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GreenDragoon

Five A-Wings

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Just got schooled! Great loss where I learned many things. I'll have to fill in the details later though, now is too late.

Vassal game, 14.1.19

4+1
vs
FennKavilLandoGunrunner

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: Clearly Kavil first due to his threat map combined with how fast I can take him down. Then it depends. Fenn is an obvious threat, but also hard to catch. Maybe the Gunrunner next. I'm not caring too much about Lando.

Deployment: See setup image.

The gameplan for the first turns:

How it went:

Lessons/Conclusion:

  • Don't ever dare to not prioritize Kavil again! Dorsal+Protons+Trickshot is massive! His threat map is dark red in too many places.
  • Don't remove the ship first that you see as lowest threat
  • Kavil doesn't have to care too much about asteroids. Especially with trickshot
  • Don't mindgame yourself against a Gunrunner
  • and make sure you don't fly onto the asteroid for the case he doesn't tractorbeam you...
  • and remember that it's an action, so no point in thinking about his action when he's stressed and can't/didn't clear it
  • Don't fight gunrunner and trickshot-Kavil in the rocks
  • Trickshot Lulo is awesome - 4dice attacks are great!

Images (less interesting shown smaller)

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UMm1NKZ.png

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qfwTqoc.png

GbjoXtC.png

Turn 6: Lulo died, Gunrunner down to 1hull

XoZT7VL.png

Turn 7: I outdid myself. Just a single shot on the Gunrunner... how?!

lJSb2K4.png

Turn 8: Gunrunner still survives...

g9l8rr6.png

Turn 9: Finally he just barely died! And of course I had lost another A-wing by now. I can't afford it to take 3 turns to deal 1 damage to a 2dice ship when I should always get 2 hits myself - from 4 attacks!

9Lbn5b7.png

Turn 10: my white one didn't have arc on either ship, and Kavil thus survived. That meant it was over. Otherwise I would have won on time (if we had played like that.) But at this point it was 85 - 92 for him already. Getting the shot from white would have increased the chance of 3 hits to roughly 88%.

VRsZgdY.png

 

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In your 4+1 list you are using 4 Green Squadron Experts with Heroic and Advanced Optics instead of 4 Blue Squadron Recruits with just Advanced Optics. The Upgrade from BSR to GSE cost a total of 12 Points (4*3) and gives you Initiative 3 and the ability to re-roll all blanks.  In my opinion flying the A-wing with initiative 1 has both pros and cons compared to initiative 3, and in a lot of match-ups it makes no difference what so ever. Have your experience with this list shown you otherwise, or do you find Heroic to be worth those points alone?

My problem when flying 4 BSR with Advanced Optics and L`ulo with Heroic and Lone Wolf have been what to use the points left over on. So far I have chosen to give L`ulo Advanced Optics and Proton Rockets, but I don`t know how much I like this build. Lone Wolf triggers just a few times each game, and I find it very difficult to set up the bullseye for Proton Rockets to trigger. However, I do not see any better builds for L`ulo, and a big bid is probably not worth it with this list. Maybe going with GSE is the best bet overall... Any ideas?  

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3 hours ago, N'Kata said:

In your 4+1 list you are using 4 Green Squadron Experts with Heroic and Advanced Optics instead of 4 Blue Squadron Recruits with just Advanced Optics. The Upgrade from BSR to GSE cost a total of 12 Points (4*3) and gives you Initiative 3 and the ability to re-roll all blanks.  In my opinion flying the A-wing with initiative 1 has both pros and cons compared to initiative 3, and in a lot of match-ups it makes no difference what so ever. Have your experience with this list shown you otherwise, or do you find Heroic to be worth those points alone? 

My problem when flying 4 BSR with Advanced Optics and L`ulo with Heroic and Lone Wolf have been what to use the points left over on. So far I have chosen to give L`ulo Advanced Optics and Proton Rockets, but I don`t know how much I like this build. Lone Wolf triggers just a few times each game, and I find it very difficult to set up the bullseye for Proton Rockets to trigger. However, I do not see any better builds for L`ulo, and a big bid is probably not worth it with this list. Maybe going with GSE is the best bet overall... Any ideas?  

