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Velvetelvis

Now that all factions only have about 4 ships for tournaments...

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Of course I can't provide numbers to " everyone wants to play hyperspace instead". But it's not  necessary really.

Locally , our player base is switching to hyperspace. Why? Because that's what the store champs and regional sized events will be using. 

This is way more relevant to way more players then the few sporadic large extended events.

I would be shocked if that doesnt continue to other areas as the next few months roll on to the new season. 

Time will tell if the dream of hyperspace being better to bring in new players can be realised or not. Since 2.0 launched our area has lost about 25 percent of its players. They aren't coming back. And no new blood has stepped in. ( not making any causal arguments here.just saying).

Additionally. If anyone enjoys the podcasting community around x wing. You will probably notice that the common talking points are " hyperspace is better for such and such reason and people who prefer extended are wrong ."

 

Also...mentioning these topics also gets the shills to come out in forum threads which was kind of unexpected.

 

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1 minute ago, Velvetelvis said:

Additionally. If anyone enjoys the podcasting community around x wing. You will probably notice that the common talking points are " hyperspace is better for such and such reason and people who prefer extended are wrong ."

That's a question of opinion, and you are entitled to your own. If you listened to Scum&Villainy, you could hear starslinger72 making the case for extended and against hyperspace. The debate keeps shooting forth every now and then, so feel free to make your own contribution.

Maybe talk to your local player base? I'm sure you'll find others who want to play extended. Talk to your FLGS to host an extended tournament with custom prize support if you can't get an actual kit, or if you don't have leftovers from the kits.

There is no reason why the two formats can't coexist - except reasons that local communities create themselves.

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1 hour ago, Velvetelvis said:

Locally , our player base is switching to hyperspace. Why? Because that's what the store champs and regional sized events will be using. 

That's interesting, because I haven't heard of any local tournaments around here (Kansas City 😅) that ran "2.0 Only" or any that plan on doing Hyperspace. Outside of one Battle of Yavin thematic tournament, most everything has been Extended to my knowledge.

Edited by SpiderMana
Didn’t mean to imply my “local” is the same as VelvetElvis’s local” whoops.

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5 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

 

I dont think there can be both.

 

That’s what i honestly fear.

I see multiple serious problems.

1) The community in certain areas not in the US, even bigger countries like germany seems to be already fading away. Not everyone, not even former tournament players has been willing or able to convert to 2.0. Even if that was a necessary change. But now imposing 2 competitive formats, (or forcing hyperspace upon the playerbase as the future only format, because it kinda looks like it more and more) is one more step that divides people. Just like in this forum it is the case around the players of the world. And there are thinly populated X-Wing communities already. This might be the breaking point. I see even more people moving on already, that just halfheartedly invested in 2.0, but now won’t accept Hyperspace... for different reasons.

I have repeatedly said it but will do so again. We are not Magic the Gathering where you find glad customers for different formats. I fear this is not going the way FFG would like it to go...

2) Balance, but how and for what?

The reason why i can’t buy the story with the 2 happily coexisting competitive formats is the question for which one of the 2 metas will they balance the ships? Something might be and will be too strong in Hyperspace format. Then there will be the need to balance it (aka giving it the nerfbat). But something that is too good in Hyperspace, will often not be a concern in Extended. So after a nerf it will become underwhelming there. This is a serious concern.

Which system will be prevalent for balancing purposes? This is a question FFG will need to answet very soon. And i feel that system will be the one that survives.

3) This might be more of a personal distaste, but i know plenty of players that would agree with me.

Sorry, hyperspace limitations don’t make the game fresh, they make it bland and boring. People can’t use their full imagination building lists, and some can not play their favorite ships. And even for the netlisters, the choice will be much narrower.

We will very probably see a meta that is dominated by only 1-2 top lists that we will see over and over on top tables. Less competitive choice, less counters to it... nuff said.

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Anecdotal evidence only, but my local shop has just held 2 of its 3 Wave 1 events. These were on a weekday evening, so low turnouts were expected.

Quickbuild: 8 players, more than just our regular players.

Battle of Yavin: 12 players, including 3 who hadn't played 1st ed at all.

Our Wave Championship (extended) will be in January and sold out (16 players) a week after we publicised it.

 

Will Hyperspace dominate here in the UK? Possibly, but it's unlikely to be the sole format, because there are a lot of players who like alternative formats and like using different ships. If you like extended, ask your local store to run extended events. If you like weird list restrictions, canvas others and see if you can organise that to be played instead. If you like Hyperspace, get that run too!

I like that there can't be a single 'solved meta' because of these options. I also like it that my basic X-Wings are viable in almost all cases; I like it that the game is better than in 1st ed; I like it that we have had an influx of new players.

