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GreenDragoon

Five A-Wings

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

My homework is to figure out how I can best develop a proper formation when I have to move east.

The problem is the following: if the ships are set up in the proper finger four, then a 2hard of nr4 and a 3hard+boost straight of nr2 will bump. However, if both 4 and 3 do a 3hard, then they will almost bump. It works on vassal, but does it work on the table?

czgDx3X.png

Plus, going into such a tight box has a strong influence on further maneuvers. The two tight ships (nr 3 and 4) can't bank now without overlapping.

Another option is to setup just a bit wider if the asteroids permit that. All I need is to move nr4 a bit further midwards. Then it can 2 hard and nr2 won't bump it with the boost. And even if it does - at worst it's just a tad too far back. That's still much better than what I'm doing currently.

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I'm really not good with setting up images but I'll try to explain the suggestion I presented in the Kryat thread a little better. The TripUps demon that exists at the moment (might not after the points adjustment today) relies on 3 things. Full information during setup against most opponents (due to being able to be deployed at I6 thanks to Hyperspace tracking data), first engagement happening while they have their full initial token stack ( Dormitz's ability is the key here), and surviving intact till time to force final salvo. The first and last ones I don't have an answer to but I think avoiding the initial engagement is possible using a low I swarm setup tactic I make use of when I'm facing someone who is guaranteed to move after me (bait a direction and then change up with the turn 1 maneuver depending on where the opponent sets up).

We'll use the map you credit to @Biophysical to hopefully help me be clear, this is for your 4+1 list.

109792632_TablePositions.png.98385006300

Setup: Pick either the SW or SE corner and position your squad in the standard finger 4 starting position but have the individual ships facing the corner you did not set up in (so same positions but the ships themselves are rotated 90deg from the normal facing for the formation).

Planning: If Dormitz and the others set up directly North or in the next north position closest to the middle line of you, hard out (5 straight + boost, for the +1 as well) towards the corner you didn't set up in (example: Starting in SE Corner fly fast towards SW Corner and vice versa). If Dormitz and crew set up Diagonal to you or in the next north area in from the diagonal position, 1 turn to the north then barrel roll away from Dormitz and crew (have the +1 hard out towards your other corner). If they set up middle north have your outside north ship hard 1 and barrel roll away, your inside north hard 1 and boost away, and both of your south ships hard out towards the opposite starting corner for you. Have your +1 (Lu'lo I think) do the same as your south pair in the finger 4, but make sure they're in a position not to block the hard out from the finger 4 if that ends up being the choice.

This should keep you out of range of being attacked when the Ups's have their full token stack. From there it becomes dodge and plink hoping to take one down and not go to final salvo.

Edited by Hiemfire

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I will put your suggestion into vassal when I get home and come back with images so we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

So this was my so far best attempt at head-simming it:

7T4QTiD.png

But the setup at an angle makes it much harder. If this were to work, I could at least just joust one of them - which is favorable for me. The rear arc shots in turn 2 do the rest and hopefully put me ahead on points. Then it's just a waiting game.

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I will put your suggestion into vassal when I get home and come back with images so we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

So this was my so far best attempt at head-simming it:

7T4QTiD.png

But the setup at an angle makes it much harder. If this were to work, I could at least just joust one of them - which is favorable for me. The rear arc shots in turn 2 do the rest and hopefully put me ahead on points. Then it's just a waiting game.

That's 4 fully modded dice at range 2 going into the middle green If I'm looking at it correctly. I'm thinking that starting with the following initial setup (or flipped to the other corner) with your ships rotated 90deg facing your other corner would give you a better chance at avoiding, or at least rolling 4 green with the ship being shot at by, their first salvo even if the Ups's are set up on a diag initially.

czgDx3X.png

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I started suggesting the same thing as you are now :)

 

I can't lose a ship to a 4 dice attack, due to heroic, unless with the right crit. That might be one of the most favorable openings for many lists against UUUpsilons. All I need after is half damage on Dormitz, who has anyway fewer tokens (no reinforce, no target lock). And reinforce doesn't bother me one bit even if he has it - if I get 5 damage in two turns I'm set for the game. That's my line of thinking at the moment.