So there are three thoughts for me:

  1. As you said - what else are you going to spend the points on? 12 points are not enough, and Lulo has basically everything he wants and needs.
  2. IN3 has has often good consequences. E.g. Palob is 3, so less Initiative kills against you, and sometimes you even get some in yourself.
  3. Heroic! It's a great talent for Awings. I've been arguing this all over the place, but the important difference is this (copied from reddit): " A-wings' offense lives from high percentage of 2 hits. That is why advanced optics is amazing (pushes to 81%) and that is a great addition with heroic (pushes to 86%). . [Plus, ]A-wings only have 4 health! That means the described points above are half of their health, and they are extremely close together. On top, 4 dice attacks are quite common (proton torps, Fenn, Rey, Kavil, every 3dice ship at range 1, every 3dice ship with trickshot) and also often double modified. A properly double modified 4dice attack has 77% chance to score 4 hits. Let me rephrase: most of 4dice attacks mean that the low chance of a blank will completely remove your A-wing! That is a huge risk, even if the chance is low. Heroic is amazing insurance against this. It means you will never lose a ship to one attack under the condition that you focus. Which is anyway the action of choice due to optics. "

So you get a small benefit on your offense, a great insurance on your defense, fewer IN kills, some IN kills on your own, and most importantly you have no alternative to spend the points anyway.

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Another game, another loss

Vassal, 18.1.19

4+1
vs
BobaTerochSeevorPioneer

3D5wotR.png

Just a rough overview: I did 3s, 5s, 5k, and moved back to that open space on my side with that one rock in my corner. Except Lulo, who went all around the NE rock. He moved Teroch all around the SW corner and the other ships through the rocks. After the initial joust, it was just Teroch vs my ships because Boba took some time to get around, and I still lost.

What a cool list, and a great opponent! This is one of the very, very few games where dice played a large roll. Or so I thought initially. According to lady luck, my greens were exactly on point after mods (15 when 14.625 are expected), and my reds relied heavily on my modifications: 13 instead of 15.75 hits rolled, but 10 out of 12 focus turned! Blanks were also perfectly average (11 for 10.5 expected). For my opponent, not so much. +5 evades out of his hand meant he had to spend less modifications on defense, and that meant he was able to use them on his offense (where he already had slightly lucky rolls).

But it's not about the dice. There are a couple of lessons here:

First, early swings matter, yes. It did not help that he got 3 nattie evades against my modified 4dice shots from Lulo where I was too greedy and spent the focus. Obviously I can't demand the same nattie evades against the obstructed shot back. But that is not the point. Why were there early swings? Because I chose the wrong target. Having the recent Birmingham Barons episode in mind where they tell the story of a Boba losing to a TIE swarm, I thought I try that myself again. So, target priority! I know I've written that before, but I wanted to confirm it: I can't take Boba. All I can do is take down the rest of his list and then run.

Second, don't choose the risky play with Lulo. It's tempting, but it's also stupid. I should remember why I bring Lulo in the first place.

Third, I will get average dice. I roll so many attacks that this will simply be the case. But what is not guaranteed is that I will roll so many attacks. The time on target is my key, and is easy enough with rotating arcs. But it requires an actual, identified target.

Lessons:

  1. Target priority!
    1. Don't take Boba as first target. Take Teroch as first target (in this list) even if his ability is not that dangerous anymore - he still hits hard. Seevor is annoying, but not a huge threat. So take him second.
  2. Don't throw Lulo away! He's the bait, the looming threat.
  3. Time on target is key for a swarm.