I see no rational reason for the doom and gloom locally (unlike some of you, where your local scene isn't expanding) - but there is a big case for people like me (and the rest of us I've read comments from in this forum) feeling pessimistic and it is not related to the actual game: many of us are somewhat autistic and one of the key indicators of this is feeling threatened by change, any change, whether we can see it as being a positive change or not. And not being able to foresee the effect of any change makes it feel even more threatening. This is an emotional reaction, not intellectual or rational, and it evokes negative feelings. Be aware of that, don't assume that the other people posting are reacting rationally.

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Wha...

If they don’t want to play Hyperspace they don’t have to.

If that feels like the only competitive format, and that’s a problem to you, then make your own tournament. Keep playing your preferred formats. Do literally anything to make your opinion known to FFG.

Leaving because the game feels like it might be heading in that direction doesn’t make much sense to me, and will only encourage FFG to continue in the direction they’re going. Fewer players will hurt them, sure, but it won’t help the community or the state of the game, and that should go without saying.

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1 hour ago, Velvetelvis said:

Of course I can't provide numbers to " everyone wants to play hyperspace instead". But it's not  necessary really.

Locally , our player base is switching to hyperspace. Why? Because that's what the store champs and regional sized events will be using. 

This is way more relevant to way more players then the few sporadic large extended events.

I would be shocked if that doesnt continue to other areas as the next few months roll on to the new season. 

Time will tell if the dream of hyperspace being better to bring in new players can be realised or not. Since 2.0 launched our area has lost about 25 percent of its players. They aren't coming back. And no new blood has stepped in. ( not making any causal arguments here.just saying).

Additionally. If anyone enjoys the podcasting community around x wing. You will probably notice that the common talking points are " hyperspace is better for such and such reason and people who prefer extended are wrong ."

 

Also...mentioning these topics also gets the shills to come out in forum threads which was kind of unexpected.

 

Very well written, and true.

And yet i can’t help and see the fundamental hidden problems behind your words for X-Wing.

Yes, a good part of the community sits in store champs and smaller events. Where Hyperspace gets imposed on us.

A part of people don’t like hyperspace and a lot of people simply don’t like if stuff gets forced upon them.

Worstcase consequence: they also quit.

On top of the 25% that we lost because of 2.0 (About 25% people gone is actually pretty accurate for my region too)

I am also very pessimistic that hyperspace will bring new players. Why of all things would it, actually?

So what i see coming is that FFG are really shooting themselves in the knee here, and the question is if X-Wing will linp on for much longer. This might be breaking point reached very soon.

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11 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Wha...

If they don’t want to play Hyperspace they don’t have to.

If that feels like the only competitive format, and that’s a problem to you, then make your own tournament. Keep playing your preferred formats. Do literally anything to make your opinion known to FFG.

Leaving because the game feels like it might be heading in that direction doesn’t make much sense to me, and will only encourage FFG to continue in the direction they’re going. Fewer players will hurt them, sure, but it won’t help the community or the state of the game, and that should go without saying.

Sure you can say that you don’t care what the rest of the players thinks and if they leave or not.

But how much more hurt can X-Wing take before the  lights go out?

Dude, the players ARE the game. And if you don’t care about the first, maybe you should care about the latter...

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1 minute ago, ForceM said:

Dude, the players ARE the game. And if you don’t care about the first, maybe you should care about the latter...

Exactly my point. If FFG goes somewhere the players don’t wanna follow, that doesn’t mean they can’t still play how they want to, and they can most definitely influence their local establishments’ event play.

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10 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Exactly my point. If FFG goes somewhere the players don’t wanna follow, that doesn’t mean they can’t still play how they want to, and they can most definitely influence their local establishments’ event play.

Still, store champs are where the majority of the semi-competitive players (and that’s a really large part of overall community) sit. And that’s exactly where Hyperspace is imposed on us.

Seriously now, homebrewed alternative formats and events (playing how you want...) are not what pays the bills for X-Wing.

Therefore, this is REALLY risky play by FFG. My personal distaste for Hyperspace taken aside, if this doesn’t work out the way they like, and people turn their backs on X-Wing because of this, that could mean game over for the game. Less players mean less income, which keeps games alive after all.

And that’s something nobody here would probably like.

Edited by ForceM

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My original thought on this had to with I was driving along listening to a podcast  and I thought....none of this interests me. I tried another podcast and it was more extended meta breakdown. And another....now I have to listen to music instead.

I no longer care about meta breakdowns for extended. It feels irrelevant and uninteresting. Like a home brew.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ForceM said:

I see multiple serious problems.

