straight to jump past him and take a rear shot on an xwing, dodging all arcs.
Turn 12: Turning in to take out the 1hull Ywing through the rock, but lost another shield and the 3vs5 dealt of course a crit (1 hit or more is 27%). 
Turn 13: Dodged all arcs.
Turn 14: Took two shots but was safe.
Turn 15: Jumped into R1 of the Y but this allowed me to take a good shot at a tokenfree Xwing. It brought him down to half points, the game ended, and I lost 89-200.

Conclusion/Lessons:

He played a very solid game start to finish with very few/no mistakes or questionable decisions. The matchup is a hard one, but it is mine to win or lose as soon as the opponent plays ok. This one played very well and so I had not much leeway for mistakes. Yet I made plenty, and the result reflects that as it should. The dice didn't help as there were many very rare events happening against me, but they were not the reason I lost.

The lessons are not new but worth reiterating:

  • Once more: Don't abandon your plan on a whim;
  • If the obvious solution with an obvious block loses a ship: don't do it...;
  • Take a bit more care during the rock placement;
  • Disengage!;
  • Take a good look at your opponent's options - what can he do?;

Setup:
BGNqyUX.png?1

Turn 1-3:
DAubrYo.png?1
jYNd44w.png?1
iM3uS47.png?1

Turn 4: first shots
ogLghx1.png?1

Turn 5: lost a ship, and so many mistakes
kys5xNa.png?1

Turn 6: Messed up a lot more
KB8hNEW.png?1

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Posted (edited)

After reading TLFJ's thoughts on beatdown vs control I will revisit my games and see whether I find any correlation between a role and wins/losses. I don't know off the top of my hat, I guess I had more wins as control. But the beatdown games are very nice when they work out.

On another note, I had a small extended tournament today where I tested the new version with Greer. I love *her! The free rotate opens up the dial a lot, and the choice of 1hard and 3 hard can be amazing. But it makes everything a bit more complicated, too. Flying him with Zari is good as she doesn't care as much about bumps. Lulo was surprisingly sad without trickshot which I could have used several times. But the bid, too, paid off in three games out of four and that was in the end more important I believe.

I went just 2-2. First game was against my team mate (4th time in 5 tournaments...), and we both thought I was miles ahead. Then we counted points and realized he won. Second and third games were wins against rather new players. Last game against a kid who played Fenn Guri Dalan. I didn't have the heart to play it correctly as it is a very tough game for me and I would have to be extremely careful and methodical. But here I just tried some stupid things that didn't work out. Somehow I still placed 4th/10 at the end of the day.

I realized that playing extended is very liberating, too, as I just don't care about the result and play around with my Awings and have some fun. In Hyperspace on the other hand I know I can do well and that can have a fun-suffocating effect. Especially if it doesn't work out.

Edit: Oh and first time I used Launchbay next during a tournament. Never again without it!

Edited by GreenDragoon

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

On another note, I had a small extended tournament today where I tested the new version with Greer. I love him!

Greer is a human woman.  Former racer, assistant to Senator Organa.  I only know this because I read the Bloodlines book.

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Posted (edited)

At Ohio I had my first 5 RZ2 mirror match against Mark Moriarity. He crushed me as I had to fight off a 200-0, which I eventually got half on his Zari and just called it there. I just messed up on a few levels, but mainly positioning and getting greedy early in the game for some extra shots which cost me positioning in the main engagement turns.

Overall, 5 RZ2s is a strong list in the hyperspace meta, but unsure how strong in extended. Along with that Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian is also one of the strongest that seems to give 5 RZ2s some trouble. I know I mentioned I would be posting some positioning and vassal images a week or more ago, but I didn't want to give away my game plan just be a Hyperspace Trial. Expect that to come within the week. 

Edited by RStan

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RStan said:

Along with that Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian is also one of the strongest that seems to give 5 RZ2s some trouble.

Oh, you mean that list I've been running locally for over 2 months?  No, never heard of it.

I'll never go a big event soon enough to be an architect.  Eff.

Edited by gennataos

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Date

List

Result

Beatdown/Control

Notes

10.2.19

Vynder Jendon Zertik Seyn

Loss 76-81

Beatdown

His large alpha potential means I can’t afford to have just few rounds of shots and he has the inevitability

In my opinion, I (at least partially) lost due to the few rounds of fire, just 4.

10.2.19

Drea Swarm

Win 137-81

Control

Initiative and Maneuverability. I decided where we engaged.

 

10.2.19

4 unique Y

Win 104-84

Control? (I’m not sure)

Control because I are so much more maneuverable and can/have to force the engagement of my choice.

Beatdown because he isn’t really?

 

10.2.19

BBBBA

Win 59-20

Control

Initiative and Maneuverability. However, I left him the center of the map and choice of engagements because he had such a strong beatdown against my list.

 

13.2.19

Lulo Greer Finch

Win 200-123

Beatdown

His board control with the bombs and prockets, lower ship count and high initiative meant he could decide how we engage. In addition, I clearly wanted to trade ships up.

I traded 1:1 for Greer, then later basically 1:1 Lulo for Finch.

17.2.19

XXXXY

Win  200-120

Control

Initiative and Maneuverability. Engagements of my choice, not letting him trade equally (or trying to).

He actually traded up for some turns!

20.2.19

TIE swarm

Win 200-103

Control

Maneuverability plus initiative by proxy as he always telegraphed with his AP. However, I’ve let him have his engagement as he just Kturned forever on his side.