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On 1/16/2019 at 1:16 PM, GreenDragoon said:

So there are three thoughts for me:

  1. As you said - what else are you going to spend the points on? 12 points are not enough, and Lulo has basically everything he wants and needs.
  2. IN3 has has often good consequences. E.g. Palob is 3, so less Initiative kills against you, and sometimes you even get some in yourself.
  3. Heroic! It's a great talent for Awings. I've been arguing this all over the place, but the important difference is this (copied from reddit): " A-wings' offense lives from high percentage of 2 hits. That is why advanced optics is amazing (pushes to 81%) and that is a great addition with heroic (pushes to 86%). . [Plus, ]A-wings only have 4 health! That means the described points above are half of their health, and they are extremely close together. On top, 4 dice attacks are quite common (proton torps, Fenn, Rey, Kavil, every 3dice ship at range 1, every 3dice ship with trickshot) and also often double modified. A properly double modified 4dice attack has 77% chance to score 4 hits. Let me rephrase: most of 4dice attacks mean that the low chance of a blank will completely remove your A-wing! That is a huge risk, even if the chance is low. Heroic is amazing insurance against this. It means you will never lose a ship to one attack under the condition that you focus. Which is anyway the action of choice due to optics. "

So you get a small benefit on your offense, a great insurance on your defense, fewer IN kills, some IN kills on your own, and most importantly you have no alternative to spend the points anyway.

Thanks for some well thought comments. I tried three GSE with Heroic and Trick Shot in my last game vs. three Outmanouver/Advanced sensor StarVipers. The list worked well, even tough I lost miserably. Seems like I really need to learn how to fly it better. Both Trick Shot and Heroic triggered multiple times, and I even managed to roll double blank greens into another double blank greens on one occasion. (Is it just me, or does dice variance always hit you hard when you fly bad?) All in all I had a blast, and must say you was very much correct. Even though I missed my blocking options, this list was a blast to fly. Against AG 3 ships I am a bit worried about the damage output though. Even at range 1 I found it very hard to push any damage through on those StarVipers. After the game I did some math, and it seems to me as range 3 exchanges are the most favorable against StarVipers. Against almost all other platforms range 1 exchanges are most favorable for these A-wings, but the combinations of StarVipers 3 red and 3 green dice seems to change this, if my numbers are correct. (At rng 3 one on one A-wings lose the damage race by 0,162 damage, while on rng 1 A-wings loose by 0,312 damage. As a comparison, against X-wings the A wings lose the damage race one on one at rng 3 by 0,013 damage, while on rng 1 they win by 0,206 damage.) Range control and to engage with all ships in the same range-band seems to be an important key to winning with A-wings, I think.   

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Yes, there's a ton to learn!

14 minutes ago, N'Kata said:

Against AG 3 ships I am a bit worried about the damage output though.

I get that. It was also why I was weary to go for Teroch in my last game and wanted to give Boba a try again.

But the secret is, 5 attacks will overwhelm even 3 agility! Here's an example:

4 attacks (because Lulo does who-knows-what), one of them already lost the focus, against an agi3 ship with focus. The Awings will still deal 1.89 damage on average. 1damage is at 85%, 2 are at 58%, 3 are at 30%. That is quite ok, because most 3 agility ships will be gone after two or three of those rounds.

At the same time, and this is the crucial part, you are also a 3agi ship! They have a similar problem. Sure, they will have stronger attacks, but in most games there will be fewer attacks.

The next step is then to rotate your ships, and allow one or the other to be shot. Spreading damage is amazing, but 5 generics makes that harder. It is great if it works out though. Again an example from my last game (which I lost): I ended up with 3 damaged generics before the first went down. Of course Lulo died much earlier, but the generics usually don't.

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Had some more games. I just want to throw this in here, the importance of modifications and the offensive output of the list.

2iMRP59.jpg

You see how average my rolls were. -0.75 hits, -2.25 crits (so -3 overall), and instead a bit too many focus results.

The important part is that I rolled 15 hits, but had 30 after using my mods. You see that I had several 3 and 4 dice attacks with Lulo, that skews the overall a bit (to an average 2.47 dice per attack even!). However, the offensive output of this list is quite nice!

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Compiled lessons after 24 games with Lulo+4 generics. The first 12 games went 6-6, the next 12 games (mostly vassal!) went 10-2.

On general things:

  • No unforced errors. Don't complicate your maneuvers, stay simple.
  • Just focus if there is a mathematical possibility that he can get a shot
  • Don't choose the high-risk maneuver. If a bump is so critical that it ends the game then your plan is bad.
  • Use the rear arc.
  • Even if it hurts, sometimes it's better not to force a shot if it allows a series of shots further down the line
  • Time on target is key for a swarm!