That's just your dark tainted glasses. But keep trying to summon these ghosts and eventually you might get a selffulfilled prophecy.

You keep trying to push this narrative, that somehow extended and hyperspace are mutually exclusive. They are not.

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

(or forcing hyperspace upon the playerbase as the future only format, because it kinda looks like it more and more)

What on earth are you talking about? Hyperspace literally just started 9 days ago. Of course people are trying it now, and of course FFG is now pushing to also establish hyperspace after extended has been well established with several large tournaments. Calling it 'future only format' is misguided and misleading.

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

Just like in this forum it is the case around the players of the world

I see people like you trying to force a false dichotomy, where only one format can be played. But there is no such thing, both formats can coexist perfectly fine.

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

Sorry, hyperspace limitations don’t make the game fresh, they make it bland and boring. People can’t use their full imagination building lists, and some can not play their favorite ships. And even for the netlisters, the choice will be much narrower.

 We will very probably see a meta that is dominated by only 1-2 top lists that we will see over and over on top tables. Less competitive choice, less counters to it... nuff said.

This is surprisingly honest and revealing. But extended was in fact dominated by few lists, above all else the "squad of legends". So it is also wrong.

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

The reason why i can’t buy the story with the 2 happily coexisting competitive formats is the question for which one of the 2 metas will they balance the ships?

You didn't even give FFG the chance. No, you start from the worst assumption. This is exactly what I was talking about @Bucknife, only pessimistic nay-saying.

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

I am also very pessimistic that hyperspace will bring new players. Why of all things would it, actually?

What is your alternative? That the main competitive format is unavailable for new players? That they have to buy 1.0 and conversion kits if they want to actually participate, because they just have the rerelease hyperspace stuff? Maybe that works the first year or even two, but how long are the conversion kits and 1.0 available? No, if FFG is interested in a healthy community they have to push hyperspace. The extended format is an olive branch, a compromise with 1.0 players. But they did the extra mile and try to force a coexistence. And it works, because we are able to play and like both formats. Crazy in times of more and more extremism, I know.

Edited by GreenDragoon
Sp

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20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

You keep trying to push this narrative, that somehow extended and hyperspace are mutually exclusive. They are not.

In theory they obviously are not, but in practice most communities might focus on one or the other, depending on the tournament availability and the preference of FLGS regulars. 

 

I don't think most people will play both regularly or enjoy both equally. For competitive players it's a matter of practice. They want to practice for their target event(s) with their list. For casual players, at least for most casual players I know, they get attached to ships and lists they like to fly (or just what they own) , which also kinda dictates the format they want to play. 

 

That being said, I think FFG will keep pushing Hyperspace more and more, because it's the format that's accessible to new players. If a new guy wants to get into Extended right now, most top squads are behind a pretty big pay and availability wall. Take Scom for example. If you se Boba/Palob/4-LOM on a stream and want to run that. Beside the expected purchases (the Slave I expansion and the Scum Conversion Kit) you need to track down 2 OOP ships (the Hwk-290band the G-1A) and either buy a Rebel Conversion Kit or also track a Moldy Crow card separately. 

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18 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

but in practice most communities might focus on one or the other, depending on the tournament availability and the preference of FLGS regulars. 

I don't think most people will play both regularly or enjoy both equally. For competitive players it's a matter of practice. They want to practice for their target event(s) with their list.

Might. We don't know yet, and would do good to sit back and foster diversity instead of divisiveness.

FFG says that tournaments for both are coming. Heck, I had a hyperspace last sunday and an extended tomorrow. So I will practice for both. Because both can be fun in their own right, and one does not exclude me from the other.

You don't have to enjoy them equally. It is fine to prefer one over the other. But liking one does not mean hating the other.

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8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

From who?  You?

X-Wing is an international game, with an international community.  And there's a reason why the international events are - without exception - using the extended format.

While I agree that currently there intention is to continue with both formats, as they’ve (FFG) said there intention is to have one format eventually. I can foresee by the 3rd Quarter of 2019 “Hyperspace” being the only FFG OP supported format after the next System Open Series ends. 

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18 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's because they don't exist as valid factions yet. Why even comment this?

It was in the title, they are factions, but yes a faction of 0 ships is not a valid faction

15 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Last time Star Wars fans boycotted something, something actually really really good got hurt for it.

Really, what was that?

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19 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

From who?  You?

X-Wing is an international game, with an international community.  And there's a reason why the international events are - without exception - using the extended format.

That's horrifically simplistic.

 

Everyone is using extended because 1) hyperspace didn't exist, and 2) with just 3 factions, "second edition" format was small.