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm thinking that starting with the following initial setup (or flipped to the other corner) with your ships rotated 90deg facing your other corner would give you a better chance at avoiding, or at least rolling 4 green with the ship being shot at by, their first salvo even if the Ups's are set up on a diag initially.

The problem is, I can't outrun the upsilons in a way that ends in less than one single modified attack. Deploying in the corner makes it much much easier to cover all options. See the image. The most "east" silencer (pretty much the outer of the finger four!) and the most west silencer are 8 ships apart. That is one more than 5straight + boost. He can cover the entire length with at least one arc, and that is just for the one ship completely in the back.

yHvHrnE.png

But the other 2 ships that are more forward will have a harder time! Of course nr1+2 (the ones usually setup at the edge) can turn in and boost. But that only works if he does exactly what is shown in the image!

 

If I start in the corner, he can setup more towards that eastern (=right) side, too. That means, absolutely no chance to outrun it if going along the edge, and absolutely no chance to turn+boost out.

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Um. The set up you're showing here of the Ups's is illegal. The ship (in this case Dormitz, not the other Upsilons due to Dormitz's ability) cannot cross the range 1 line and Large bases are more than 1 range band across diagonally.

yHvHrnE.png

Place Forces: Players place their ships into the play area in initiative order from lowest to highest initiative, using player order as a tiebreaker. Ships must be placed within range 1 of their player edge. When a ship with a turret arc indicator is placed, the player rotates the arc to select a standard arc. Each ship with a turret arc indicator may rotate its indicator when the ship is placed.

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Um. The set up you're showing here of the Ups's is illegal. The ship (in this case Dormitz, not the other Upsilons due to Dormitz's ability) cannot cross the range 1 line and Large bases are more than 1 range band across diagonally.

That would be new. It definitely was legal in 1.0 if the ship starts at the back of the mat. We can ask in the rules subforum. But if we assume it is legal, does it not wreck my usual deployment? Because I think it does.

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Um. The set up you're showing here of the Ups's is illegal. The ship (in this case Dormitz, not the other Upsilons due to Dormitz's ability) cannot cross the range 1 line and Large bases are more than 1 range band across diagonally.

yHvHrnE.png

Place Forces: Players place their ships into the play area in initiative order from lowest to highest initiative, using player order as a tiebreaker. Ships must be placed within range 1 of their player edge. When a ship with a turret arc indicator is placed, the player rotates the arc to select a standard arc. Each ship with a turret arc indicator may rotate its indicator when the ship is placed.

This diagonal placement is legal.  I forget when/where/how it was specified as legal in 1.0, but I've seen nothing to contradict it being legal in 2.0.

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6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

This diagonal placement is legal.  I forget when/where/how it was specified as legal in 1.0, but I've seen nothing to contradict it being legal in 2.0.

How "Within Range" is described in the Rules Reference does.

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

How "Within Range" is described in the Rules Reference does.

You know, you're really good at spotting these things! I wonder what the answers will be in the rules thread, but at the moment I can entirely see your point and agree with it. We have the precedent of 1.0, but that is not too meaningful.

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4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You know, you're really good at spotting these things! I wonder what the answers will be in the rules thread, but at the moment I can entirely see your point and agree with it. We have the precedent of 1.0, but that is not too meaningful.

I started playing about 6 months before 2.0 was announced so I have fewer things to unlearn. I am going to dig into the rules a bit more and see if there is an exception I missed, namely if it is in a part explaining the different base sizes, though if that is in the core rules then it is moot (RR over rules CR if there is a contradiction).