On gameplans

  • Baiting/Threatening a flank is all fine. But plan your escape in a way that allows you to actually get away...
  • If you bait with a wide flank: don't mess up the timing! Lulo was too fast, and the generics still too far away to actually punish.
  • Lulo is generally the bait and endgame threat. Don't waste him.
  • Call the bluff against bombs! A single seismic early in the game is not the end of the world. Bait him to let it detonate, and remove the problem at the cost of a single shield. That is worth it!
  • Don't fight ships around the obstacles if they want to be around the obstacles

On target priority in general:

  • First target is generally the strongest firepower with lowest durability
  • Do the math on points
  • Don't remove the ship first that you see as lowest threat .

On individual ships:

  • Palob is horrible for me!
  • Don't even try to take down Boba.
  • If Kavil is in the list, take a good long look. He is very likely your primary target.
  • Going against Fang fighters? Rear arc, and run away!
  • A single Han can be jousted, easily
  • Don't underestimate the speed of Poe. He dies quickly (2-3 turns)
  • Don't underestimate the speed of Rey
  • Gunrunners: remember that it's an action, so no point in thinking about his action when he's stressed and can't/didn't clear it

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

 Don't underestimate the speed of Rey

Lando wasn't kidding when he said that it is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy, and the in game dial + boost when added to the size of that junk heap's base match that statement perfectly.

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1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Lando wasn't kidding when he said that it is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy, and the in game dial + boost when added to the size of that junk heap's base match that statement perfectly.

You know what they say about falling for the same thing twice? Well, I fell for it three times!

Different loadouts, but in the end it doesn't matter that much whether the boost is red or white: Rey always has her force charges, and that is great.

 

By the way, what I didn't add but should have because it is way more important than win statistics: The list is still so much fun to play! That's just the second time ever that I play the same list for so many games in such a short time. And yet I'm very bummed that I can't go to a tournament tomorrow and play it even more.

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3 minutes ago, arctic_rogue said:

Still running lone wolf on Lulo?

No. I switched to version 2.2 (see the very first post) with Optics+Heroic+Trickshot on Lulo. That's 1pt more expensive.

So far I don't really like optics on him to be honest. In fact, I'm again doubting Lulo in general. The main purpose is to draw attention and fire. But I'm not sure that I should do that with him in this loadout. Lonewolf had the defensive use, which was in the end better.

One alternative is to use trickshot on all generics instead of optics/lonewolf. The question is then whether Lulo is really a better choice than another generic. I think him drawing so much aggro (which it is in the end) is very useful, even if his output is not better than that of a generic.

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12 hours ago, arctic_rogue said:

Maybe his value is as a distraction.

Let him present as the biggest threat, so keep the points as low as possible on him and buff those "not so threatening" greens.  :)

Exactly! I'm not sure what sells him as larger threat. Trickshot has an upper limit of 5dice attacks (stress, r1, obstructed), Lone wolf already signals better defense in my opinion.

I still think that most people underestimate advanced optics, it doesn't evoke that immediate "oh, offense!" reaction that eg proton torps do. So my next version will be trickshots for everyone.

Edit: but then again, if all cost 40pt, will Lulo still be seen as main threat? 44vs39 makes that decision much easier - even if it shouldn't!

Edited by GreenDragoon

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

FWIW, mathematically AO is better on Lulo than the other A-Wings.

Yes, I noticed that back in this post when comparing AdvOptics and LoneWolf. (e: after that post I switched LoneWolf for Optics. I wrote that I only consider AO because the generics have it, and the following is the -unstated- reasoning)

The interesting part is when looking at two attacks:

Lulo+Heroic & Generic+Heroic+Optics has 4.148 expected damage
Lulo+Heroic+Optics & Generic+Heroic has 4.165 expected damage

It goes to 6.012 vs 6.028 on 3 attacks with 2 optics total. I never checked more, but I assume it is as close in the other cases. The gap increases a bit more if you add a defender with 2dice+focus (2.920 for Lulo w/o vs 2.977 for Lulo w/ Optics). That is virtually the same. But I believe that there are other reasons why Lulo is worse with optics than a generic.