 

23.2.19

QD OL Blackout

Loss 99-122

? (Probably beatdown)

He had a great beatdown ability throughout the game due to Blackout and QD. But at the same time his high initiative meant he had choice of engagements and dodged arcs like crazy. Maybe he was both here? I had to try to trade up and failed miserably at it.

 

23.2.19

Han Fenn Seevor ORP

Win 122-82

Beatdown (with a hint of control in the beginning)

I managed to have control against his low initiative ships, and then played beatdown against the rest.

Han, Fenn

23.2.19

Han Fenn Drone Seevor

Loss 144-156

Beatdown

I had to seek the up-trades and chased him. Plus, Fenn and Scum Han are incredibly strong control elements against my Awings

Han, Fenn

23.2.19

Han Fenn Teroch

Loss 93-200

Beatdown

Started well with great engagement and trying to trade up.

Han, Fenn

4.3.19

Luke Wedge

Loss 74-83

Beatdown

I have to trade up, and I am almost powerless against Luke.

Luke

6.3.19

XXYYY

Loss 89-200

Control

I could and should have controlled where we engage. He has an easy way of trading up due to way more HP and damage output.

 

10.3.19

Drea’s 5Y

Loss 81-101

Control

I got my engagements. The reason I lost was based in one or two misplays in a tough matchup.

 

10.3.19

Corran Wedge Kyle

Win 200-60

Beatdown

I trade up, I win. I did and did.

 

10.3.19

Luke Horton Sabine Arvel

Win 200-39

Beatdown and Control

This was an example of what happens when you are both. Due to my ini bid, I got initiative on two of his ships, took out Horton fast, and Luke wasted his time fighting arcdodging Lulo 1v1

Luke (took me almost 8 turns of concentrated fire to take him out…)

10.3.19

Fenn Guri Dalan

Loss 104-200

Beatdown (?)

3x3Agility means I had a very hard time punching through, and curved barrel rolls meant he can arcdodge and take the engagements he wanted. Possibly I was neither and just had a really hard matchup. The way to win is IMO to be extremely cautious and force taking some control elements.

Fenn

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4+1 v2.5

L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Green Squadron Expert (34)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

One game so far which I won. Ironic because I've been so adamant against crackshots.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I was also against crack and have recently come around to thinking it's great on RZ2s, esp on higher initiative pilots.

Man, now I'm at a crossroads as to what to fly at my local HT this weekend.

I tried "Max Initiative Crack" variant of 5A (3 named pilots with crack) and ofc its really good, and obviously is performing very well, but (a) requires much more attention to move order (b) all four times I flew it I've been sick and made several mistakes because I didn't pay enough attention to move order

But, I do totally believe and understand why it's better that the list I normally fly, Jess + 4 Blues.

Butbut, I often fly better at tourneys than rando games during the week.

So it's basically (a) take Jess and risk the possibly of having a great piloting day but feeling limited by the list or (b) take the named As and potentially fly poorly because I'm not comfortable with the list and/or not flying as well as I usually do as tourneys

Edited by prauxim

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11 minutes ago, prauxim said:

So it's basically (a) take Jess and risk the possibly of having a great piloting day but feeling limited by the list or (b) take the named As and potentially fly poorly because I'm not comfortable with the list and/or not flying as well as I usually do as tourneys

It's usually better to take the list that you enjoy more.

Personally I don't feel comfortable (yet) with the Lulo Tallie Greer Zari Blue list. But the little exercise in control/beatdown showed me that I tend to be better as control, and higher initiative and i1 supports that!

I still won't bring it to my next tournament because I am more comfortable with the 4 greens (or at least 2. I realize I didn't post version 2.4)

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6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's usually better to take the list that you enjoy more.

Personally I don't feel comfortable (yet) with the Lulo Tallie Greer Zari Blue list. But the little exercise in control/beatdown showed me that I tend to be better as control, and higher initiative and i1 supports that!

I still won't bring it to my next tournament because I am more comfortable with the 4 greens (or at least 2. I realize I didn't post version 2.4)

I'm more comfortable with Jess, but hard to say which one I actually like more. 

I don't actually own a 5th copy of AO yet and definitely don't need another Tie/FO, so maybe that'll tip me..
 

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3 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I'm more comfortable with Jess, but hard to say which one I actually like more. 

I don't actually own a 5th copy of AO yet and definitely don't need another Tie/FO, so maybe that'll tip me..
 

So the version played by @RStan uses only 4 AO, Lulo doesn't need one... 😂

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So the version played by @RStan uses only 4 AO, Lulo doesn't need one... 😂

Yeah, I can see his logic. I'm definitely not ready to fly 4 named though. I was trying Lulo/Tali/Blues, for which I think you need 5 AOs.

Do we have any game-play videos of how ones of these 3-4 named lists fly? RStan mentioned less formation flying.

Edited by prauxim

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1 minute ago, prauxim said:

Yeah, I can see his logic. I'm definitely not ready to fly 4 named though. I was trying Lulo/Tali/Blues, for which I think you need 5 AOs.

Do we have any game-play videos of how ones of these 3-4 named lists fly? RStan mentioned less formation flying.

I'm planning on getting those non-formation vassal images together tonight. There definitely isn't a wrong answer for AO on Lulo or not. Mark Moriarity beat the crap out of me in a 5 RZ2 mirror and had almost the same list except Lulo had AO, no crack on Zari and only Heroic on the Blue. I don't think there's a wrong answer either way, just make sure to have at least 4 AOs, 3-4 Cracks and at least 4 Heroics. 

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