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Anyway, let's assume Dormitz deploys within range 1 and the other two ships still at an angle. That only loses some few cm and doesn't actually change the core of the argument:

I can't outrun the upsilons in a way that ends in less than one single modified attack.

  • Deploying in the corner makes it much much easier to cover all options. The most "east" silencer (pretty much the outer of the finger four!) and the most west silencer are 8 ships apart. That is one more than 5straight + boost. He can still  cover the entire length with at least one upsilon  arc, and that is just for the one ship completely in the back. The other 2 ships that are more forward will have a harder time!
  • If I start in the corner, he can setup more towards that eastern (=right) side, too. That means, absolutely no chance to outrun it if going along the edge, and absolutely no chance to turn+boost out.

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8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I started playing about 6 months before 2.0 was announced so I have fewer things to unlearn. I am going to dig into the rules a bit more and see if there is an exception I missed, namely if it is in a part explaining the different base sizes, though if that is in the core rules then it is moot (RR over rules CR if there is a contradiction).

Page 17 of the current RR,

• During setup, a large ship’s base may extend outside of range 1 as long as it fills the length of that area. A large ship cannot be placed with any portion of its base outside the play area. 

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1 minute ago, gennataos said:

Page 17 of the current RR,

• During setup, a large ship’s base may extend outside of range 1 as long as it fills the length of that area. A large ship cannot be placed with any portion of its base outside the play area. 

I just found it myself. Kept looking for a section called "Bases" or I'd have posted it sooner. The section your quoting starts on page 16 and is called Ship Sizes.

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10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Anyway, let's assume Dormitz deploys within range 1 and the other two ships still at an angle. That only loses some few cm and doesn't actually change the core of the argument:

I can't outrun the upsilons in a way that ends in less than one single modified attack.

  • Deploying in the corner makes it much much easier to cover all options. The most "east" silencer (pretty much the outer of the finger four!) and the most west silencer are 8 ships apart. That is one more than 5straight + boost. He can still  cover the entire length with at least one upsilon  arc, and that is just for the one ship completely in the back. The other 2 ships that are more forward will have a harder time!
  • If I start in the corner, he can setup more towards that eastern (=right) side, too. That means, absolutely no chance to outrun it if going along the edge, and absolutely no chance to turn+boost out.

So it comes down to a choice between having to roll 4-5 green dice on 2 range 3 4 dice attacks or only rolling 3 against 1 4 die red attack. On turn 1... That stinks, especially since the RZ-2s and Silencers are 2 of the most nimble ships in the game and they can't even get clear (I don't even think a boosting Falcon could fully clear).

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1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

So it comes down to a choice between having to roll 4-5 green dice on 2 range 3 4 dice attacks or only rolling 3 against 1 4 die red attack.

Yes, as far as I understand it.

Plus, Dormitz has no lock and has to call it correctly to not waste his coordinate on one of the front upsilons.

Plus, going against Dormitz means you'll be safe the turn after.

That's why I think by now that racing towards them is the better option.

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All is well, the lists survived as expected, except version 2.2. But that's ok, I didn't use trickshot that often anyway.

Here's a fun exercise: The lists I played against, how much they cost now, and whether I won or lost:

  • vs SloaneStrikers (e)
    • now illegal, no more sloane on Whisper.
  • vs Scum Mix: Teroch, Palob, Kavil, L337 (e)
    • 226, won with some luck
  • vs Junkyard Falcons (e)
    • 214, lost
  • vs Scum Swarm (e)
    • 216, lost
  • (vassal) vs UUYY (h)
    • 194, won
  • (vassal) vs HanWarden (e)
    • 185 (wow!), won
  • (vassal) vs PoeRey (h), Crackshots instead of Heroic
    • 198, won (up from 195)
  • (vassal) vs PoeRey (e), Crackshots instead of Heroic. Extended because DebrisGambit
    • 202, won
  • vs BobaTerochPioneer (h)
    • 219, won
  • (vassal) vs RecoilBackdraftScorchLongshot (h)
    • 196 (down from 200) won
  • (vassal) vs FennKavilLandoGunrunner (e)
    • 204 (up from 192!), lost
  • (vassal) vs BobaTerochSeevorPioneer (h)
    • 224, lost
  • vs BobaGuri (e)
    • 213, lost

The games I lost have an average point cost now of 214 points. Of course they were usually with a bid before. That's quite interesting to me and reinforces my thought that the Awings can really do quite well.

e: The games I won have an average point cost now of 202 points. Same story with the bid.