1) Lulo is not as free to spend it due to the high Initiative and he's more valuable, whereas a generic can spend it both because he is more disposable and because he shoots usually last or close to last, giving him all the information he needs.

2) Consistent damage across the list is better because I will mess up, get bumped, not get arc, or anything like that during the game. Considering that the damage is basically the same for all, I have more flexibility.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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I just played two games with them. Both went quite well, but was also missing heroic.

My main reason for greens instead is that I don't have a good 5th ship for 56points or less. I know Jess is an option. I tried Temmin. But both don't fit well with the 4 blues. A fat Lulo with prockets is a bit overkill as far as I see it now. 54 points gets you Lulo with Heroic, LoneWolf, Optics and Prockets. That is a big threat. But is it necessary, and is it better than missing heroic on the other 4?

I think heroic has great value on massed I3 generics, both for offense and defense. The 4x 5% for an additional hit, and the defensive insurance in an alphastrike meta are both quite valuable. I think it's more valuable than a fat Lulo or a T70 for 56pt (Jess with what? R4? HLC? I've not tried it, but nothing looks convincing to me)

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You have to work pretty hard for Jess to be around 2 or more of the A wings, I tried it before, and changed her out to Temmin, with his natural added boost, he can follow the A wings, and be where he wants to be, only my opinion of course 🙂

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Have you tried this list against a real Tie-swarm yet? I have looked at your reports from games against a scum-swarm and Sloan Strikers, but would you approach a Tie-swarm the same way?  

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3 hours ago, N'Kata said:

Have you tried this list against a real Tie-swarm yet? I have looked at your reports from games against a scum-swarm and Sloan Strikers, but would you approach a Tie-swarm the same way?  

My 5th game ever with the 5 generics list was round 4 in a hyperspace tournament against 6TIEs. It was around a week before I started the thread here, so I never included the report here.

From the Krayt thread:

"Game 4 was against a swarm player. He's oldschool and knows how to fly them from back in the day. He brought just 6TIEs now, and no Iden. I set up on the side again, but split early. Two through the middle, two from the top and one... well, I always played the finger four, so what to do with a fifth? Obviously "bait tactically". Or park him in front of 6 TIEs, however you call it. After that he had the coldest green dice you can imagine, and I got the 86% hits as promised, plus crackshots, and so on. It was quite quick, but Seyn Marna managed to destroy a full health awing in two shots, so that was cool. In the end it was 200-140 due to Seyn. "

I think I'd be better in pulling it off by now, but the idea would remain the same. come from different angles, use the rear arc, zoom through the swarm with 5straight and use the rear arc some more. Also, a comment on the two games you mentioned: that's nothing to emulate in any way! I made huge mistakes in the one against the scum swarm, and the strikers was also me completely losing sight of my target.

Edited by GreenDragoon
6 TIEs, not 8

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League game, 24.1.19

4+1 v2
vs
BobaGuri

Very nice and casual-minded opponent who, above all else, enjoys playing Guri and the options she offers. We just managed 8 turns in 74min.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: Going from my experience with Boba, I knew that I can't hurt him. As he moves after me, he will always be able to move into range 1 to get at least 1 reroll + focus (han), even if he chose the wrong maneuver. Guri can't be caught anyway. These 7 pre-movement options make her unblockable and I will have a very hard time to just take her out. The 4th green agility die makes it even worse and means I will have an even harder time trying to push that first damage on. So to sum up, I have to try Guri first even though it's a horrible choice and I have an overall horrible match-up.

Deployment: See setup image. I set the 3 northernmost obstacles, he placed the other 3 (2 in the corners and the other one in the east). I setup my generics in the SW corner and Lulo in the SE corner at just below 1x1 to just barely allow me to barrel roll after a 1hard. He setup his ships at an arbitrary angle that made the whole game a bit more difficult overall.

The game plan for the first turns: Lulo will try to bait them into this free space in the south field. The generics move straight and enter that area through the western opening. The immediate drawback is that my formation is not good to move east.