 

Guess what? If they want to hold hyperspace trials, they'll be hyperspace format.


Know those hyperspace events at system opens? Hyperspace.


That "without exception" is about to change...

200.webp

 

 

But going back to the fun stuff. At least this is about to be a possibility:

 

200w.webp
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cgriffith said:

While I agree that currently there intention is to continue with both formats, as they’ve (FFG) said there intention is to have one format eventually. 

I'm honestly curious when FFG said that they intended to have one format, as I don't remember ever reading that anywhere. Everything I've seen has been them promoting both sides of the competitive ladder. Do you have a source on this- I'd really be interested to see it.

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Might. We don't know yet, and would do good to sit back and foster diversity instead of divisiveness.

FFG says that tournaments for both are coming. Heck, I had a hyperspace last sunday and an extended tomorrow. So I will practice for both. Because both can be fun in their own right, and one does not exclude me from the other.

You don't have to enjoy them equally. It is fine to prefer one over the other. But liking one does not mean hating the other.

You don't need to hate the other. It's kinda stupid to hate a game format IMO. However it's only natural to want to play the one you like more most of the time.

 

I think it's overly optimistic to hope there won't be any division in the community over this. There will be, but some degree of division is unavoidable in any game that launches a new edition. 

 

Personally, my worries regarding the 2 formats come from a very different direction: balance. FFG didn't exactly get additional resources for 2.0 (it's still the same 3 designers) so now, the guys that were barely able to balance a 3 faction game with 2/year releases have to balance a 7 faction game, across 2 formats with a much more aggressive release schedule. I don't think it's doable, so they will eventually have to cut corners somewhere. 

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11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's just your dark tainted glasses. But keep trying to summon these ghosts and eventually you might get a selffulfilled prophecy.

You keep trying to push this narrative, that somehow extended and hyperspace are mutually exclusive. They are not.

What on earth are you talking about? Hyperspace literally just started 9 days ago. Of course people are trying it now, and of course FFG is now pushing to also establish hyperspace after extended has been well established with several large tournaments. Calling it 'future only format' is misguided and misleading.

I see people like you trying to force a false dichotomy, where only one format can be played. But there is no such thing, both formats can coexist perfectly fine.

This is surprisingly honest and revealing. But extended was in fact dominated by few lists, above all else the "squad of legends". So it is also wrong.

You didn't even give FFG the chance. No, you start from the worst assumption. This is exactly what I was talking about @Bucknife, only pessimistic nay-saying.

What is your alternative? That the main competitive format is unavailable for new players? That they have to buy 1.0 and conversion kits if they want to actually participate, because they just have the rerelease hyperspace stuff? Maybe that works the first year or even two, but how long are the conversion kits and 1.0 available? No, if FFG is interested in a healthy community they have to push hyperspace. The extended format is an olive branch, a compromise with 1.0 players. But they did the extra mile and try to force a coexistence. And it works, because we are able to play and like both formats. Crazy in times of more and more extremism, I know.

In the long run they are clearly trying to push hyperspace as the only format. And i just don’t see the community in my region and many others being big enough to have both coexist the way you would wish for.

Honestly, this would be fine as long as they did what they initially said, which is that in the end Hyperspace=Extended. 

They made store champs Hyperspace. This is where most competition takes place in the end. So in the long run this is the deciding factor.

And i would bet my money on Systems and the other large tournaments becoming hyperspace too after the current year or season of it ends.

Also i am not forcing any split on anyone here. You can see for yourself that there is a lot of controversy about this going on on youtube and the forums. There ate people that don’t like at all where this is going. Players. Customers!

The Extended meta at the moment is excellent by the way. There are at least 6-7 archetypes and their variants that won tornaments. From swarms to Ace support list to Elite alphastrikers to Bomber swarms with ace or support. A lot is possible. Which is actually not at all the case with 4 ships per faction.

Next, however, you talk about the new players... What new players do you mean? All 3 of them?!?

Seriously now, i have seen lose the X-Wing community way too many people when 2.0 came along. I still think that was very necessary. Now, very shortly after hyoerspace will scare off more players.

No, i am not overly negative. This IS happening right now.

And i have not seen any new player get introduced for months now in my playgroup. Just people walking away. This concerns me of course.

If you were new and wanted to play extended, you could buy surplus 1.0 ships of any kind for as low as 7€. I have seen large ships for 11€ Plus a conversion kit. (For comparison, i bought RZ-2 A-Wings for 23€ a piece!) This is cheaper than many hyperspace legal lists and will be possible for as long as the stock is not exhausted. Looking at the minuscule new player number, that will be a very vers long time!

So where is the problem? That’s surely not a reason why we need hyperspace...

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