Overall the lists have 206 points cost. So I was generally playing uphill according to the current cost.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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5 minutes ago, arctic_rogue said:

What are you thinking will be your version of choice now?

Good question!

There was an important change for me: the Blues have now a talent slot! Now I can save 8 points by downgrading.

There might be a hidden gem waiting, but I think I'll try to make Lulo more expensive. Adding prockets to lone wolf for example is worth a try. That ends at 199 again.

I know I previously said my main reason for the I3 generics is that I can't spend the points. But now I can spend 4 more points on the generics, and can still fit prockets. No clue whether that's really worth it.

While I don't see that much value in the I3 over I1, I have to say that the simultaneous fire against all these pesky I3 scum ships was quite nice. And the irrational part: Who chooses recruits over Experts?!

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8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Good question!

There was an important change for me: the Blues have now a talent slot! Now I can save 8 points by downgrading.

There might be a hidden gem waiting, but I think I'll try to make Lulo more expensive. Adding prockets to lone wolf for example is worth a try. That ends at 199 again.

I know I previously said my main reason for the I3 generics is that I can't spend the points. But now I can spend 4 more points on the generics, and can still fit prockets. No clue whether that's really worth it.

While I don't see that much value in the I3 over I1, I have to say that the simultaneous fire against all these pesky I3 scum ships was quite nice. And the irrational part: Who chooses recruits over Experts?!

I played against barrage bombers with the 4+1.   It would have been nice to have the inot 1 to run a block.   But on the flip side, I almost had Jonas off the board before the init 2 bombers fired.  

Aren't recruits more enthisiastic than experts??  :)

Edited by arctic_rogue

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27 minutes ago, arctic_rogue said:

I played against barrage bombers with the 4+1.   It would have been nice to have the inot 1 to run a block.   But on the flip side, I almost had Jonas off the board before the init 2 bombers fired.  

Aren't recruits more enthisiastic than experts??  :)

I'm really torn.

Pro Blues:

  • The threat of prockets on Lulo looks great on paper;
  • more blocks;
  • Lulo has even more points, making him an even better bait

Con:

  • no I3 for simultaneous fire
  • no I3 for the few moments of comfortable arcdodging
  • is it really worth it?

Looks like the enthusiastic Blues have it for now

edit: Duh, why not LoneWolf and AdvancedOptics? That puts Lulo on 48 and gives me 4pt bid (or a ion missile...? lol) Probably better than the procket overall.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Yes, was tinkering around a bit. Jake at 42 is kinda set for me. The question is 4 prockets or not.

I'm not sure what combination of talents or even single talent is really good. Crackshot + outmaneuver maybe? Outmaneuver has been my favorite talent since I started, so I'm very biased there.

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Thoughts?

Finger: 4+1

(38) L'ulo L'ampar
(1) Heroic
(2) Trick Shot
(4) Advanced Optics
(7) Proton Rockets
Points 52

(32) Blue Squadron Recruit
(4) Advanced Optics
(1) Heroic
Points 37

(32) Blue Squadron Recruit
(4) Advanced Optics
(1) Heroic
Points 37

(32) Blue Squadron Recruit
(1) Heroic
(4) Advanced Optics
Points 37

(32) Blue Squadron Recruit
(1) Heroic
(4) Advanced Optics
Points 37

Total points: 200

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