How it went:

Turn 1: Generics: 5 straight, Lulo 1hard.
Turn 2: Generics 2 straight, Lulo 5 straight + boost. Boba had no shot.
Turn 3: Team 12 did 3 hards and a boost for 1, Team 34 did 2 hards + boost. Lulo did a 3 bank to get close to the rock. At this point Guri somehow landed on the rock in the SE field, but rolled blank. Boba was in the south field. I did not expect him to chase Lulo that hard because he would get 5 shots without any re-rolls on his part. But he did anyway, and I did not get my shots because that took me by surprise.
Turn 4: Decisive point! At this point I wanted to abandon the plan. But I wasn't convincing enough for myself and kept pointing at Guri. So I did 3banks and then boosted east. This landed me just south of the middle rock. I fully expected him to try to get behind the swarm. But Guri somehow managed to pass the next rock, and this time it cost him a shield - and the stealth upgrade! Lulo did a 2hard + boost, Boba came closer again, but did not boost into R1 again. Guri had no shot, Boba took a shield off Lulo (now in 2h1s) and lost one shield against the one generic facing south. The 3 generics took 1 shield off Guri (2-3 expected).
Turn 5: Decisive point! Here I blundered hard! I expected him to outmaneuver my generics with Guri, so I blocked 2 pre-movement rolls (which was stupid) and turned to rear arcs (which was worse), plus I butchered options for my next turn for 2 ships (the worst of all). However, Guri fled northwest through the rocks, meaning I wouldn't get shots. Lulo kept taunting and dragging Boba, this time with a 3 bank along the edge.
Turn 6: Generics were a bit in a mess. Nr 4 had to circle around the rock to the east gutter. 1 and 3 could follow Guri, and Nr 2 had to cross the rock and lost a shield. For Lulo I was thinking about going 1 hard and roll back to block a 3 bank. But then I reconsidered, because that was too obvious and he should of course do a 1 bank plus boost if necessary. Little did I know that he fully intended to do a 3 bank, but accidentally set a 2bank - which I would not have been able to block anyway. So, in the end lucky me did a 3 bank again, and boosted towards where I suspected Guri to end up. Here my thinking was the following: Either he comes in front of Guri, or he adjusts with a pre-movement and ends up in-between that rock triangle - where my two generics have better shots. He did move in front of Lulo. We traded shots. Lulo of course died, but also took Guri to half (1s1h). That's 44pt vs 51pt, so I was ahead.
Turn 7: Nr 1 turned to face south-west in-between two rocks, nr3 did a 1hard just south of that middle rock  and then boosted west (another mistake - range 1 is bad). Nr 4 was by now coming around the NE corner and zooming along the northern gutter facing west, and nr2 tried to catch up. Boba did a 1 hard to face east. He took 2s off nr3 (I rolled evade-blank-blank) and I must have dealt another shield to Boba.
Turn 8: Nr 3 fled towards the SW corner. Nr1 turned northwest and switched to rear arc. Nr 4 came around the NW rock and chased Guri. Nr 2 ended almost where nr3 was before, behind the rock and this time facing . Guri came around the rock and avoided shots yet again, and Boba did a 1bank+boost.
Turn 9: Final turn! At this point I'm slightly behind in points. My win condition is to either get half points on Boba (1s1h), or finish off Guri (3h). I should have tried for Boba, but he was already close to that SE rock again, while I had 1 ship SW, and 2 NW. So no chance for me to get there. I decided on Guri, and he apparently wanted to help me by placing Guri on yet another rock (now the middle one). This gave me 2 shots, one range 2 and one range 1. And that put my chance to win at 44%. unfortunately, I didn't do a single damage.

Lessons/Conclusion:

I don't know. Honestly, I made two mistakes. I expected him to outfly the generics and reacted to that without necessity. And I didn't immediately switch to shoot Boba. But... that wasn't really wrong. Moving down on Boba would have prompted him to do a different barrel roll (or none entirely) and his maneuver would have landed Guri at R1 of my generics without. I did not want to take that.

With this setup, I should maybe have done the feigned flight and fight with everything in that open space. But I wanted to let him enter the area uncontested and make it harder to get out.

My homework is to figure out how I can best develop a proper formation when I have to move east.

 

qVxOxF5.jpg

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